• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • See https://www.intpforum.com/threads/incident-of-2018-08-13.27381/

Ask BAP

Local time
Today, 08:02
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
38
Location
My_personal_universe
Hi, BigApplePie, I have a question. Given that we only have a limited amount of resources like time, money, energy, knowledge, a lot of future success depends on our actions in immediate future, because sometimes we only get like one or two chances to achieve what we need. Since it is so, the more accurate our understanding of what the future is likely to be, the better our actions to shape our path in the future. What I would like to know is what techniques you recommend to find out what the future might be. I m talking about the future (~10 years) of global economics, technology, business, personal life, everything that might demand immediate action. No mysticism, just how do you recommend analyzing past and present to have as good an insight as humanly possible?
 

Melkor

*Silent antagonist*
Local time
Today, 05:02
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
5,764
Location
Béal feirste
Would you run away with me? <3
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
That sounds like a deep question which I'm no expert on answering.
Hi, BigApplePie, I have a question. Given that we only have a limited amount of resources like time, money, energy, knowledge, a lot of future success depends on our actions in immediate future, because sometimes we only get like one or two chances to achieve what we need.
I'd say a lot of future successes could achieved if one keeps at it at any point in time. Depends on what one is after. So you must be talking about where a decision has to be made where there is no or little chance of turning back.

Since it is so, the more accurate our understanding of what the future is likely to be, the better our actions to shape our path in the future. What I would like to know is what techniques you recommend to find out what the future might be. I m talking about the future (~10 years) of global economics, technology, business, personal life, everything that might demand immediate action. No mysticism, just how do you recommend analyzing past and present to have as good an insight as humanly possible?
There are writers on "futurism" for years into the future. Google futurism. Your Q is very general to ask about specifics like global economics, technology, business, personal life. I'd say study each one separately. Study macro economics, know yourself for personal life. Futurists will speculate on technology which could take any turn. Therefore become as technically able as you can so you can be flexibile enough to take advantage of change quickly.

You can study history to get a feel for what is needed to know to take the measure of how things can change. If doing all that sounds like too much, then specialize so you will be adept at something.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Would you run away with me? <3
Until my calf muscle heals I would have to walk, not run. (I got a cramp while asleep.)

If I were to run away with you it might depend on where we go and if you are nice to me. Of course you could regret it if I weren't nice to you. Sometimes I can't don't control myself.

How's Ireland(?) going?

Got potatoes?
 
Local time
Today, 08:02
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
54
Location
Russia
By "trick" you mean I had some motive to expose some vulnerability you had so I could take advantage? No that was farthest from my mind. On the contrary I wanted to help you. (Note that this is in public, not a PM. So someone else could take advantage.) What I was interested in was you had a situation in your life. This medium may be too difficult to clarify that. For example I don't have an everyday vision of your relationship with your father. I wasn't able to draw you out more on that so I stopped.

I can make a general statement though. There are three possible ways to deal with dad.
(1) Stay away as much as possible.
(2) Get aggressive and eventually gain power.
(3) Try to understand him and show love.

The latter is hardest. Sticking with general statements, you can find out what your dad's background has been and what makes him like he is today. Then it is possible you can stand back from how he affects you and see his situation. This is what I've done with my dad. I started out by hating my own dad.
By "trick", I meant intending a different outcome from what your words imply. People trick each other all the time, nothing bad about it.

For instance, right now you're tricking me into telling you what I think about you without asking me directly. I am ambivalent towards the general idea, but I disapprove of its current implementation: you couldn't have chosen a worse topic for that.


Short answer to that next part: I've already tried (3) as a teen - analyzed his past, his current state, his actions - and kept on trying to reform him for a few years, but it didn't work out and even made the situation worse. After that, I've settled for (1): being emotionally distant leaves me free to work on my own issues, which do need quite a lot of work.

Your belief that all people's relationships with their parents can change for the better does not align with my observations; in other words, you didn't account for parents who actively resist their offspring's attempts to improve the relationship. Additionally, the inherent implication that my family is identical to yours and therefore failing or refusing to improve my relationship with my father makes me inferior to you is insulting. I urge you to drop the subject before our disagreements on the topic happen to spark hostilities.
 
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
1,866
Additionally, the inherent implication that my family is identical to yours and therefore failing or refusing to improve my relationship with my father makes me inferior to you is insulting. I urge you to drop the subject before our disagreements on the topic happen to spark hostilities.
Probably this is in your control. You bumped the ask BAP thread to rekindle a months-old discussion and now your feelings have been hurt over it.
 

Reluctantly

Resident disMember
Local time
Yesterday, 19:02
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
3,120
I want to try an MMO, since I haven't played one in a while. I've ruled out everything, except FFXIV and The Secret World.

This is what I'm thinking. Secret World looks fun for its story-telling and the atmosphere seems completely different and fun. I like dark stuff; people say it makes me creepy, but horror and gore are interesting and comical to me - I can't help it. But anyway, I liked the immersion behind FFXI, but quit about half-way through for all the problems it had. Supposedly, A Realm Reborn got rid of all those problems. So now I can't decide between the immersion of FFXIV or the dark story-telling of Secret World.

Which one should I get?
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I want to try an MMO, since I haven't played one in a while. I've ruled out everything, except FFXIV and The Secret World.

This is what I'm thinking. Secret World looks fun for its story-telling and the atmosphere seems completely different and fun. I like dark stuff; people say it makes me creepy, but horror and gore are interesting and comical to me - I can't help it. But anyway, I liked the immersion behind FFXI, but quit about half-way through for all the problems it had. Supposedly, A Realm Reborn got rid of all those problems. So now I can't decide between the immersion of FFXIV or the dark story-telling of Secret World.

Which one should I get?
I can't help you much as I'm not familiar with computer games and haven't played one ever. If the Secret World is different, I'd try something different. The other one risks some problems still remain.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I urge you to drop the subject before our disagreements on the topic happen to spark hostilities.
:facepalm:

I am going to talk about myself, telling the story of MY father. If I didn't say something that would not be fair to you.

On 2nd thought I wonder if I'm ready to tell it. I can't just lift out some pictures and expect them to tell the whole story. Furthermore I'm not sure I want to tell this: Fathers & Sons. Who can tell a man's life?
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
By "trick", I meant intending a different outcome from what your words imply. People trick each other all the time, nothing bad about it.
I tell myself to always try to be be straight. That's my ideal and the way I've tried to be with you. I never wish to imply anything. Unfortunately people are human and will read into what I've said things that aren't there.

For instance, right now you're tricking me into telling you what I think about you without asking me directly. I am ambivalent towards the general idea, but I disapprove of its current implementation: you couldn't have chosen a worse topic for that.
That never crossed my mind. You don't have to tell me anything about what you think of me. I had contemplated posting " Fathers & Sons" for more than a week and hope it says something without implying anything. It's for you or anyone to decide. With you I am on the lookout for what you might confuse me with your father. I half expected it. Not anyone's fault. Let me continue ...

Short answer to that next part: I've already tried (3) as a teen - analyzed his past, his current state, his actions - and kept on trying to reform him for a few years, but it didn't work out and even made the situation worse. After that, I've settled for (1): being emotionally distant leaves me free to work on my own issues, which do need quite a lot of work.

Your belief that all people's relationships with their parents can change for the better does not align with my observations; in other words, you didn't account for parents who actively resist their offspring's attempts to improve the relationship. Additionally, the inherent implication that my family is identical to yours and therefore failing or refusing to improve my relationship with my father makes me inferior to you is insulting. I urge you to drop the subject before our disagreements on the topic happen to spark hostilities.
I did not, that I'm aware of, say anything about your relationship can get to the better. What you CAN do is change what's inside your head even if you can't change them. With (3) one can eventually step back with understanding that and how someone if flawed. With that it becomes easier to do (1).

You are not inferior to me. For all I know you may be up considerably and be superior to me ... depending on how one defines that scale.
 
Local time
Today, 08:02
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
54
Location
Russia
Probably this is in your control. You bumped the ask BAP thread to rekindle a months-old discussion and now your feelings have been hurt over it.
I bumped the thread to fulfill an unspoken obligation that resulted from his request. I asked him the question he wanted me to ask, exchanged niceties in the form of a polite discussion, then bam! He changes the subject and starts trying to convince me that he knows my father better than I do. That's kind of a berserk button, right there; the reason it is so shall be explained in the last paragraph of this post.

But point taken. I could have and most likely should have worded the response less harshly. It is his thread, after all.

I am going to talk about myself, telling the story of MY father. If I didn't say something that would not be fair to you.

On 2nd thought I wonder if I'm ready to tell it. I can't just lift out some pictures and expect them to tell the whole story. Furthermore I'm not sure I want to tell this: Fathers & Sons. Who can tell a man's life?
Thank you for sharing this. It explains why you still have some faith in humanity left. It also explains why you used to be insecure about your role on this forum, but that's beside the point.

Now that I have enough information to understand your side of the story, I apologize for my harsh words: you are not to blame for misunderstanding my mental state, since you didn't have the knowledge needed to interpret my explanations. If you are willing, I will continue the discussion and explain my conclusions in the context of your life so as to return the courtesy you have extended me.


First of all, I'd like to point out that my experiences and beliefs do not invalidate the abuse you have experienced. Neglectful parents are traumatizing their children, there's no question about that. But they're traumatizing their children differently from other kinds of abusers, with different consequences.

I'm not sure I can share the story of my relationship with my father - recalling all the bullshit he put me through fans the flames of my rage like nothing else can, and I'm told that patricide is a socially unacceptable course of action, which means that I have to keep the rage under control at all times - but here's a brief list of the differences between our relationships with our fathers:

1) Your father ignored you, brushed you off. While it is, indeed, a form of abuse, fearing to ask your father a question and feeling alone because he ignores you is not the same as tiptoeing around him all the time, carefully wording your responses to him, dreading the moment when he comes home from work, basically bending over backwards so as to not set him off.

Do you know why I took that kind of precautions? Because if someone set him off, he'd hound them for days, screaming at them, gaslighting them, accusing them of things they did not do, waking them up with loud noises in the middle of the night, violating their personal space and walking into their room uninvited just to tell them what an ungrateful piece of shit they are.
Not to mention that he'd lash out at everyone in the family, not just the "offender", in "subtle" ways, such as cutting off our only source of income and then blaming us for not buying any food for him(which we couldn't do without money).

2) Your story is that of an absent father figure, jealousy and teenage rebellion gone bad. I'm not going to say that you're to blame for it, but I must notice that my teenage rebellion never happened: it was too costly for the entire family if I confronted him. Simply put, the circumstances have denied me the freedom to rebel.

In other words, my relationship with my father over the years was that of a cold war: I was living not merely with a despicable man, but a hostile one, and that hostile man held a lot of power over my life and choices.

3) Your father's abuse is easier to forgive, because the abuse depended entirely on your actions, it was under your control; it was an extension of your freedom... even though he was actually accountable for the abuse.

And my abuse? It wasn't under my control at all, despite what good ol' dad claimed when he was trying to guilt-trip me. He abused people whenever the hell he felt like it; the only time they had a choice was when they decided whether to confront him(and give him an excuse to escalate the abuse, all the way to smashing furniture and cutting off money) or take the abuse silently(which diminished their self-worth more than confronting him did). He really loves giving his victims a painful choice like that.

That particular difference explains why you feel guilt over hating your father and I don't. That, or maybe my emotions are just broken. I don't know for sure.

4) Your father's relationship with you was that of "tough love" that you appear to advocate: he didn't demand anything from you, he didn't threaten you. To be fair, he did neglect you, which incorporates a certain level of abuse into the relationship.
My father, on the other hand, did his best to punish me for actions that he didn't like, crush my personality, enslave me emotionally. It's not tough love in the least; it's abuse, pure and simple. I have nothing to love or thank him for. Not. One. Thing. Not even my continued existence, which has been quite miserable up to this point in no small part due to his actions.

5) When you were young, you were jealous of your father, and when you grew up, you started to feel guilty about the way you treated him.
When I was young, I was afraid of my father, and when I grew up, I became enraged at him for what he did to me.
That's kind of a big hint as to the nature of our respective father-son relationships, isn't it?


The one thing that our stories do have in common is that we both hated our fathers and yet became similar to them over the course of our lives. You grew up to be the ordinary, "weak" person that you used to think of as despicable, and I have noticed not too long ago that, if I let go of guilt, I actually enjoy making people miserable with accidental cutting remarks. (If I don't let go of guilt, I inadvertently wound others anyway, but then I at least feel bad about it and start making amends.) The irony is pretty freaking rich, if you ask me.


To summarize: your experiences and mine differ very much. It wouldn't hurt you to accept that there are people with even crappier fathers than yours, the same way I accept that there are people who experienced much worse abuse than I did.

Acknowledging this doesn't diminish the role of abuse in your life, but it makes you recognize that sometimes your experiences and your ways of dealing with the abuse can't be extrapolated onto everyone else.

And not extrapolating your experiences onto other people is, unfortunately, a pretty important part of dealing with emotionally unstable survivors of abuse; if you extrapolate, it implies that you think you know them better than they do, which is remarkably similar to what most emotionally abusive parents to do their children.
(But it's not like advice can help an abused person, anyway. You're not their psychotherapist - they didn't choose you to help them - and most of the time they simply aren't ready for advice in the first place.)
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
94th I'm glad we are back on a friendly ground. I'll have to read your message more carefully later as the wife is urging me to get out of my chair and go outside. Our fathers are very different and that means we have something to explore. Maybe it will turn out I face too much weakness and you too much strength. That is way over-simplified but I just say that not for accuracy but for something to explore.

I think there is another msg I sent you that crossed with yours. ...later.
 
Local time
Today, 08:02
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
54
Location
Russia
1) I tell myself to always try to be be straight. That's my ideal and the way I've tried to be with you. I never wish to imply anything. Unfortunately people are human and will read into what I've said things that aren't there.

2) That never crossed my mind. You don't have to tell me anything about what you think of me. I had contemplated posting " Fathers & Sons" for more than a week and hope it says something without implying anything. It's for you or anyone to decide. With you I am on the lookout for what you might confuse me with your father. I half expected it. Not anyone's fault. Let me continue ...

3) I did not, that I'm aware of, say anything about your relationship can get to the better. What you CAN do is change what's inside your head even if you can't change them. With (3) one can eventually step back with understanding that and how someone if flawed. With that it becomes easier to do (1).

You are not inferior to me. For all I know you may be up considerably and be superior to me ... depending on how one defines that scale.
1) Integrity is a good value to have. But it's also one of the easiest values to violate. There always will be implications in anything you write, intentional or unintentional; the contradiction between an accidental implication within your words and your actual intentions is the trick I was talking about.
Perhaps you have already noticed how your public expressions of self-doubt, despite implying that you are not worthy of being validated, are intended to reaffirm your self-image by letting other people publicly provide evidence against the statements symbolizing your doubts. That's an example of 'tricking' as I understand it.

2) I'm not mistaking you for my father; you are way too laid-back about criticism to look even remotely like a narcissist. Thus far your behavior has been more similar to that of my well-meaning distant relatives, who blame me for his irresponsible decisions because "you should have tried harder to make him do the right thing; you're his family, for god's sake!".

That said, the above passage has ceased to apply to you when you've started the Fathers & Sons thread. You were obviously not engaging in the time-honored practice of victim-blaming, you were just trying to explain my experiences by extrapolating your own.

3) Oh, I see. My bad; I seem to have twisted your response's meaning by cross-checking it with the context of our previous discussions.

I'll have to read your message more carefully later as the wife is urging me to get out of my chair and go outside.
Your wife sounds interesting. What's her type and how does she manage to get you out of the Comfy Chair whevever she wants to? I usually have to stay in the Comfy Chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at eleven.
 
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
5,633
Location
subjective
BAP

I wanted to know what type you think I am. I was thinking INFJ but that was from Auburns physiology expressions critique. I only palatially understand people. From your encounters with INFJs they don't seem to like your analysis. I'm deep into my Individuation process so I cant tell where I began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation#Carl_Jung
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
From your encounters with INFJs they don't seem to like your analysis.
No they wouldn't. IMO to "like" any analysis a full "P" perception would have to be presented. That means including their "J" presentation. It's like them presenting the THESIS and the response would have to be the SYNTHESIS and ANTI-THESIS all at once. That's the difficulty. I'm optimistic though.
 
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
5,633
Location
subjective
I always liked that feeling of cute specialness.

INFP's are attracted to kind understanding people but also love abstractions.
INFJ's search for internal meaning not to discard grotesque psychic material.

INFP's - Explained

As for what I consider right and wrong, anyone who takes things both non objectively and out of the context of what the other is trying to convey.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
(1) Integrity is a good value to have. But it's also one of the easiest values to violate. There always will be implications in anything you write, intentional or unintentional; the contradiction between an accidental implication within your words and your actual intentions is the trick I was talking about.
Perhaps you have already noticed how your public expressions of self-doubt, despite implying that you are not worthy of being validated, are intended to reaffirm your self-image by letting other people publicly provide evidence against the statements symbolizing your doubts. That's an example of 'tricking' as I understand it.
Thanks for the feedback.

Integrity.
I suppose a person's ego (conscious self) depends on who the person is. If one doesn't get to know them, one can get a false impression. I can do these two things:
(A) Make open statements that are intended to draw people out: fishing. Implications are allowed I suppose.
(B) Make closed statements that are firm hypotheses as with high school plane geometry. The rules for plane geometry are one may draw only figures with ruler and compass. One cannot go outside the rules. If you try to tri-sect an angle you are going outside the rules. No implications are allowed.


2) I'm not mistaking you for my father; you are way too laid-back about criticism to look even remotely like a narcissist. Thus far your behavior has been more similar to that of my well-meaning distant relatives, who blame me for his irresponsible decisions because "you should have tried harder to make him do the right thing; you're his family, for god's sake!".
Inside your family they may postulate you are part of the family and cook up you have a responsibility. I am outside your family and don't blame you at all for your father's behavior.


That said, the above passage has ceased to apply to you when you've started the Fathers & Sons thread. You were obviously not engaging in the time-honored practice of victim-blaming, you were just trying to explain my experiences by extrapolating your own.
When we talk to each other, there is an implied relationship. That relationship is obscure if one of us (me) doesn't say something about who they are. By doing Fathers and Sons, the relationship is clarified to the better. Now you and I are more on equal footing instead of me doling out uncontrolled and questionable advice.


Your wife sounds interesting. What's her type and how does she manage to get you out of the Comfy Chair whenever she wants to? I usually have to stay in the Comfy Chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at eleven.
I haven't figured her out yet. Maybe ISTP. I allow her to get me out of the chair so I can take a needed break. She can be practical.

What? No breakfast?
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 07:02
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,128
Location
someplace windswept
How would you test a system that has no practical application, yet?

Would you assess it theoretically;
else Would you rather create grounds for its experimental application?

How would you establish the grounds for the evaluation?

Including the qualities you want to obtain;
else including every possible quality that you find relevant to consider/incorporate, or that will possibly become relevant in the future, (it might so happen that everything is relevant in such a system)?

edit:assuming you reasonably add more and more of these relevant aspects to consider, so that you don't become overwhelmed
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I like this kind of Q.
How would you test a system that has no practical application, yet?
A system doesn't NEED a practical application to exist. The first thing I would ask is what are we testing it for? One thing would be consistency. What we do is try out a variety of specific examples from the real world. We know the real world has no problem with consistency so we're good there. If the examples cover ALL the theory postulates, so much the better. If we can find an example where any one of the postulates is violated while the rest are good, the theory is self-contradictory and no good.

The other thing is to check if the theory can show more things are true within the theory. That means proving things of interest from within the theory. High school plane geometry is a good theory example. Off hand I forget what the postulates are though I could probably recall most ... like between any two points one can draw a straight line. That is a postulate. After that, plane geometry has so many theorems that we like the theory. Euclid wrote a book(s) with lots of theorems. I have a copy of three of his books in my library.


Would you assess it theoretically;
else Would you rather create grounds for its experimental application?
How would you establish the grounds for the evaluation?
Not sure what you're asking here. I would access it by looking at it. How would I evaluate it? I said something about that above. But, depending on theory, I could look for experimental applications. If it produces and lot of "theorems" in the real world, then is it robust ... practical. Personally with math, I hated applications and preferred theory because it was precise whereas applications were for extroverts.

Now you may want to name what KINDS of theories you are talking about. I regard religion as a theory although others get all emotional about it. (I take it with cool.) People of religion take the Bible or the Koran as a postulate. You and I know what all that leads to ... all sorts of contradictions as well as lots of theorems.


Including the qualities you want to obtain;
else including every possible quality that you find relevant to consider/incorporate, or that will possibly become relevant in the future, (it might so happen that everything is relevant in such a system)?

edit: assuming you reasonably add more and more of these relevant aspects to consider, so that you don't become overwhelmed
You might want to clarify what you are saying here. Do you mean you want to create a theory for something you observe? If one wants to obtain qualities they would have to think and go back to see what the postulates = assumptions = basic principle might be. Then if those are okay, go forward again and check out if more basic principles are needed to get what you want and if contradictions can be avoided.

This answer I wrote above addresses difficult things so it many not be clear.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 07:02
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,128
Location
someplace windswept
The other thing is to check if the theory can show more things are true within the theory. That means proving things of interest from within the theory.

Building upon the abstractions you have confirmed.

I hated applications and preferred theory because it was precise whereas applications were for extroverts.
Application can be any system that operates on the principles and rules that were set up. So it is a system that gathers data and outputs data, this is a functional application of the system that would be designed.
Now you may want to name what KINDS of theories you are talking about.
The system relies on the Four Causes and Teleology.
You might want to clarify what you are saying here. Do you mean you want to create a theory for something you observe?
Yes, a comprehensive theory that describes the relations and processes that effectively create and maintain a planet with.

In this case, my final cause is simply a planet animate matter.

I am currently focusing on the abiogenesis, so in the beginning of the process that this system describes, there are all the materials (randomly distributed), that are assumedly required for the abiogenesis.

A system describes a set of possible outcomes of the creation and has multiple inputs and also has inputs that generate further inputs, if applicable, evolving inputs and evolving outputs respectively.

For simplicity, you could consider having a ball of food (resources), where you would place your colony of bacteria, which would begin to reproduce, die, change the structure of the ball and balance their existence against the resources availible.

For greater simplicity, entropy will be added afterwards and it is assumed that the bacteria can consume the dead bacteria, so there is a perpetual cycle, however there are changes to the nature and types of bacteria (evolution), the final cause for the bacteria is efficiency at catering for every manifested need/lack and its maximal efficiency at performing its basic functions, reproduction, self-repair, etc.

And this is where I am wondering in what way would it be best to begin to test or evaluate this system? My problem is that the results go beyond the model of earth, there may be different life forms and strategies, because there may be different initial recource compositions and life forms.

Obvious quality standards/things to check:
-consistency within itself
-consistency with reality (where possible)

De facto the understanding of the reality is a place holder, and truly anything I generate is possible (and real) to achieve having a better understanding of the reality, however, I am basing it on the current understanding.

The problem is that the only studied outcome is the earth, however I want to create multiple other scenarios and at some points I would have to add my assumptions on the bottom level of this system to achieve that.

So I wonder whether my bottom assumptions should be tested by the consistency of the results and consistency with logics and reality

Arguably, the above methods does not rule out the possibility of my assumptions being valid, or partially valid.

So how can I decide that my arbitrary line is a good basic assumption? Euclidean metrics also have alternatives that have different assumptions and stay consistent in relation to themselves and my method would include several modes of assumptions, the researched one of earth and the hypothetical one of the general universe, which in fact is one, however there is a great lack of connections as of yet aside from the connections I understand intuitively.

It is a cause and effect system with pseudo-random inputs and conditional inputs that generate a great variance of results.
This answer I wrote above addresses difficult things so it many not be clear.
Not that difficult, your answers are quite general, which is not unreasonable considering that the inquiry might have been not specific.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I don't want to put you off but I'm having trouble following the long part of your response. I'm not educated in organic chemistry which doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to respond.

Critique, in order:
The middle part of your 1st block is not what I said. It's what you said.

Four Causes and Teleology have incorrect links.

abiogenesis is a valid topic. Not sure if you are asking me anything here.

Try rewording unless you think I can't be of much help here.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 07:02
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,128
Location
someplace windswept
I don't want to put you off but I'm having trouble following the long part of your response. I'm not educated in organic chemistry which doesn't mean I wouldn't be able to respond.
Chemistry and knowledge are totally irrelevant as these can be acquired when needed. I am focusing on the principles
Critique, in order:
The middle part of your 1st block is not what I said. It's what you said.
I don't understand what you are referring to.
The links should be fixed now, try them.
Try rewording unless you think I can't be of much help here.
Actually, I thought you might be of help in the areas of creating the basis for a system where no empirical rules exist, which I think would rely on observing the results and improving the base with each feedback, but I would like to know what other methods of system and theory formation you have used or know, if there are any experiences of that type then that is what I am mostly after.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I don't understand what you are referring to.
Originally Posted by BigApplePi

The other thing is to check if the theory can show more things are true within the theory. That means proving things of interest from within the theory.

Building upon the abstractions you have confirmed.

I hated applications and preferred theory because it was precise whereas applications were for extroverts.
You are quoting me above. The middle sentence is not mine.


The links should be fixed now, try them.
Thank you.


Actually, I thought you might be of help in the areas of creating the basis for a system where no empirical rules exist, which I think would rely on observing the results and improving the base with each feedback, but I would like to know what other methods of system and theory formation you have used or know, if there are any experiences of that type then that is what I am mostly after.
I will assume you are talking about this:
Yes, a comprehensive theory that describes the relations and processes that effectively create and maintain a planet with.
Astrophysics will tell you how planets are created.


In this case, my final cause is simply a planet animate matter.
Okay.

I am currently focusing on the abiogenesis, so in the beginning of the process that this system describes, there are all the materials (randomly distributed), that are assumedly required for the abiogenesis.
I wouldn't assume randomly distributed. There may be special concentration needs.

A system describes a set of possible outcomes of the creation and has multiple inputs and also has inputs that generate further inputs, if applicable, evolving inputs and evolving outputs respectively.
Yes. Creation not all at once, but in steps. I'd say let each step evolve or die out and the surviving steps go on.



For simplicity, you could consider having a ball of food (resources), where you would place your colony of bacteria, which would begin to reproduce, die, change the structure of the ball and balance their existence against the resources availible.
Don't you want to ask what creates the bacteria?


For greater simplicity, entropy will be added afterwards and it is assumed that the bacteria can consume the dead bacteria, so there is a perpetual cycle, however there are changes to the nature and types of bacteria (evolution), the final cause for the bacteria is efficiency at catering for every manifested need/lack and its maximal efficiency at performing its basic functions, reproduction, self-repair, etc.
The evolutionary process for bacteria is not the same as the creation of bacteria in the first place.



And this is where I am wondering in what way would it be best to begin to test or evaluate this system? My problem is that the results go beyond the model of earth, there may be different life forms and strategies, because there may be different initial recource compositions and life forms.
This is too vague. Where are you going with this?



Obvious quality standards/things to check:
-consistency within itself
-consistency with reality (where possible)

De facto the understanding of the reality is a place holder, and truly anything I generate is possible (and real) to achieve having a better understanding of the reality, however, I am basing it on the current understanding.
Very general.


The problem is that the only studied outcome is the earth, however I want to create multiple other scenarios and at some points I would have to add my assumptions on the bottom level of this system to achieve that.
You mean you want to look at possible other life forms, say on other planets?


So I wonder whether my bottom assumptions should be tested by the consistency of the results and consistency with logics and reality

Arguably, the above methods does not rule out the possibility of my assumptions being valid, or partially valid.
What assumptions do you propose?


So how can I decide that my arbitrary line is a good basic assumption? Euclidean metrics also have alternatives that have different assumptions and stay consistent in relation to themselves and my method would include several modes of assumptions, the researched one of earth and the hypothetical one of the general universe, which in fact is one, however there is a great lack of connections as of yet aside from the connections I understand intuitively.

It is a cause and effect system with pseudo-random inputs and conditional inputs that generate a great variance of results.
This is your baby. Your chance to work on it. I am not a chemist nor a bio-chemist.

Not that difficult, your answers are quite general, which is not unreasonable considering that the inquiry might have been not specific.
Yep.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
I always liked that feeling of cute specialness.

INFP's are attracted to kind understanding people but also love abstractions.
INFJ's search for internal meaning not to discard grotesque psychic material.

INFP's - Explained

As for what I consider right and wrong, anyone who takes things both non objectively and out of the context of what the other is trying to convey.
BAP

I wanted to know what type you think I am. I was thinking INFJ but that was from Auburns physiology expressions critique. I only palatially understand people. From your encounters with INFJs they don't seem to like your analysis. I'm deep into my Individuation process so I cant tell where I began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individuation#Carl_Jung
Animekitty. I forgot to post this:

My strongest impression of you is you ask others to interpret you over deciding for yourself. I usually can't judge other people's type because either there is not enough data or the data presented is not representative of the whole person. My best interpretation is not an interpretation at all but what the other person tells me. I tend to go by that until something arises that appears contradictory and even then pass no judgment.

I could ask you what type do the tests tell you? I don't see INFJ. You don't appear judgmental enough. Your disinclination to judge yourself indicates P not J.
 

Ink

Well-Known Member
Local time
Today, 07:02
Joined
Jan 26, 2012
Messages
926
Location
svealand
What is/has been your profession? What are your personal thoughts of your choice of profession as well as for INTPs in general?
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
What is/has been your profession? What are your personal thoughts of your choice of profession as well as for INTPs in general?
Excellent question, I've wondered this myself. I'll add, was there another profession that in retrospect you wish you had gone into?
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
What is/has been your profession? What are your personal thoughts of your choice of profession as well as for INTPs in general?
I am retired but invest in securities to maintain my portfolio. I was a computer programmer for fifteen years, then a computer systems engineer for another fifteen.

Choice of profession? Any profession where the INTP can make use of thinking as a primary job and where interacting with people can be a low priority. This does not exclude thinking about people.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
I was a computer programmer for fifteen years, then a computer systems engineer for another fifteen.
  • What type of computer programming/what subindustry? Any commercial applications you care to name?
  • What did you do exactly as a computer systems engineer? I've never been clear on what that entailed.

Choice of profession? Any profession where the INTP can make use of thinking as a primary job and where interacting with people can be a low priority. This does not exclude thinking about people.
Well said ...
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Excellent question, I've wondered this myself. I'll add, was there another profession that in retrospect you wish you had gone into?
Wish? Well it's hard to answer about wishing. Overall, my life has not been my own. That is, I began it way too naively to ever choose a profession. I didn't know what professions were. I'm being asked what profession would an INTP ever go in to optimally. That is a question I had no idea how to answer at age 18.

As I kid I first answered that by wanting to be an astronomer. It was the only thing I could think of that used numbers as I loved numbers or thought I did. But I threw that out when sent to a class about assembling a telescope. Way too concrete. Then I blinded myself to answering that question and just decided to continue pursuing math. But when I got to grad school I found myself in the wrong grad school: repetitive, dull courses with unsupported uninspiring professors. I lost interest and took the first job I could find: programming. Ne is required to support Ti and I had no Ne/Se knowledge.

I've often thought I could have been a psychologist designing experiments. But I would hate the concrete work necessary. I couldn't go into philosophy because I hated memorizing what other philosophers "believed" as I was always a questioning independent thinker. My poor memory doomed me for further advancement by brute academic force. That's all I can do to answer for the moment.

Later: If I could choose a profession I think I'd have to invent one. It would be to go anywhere thought was needed to solve maybe social problems where finding what was missing would overcome endemic entrenchment of traditional ways of doing things. I still can't answer the question.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
  • What type of computer programming/what subindustry? Any commercial applications you care to name?
  • What did you do exactly as a computer systems engineer? I've never been clear on what that entailed.
Industries? Fixing compiler bugs. Programming airline reservation systems, miscellaneous things I forget, Wall Street trading applications.

Systems engineer? That title might mean different things with different companies. Mine meant making sure computer systems were installed and operating correctly. Locating known solutions when things went wrong. Working with and supporting sales people who were selling these systems something I hated depending on whom I was working with. Think Maytag installer and repairman.

The common path for advancement was a system engineer became a marketing representative. Many did. I held on until I could retire. I got a nice mantel clock at a celebration just for me at a lunch at "Windows of the World" on top of the World Trade Center, 97(?)th floor. I recently tried to make a reservation but they told me not only the restaurant was gone, but so was the building ... something about an Osama something.
 

Polaris

Radioactive vision
Local time
Yesterday, 18:02
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
1,949
You once mentioned in a thread that you were not allowed to have values.

I. What does this mean exactly?

II. How do you think it affected you?

III. Would you say this was negative or positive? Or was it neither?
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
Wondering if you worked in a specific industry like Aerospace and Defense.

Fixing compiler bugs.
What language and what compiler?

Systems engineer? That title might mean different things with different companies.
Yeah all titles do.

Mine meant making sure computer systems were installed and operating correctly.
What systems? I'm guessing this was back in the big server days. PDP-11?

I got a nice mantel clock at a celebration just for me at a lunch at "Windows of the World" on top of the World Trade Center, 97(?)th floor. I recently tried to make a reservation but they told me not only the restaurant was gone, but so was the building ... something about an Osama something.
lol ... seriously, INTP's are such fucks :p
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Ask BAP: Values

You once mentioned in a thread that you were not allowed to have values.
I don't remember, but let me try to look it up and see if I said that and if the context matters. It's not so much I was not allowed to have values, but rather my formative life was such I couldn't come up with fitting values.
After I wrote the below, I can insert here two relevant experiences.

1. My humanities professor invited me to his house. I was nineteen. He knew I had something and told me, "You have to find yourself." I never did.
2. When I came to New York (age 23) and was lost, a psychotherapist told me, "Your feelings are shot to hell." That's an exact quote.* It was true.
I. What does this mean exactly?
Well most people have values. They were properly loved. They took their values from their environmental source, say one or both parents, a teacher, a book or anywhere.

II. How do you think it affected you?
Having no values would mean an aimless empty life. I would be unable to choose a life best for me.

III. Would you say this was negative or positive? Or was it neither?
My first reaction is it would be unquestionably negative. It would mean aimlessness and emptiness. However once realizing values were worthless or meaningless or ahem ... valueless to me, this can be turned around into a positive. I can take a hyper-value of great social value and in the end, if lucky, value to myself. What does this mean? It's the attitude of the scientist. A scientist tries to look at whatever the topic is without prejudging and search out and present (Fe) a or the truth about it. Not everyone can do this because most people want to have a preconceived, or wished for outcome. I have a rage or hatred for this because I'm presumably in balance and I would get ripped off by any preconceived outcome. Scientists do not like to have their work knocked down by cold unloving nonunderstanding dog-eat-dog competitive peer reviewers.

I observe that a person with the above experience and attitude can go into a hard science or a technology and be successful. I was not successful in that area, but never forgot when a grade school teacher posed this problem to the class: Why is technology so far ahead of society (paraphrase)? I forget her exact words, but she meant there was enormous progress in society with technological revolutions but we still had poverty, war, corruption, etc. I thought that a terrific question and saw it could be a topic to which I could apply myself.

Now if you see any contradiction or falseness in what I've said above, I would be glad to hear it because I'm in a place here where people are NOT cold unloving nonunderstanding dog-eat-dog competitive peer reviewers.
_____________________

*Today I would put it, my feelings are all there. They hang onto my thinking like leaves on a tree. This is the opposite of an erupting volcano where feelings come first and we think about it afterward.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Chocolate or Vanilla?
Chocolate. It comes in unpredictable flavors. Vanilla is only vanilla and appears to be best unmixed. Would you agree?
 

SpaceYeti

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
5,600
Location
Crap
Chocolate. It comes in unpredictable flavors. Vanilla is only vanilla and appears to be best unmixed. Would you agree?
It depends entirely on context. If we replace the vanilla of a sugar cookie recipe with chocolate, it would not be as good. Vanilla is more of a flavor optimiser, used more like a spice, whereas chocolate works better as a base flavor.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Wondering if you worked in a specific industry like Aerospace and Defense.
No specific industry. Just a company serving a lot of other companies ... unless you want to call mine financial and commercial airlines.

What language and what compiler?
Assembler for mainframes. Some Fortran N but only for a short period. Everything was assembler. It was the most efficient and flexible language back then. A personal computer was not even a dream.

When personal computers came into being I watched a guy fool with one he had built. When they become commercial I bot one and programmed it for personal use but used higher level languages, not assembler which I didn't master.

What systems? I'm guessing this was back in the big server days. PDP-11?
Mainframe systems. I'm forgetting their acronyms. MVS, DOS. Series/1, AS400.

Servers? No such thing in my day. PDP-11? Never heard of it.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
Assembler for mainframes. Some Fortran N but only for a short period. Everything was assembler. It was the most efficient and flexible language back then.
...
When personal computers came into being I watched a guy fool with one he had built. When they become commercial I bot one and programmed it for personal use but used higher level languages, not assembler which I didn't master.
So how could you fix compiler bugs for an assembler compiler (which presumably was written in assembler), but not master assembler code?
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Originally Posted by BigApplePi

Assembler for mainframes. Some Fortran N but only for a short period. Everything was assembler. It was the most efficient and flexible language back then.
...
When personal computers came into being I watched a guy fool with one he had built. When they become commercial I bot one and programmed it for personal use but used higher level languages, not assembler which I didn't master.

So how could you fix compiler bugs for an assembler compiler (which presumably was written in assembler), but not master assembler code?
Lol. That could be a problem, couldn't it? Answer: Assembler is the basic language of the computer but depends on which computer. Assembler for mainframes would be quite different from assembler for personal computers. I had a book on assembler for personal computers but don't recall how far I got into it. I had written my home program in BASIC and thought of writing a subroutine directly in PC assembler just to speed up a process. The subroutine in assembler would have to be hooked up to the BASIC. I think I took a stab at it but never mastered it. Got stuck somewhere. In those days computer speed mattered. Nowadays the cpu is so fast the computer outpaces the application needs ... or so it would seem.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
Assembler is the basic language of the computer but depends on which computer. Assembler for mainframes would be quite different from assembler for personal computers.
Is it? I used Fortran on mainframes, not assembler so know nothing about mainframe assmbly, but I'd be surprised if it was that much different than PC. Registers and opcodes, bits and bytes ...
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Is it? I used Fortran on mainframes, not assembler so know nothing about mainframe assmbly, but I'd be surprised if it was that much different than PC. Registers and opcodes, bits and bytes ...
That's true. There would be a high correspondence conceptually. As of now I don't know where I put that PC Assembler book. That was 20 or 30 years ago I looked at it. It's around here somewhere. I'm sure the word structure of bytes would be similar but not precisely the same. The opcodes might be different. Even for the 360 mainframe, the 370 mainframe assembler was an enhancement when it came out. If I recall, it was not so much the assembler language that stuck me, but how to interface it with the BASIC language. The book had only a tiny section on that which may have been too vague. I kept it in the back of my mind to retry but now today why should I care?
 

Cognisant

Condescending Bastard
Local time
Yesterday, 18:02
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
7,757
Does the prospect of artificial intelligence challenge your beliefs?

Do you think an artificial intelligence capable of personal moral discretion would have a soul?

Or suppose we take the bible more literally, suppose god's covenant was only with mankind (hence why animals don't have souls) does that mean people who forsaken their humanity for ascension to a virtual plane of existence will have forsaken their souls?

If offered digitisation would you opt for technological immortality or entrust your existence to a god you've never seen nor heard?
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
What have you done with yourself in retirement? Rumor has it INTPs do pretty much the same thing as they did before, so it's hard to tell they actually retired.
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
What have you done with yourself in retirement? Rumor has it INTPs do pretty much the same thing as they did before, so it's hard to tell they actually retired.
You would have to interview me to get the answer to that and even then you might not get a clear answer.

I do everything I couldn't do when I was working and continually seek new things although I spent most of my time doing old things. That makes me atypical perhaps. I do some technical hobbies, spend a typical day on the internet both here and watching stocks. I commute city to country. Outdoors up there and meetings to learn things in the city as well as get togethers with encounter buddies such as my retirement group.

I took a part time job in 1990 for the census bureau got promoted to crew chief and had a ball. I learned so much I had no desire to repeat in 2000 or 2010. A contact offered me a part time job as a secretary in a hospital making appointments and explaining the basics. I got to learn hospital stuff. My senior once told me not to go to a lecture because I was taking up space for doctors. I don't recall if I followed that or not. That job may have been fun but I have no wish to repeat it.

Almost all my time is spent alone (as long as my wife leaves me alone) except for pets, but I want to be able to make contacts and do so.
 
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
1,866
Do you agree with the latest public typings of prominent members? Specifically, Auburn typed THD as ISTJ and TA as ESTP based on a few short videos (at their request, of course).

Which of the following do you think is the best approximation of the truth?

1. The method has a strong bias towards typing people as S-types.
2. It is an unlikely coincidence that two ENTPs got typed as dominant S-types.
3. Statistically, it was extremely likely that two forum members selected at random are S-types.​
 
Local time
Today, 01:02
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
8,988
Location
New York City (The Big Apple) & State
Do you agree with the latest public typings of prominent members? Specifically, Auburn typed THD as ISTJ and TA as ESTP based on a few short videos (at their request, of course).

Which of the following do you think is the best approximation of the truth?
1. The method has a strong bias towards typing people as S-types.
2. It is an unlikely coincidence that two ENTPs got typed as dominant S-types.
3. Statistically, it was extremely likely that two forum members selected at random are S-types.​
Help! I did watch it in passing but not to judge type. You didn't re-supply the link.
 

Architect

Professional INTP
Local time
Yesterday, 23:02
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
6,692
I commute city to country. Outdoors up there and meetings to learn things in the city as well as get togethers with encounter buddies such as my retirement group.
Why do you commute to the country? Vacation house, or to meet people, or just be outdoors?

Almost all my time is spent alone (as long as my wife leaves me alone)
Do you like the alone time? I guess not because ...

but I want to be able to make contacts and do so.
except for pets
What kind of pets?
 
Top Bottom