Arguing with an extroverted feeling type

[opllars]

I would suspect that many of you have had similar problems like me in getting along with an ext. feeling type, as it is INFPs inferior function, and so the type most different to themself.

A close family member of mine is a ESFJ. We have never been able to reach any conclusion or agreement whatever emotional issue we have been talking about.
So my strategy has become to try not to be rigid about what is the truth of the matter and see if I can say something nice and neutral instead, something of objective shallow value like: nice curtains... etc.
But sometimes, like today, its too much. I can take divertions from 'truth', but problems arise if what I say is supressed or overlooked as if it has no importance and keeping up appearance and conventions like smiling and laughing (although nothing funny has been said) is of more importance and totally overrules communication based on trying to understand each other (I think I can truly say that she is neither interested in understanding me, nor herself).

I feel that having 'diagnosed' her as a feeling type gives me a clue to why things can go so wrong between us. If I think about how I in the past have tried to use logic as a means to get mutual understanding and how little it have helped, its very obvious that I have to use anything else than logic. And this I found out many years ago, and have stopped discussing with her, but I havent found a substitute, except trying to bring acceptance into the situation. And remember that she doesnt function well when confronted with what I consider as facts. She simply denies these facts or side track the talk to something completely irrelevant. Which I experience like building a wall between us instead of just acknowledge what is, so that we can get over with it. Actually it can easily go so far as simply not to pshysically hear what I say, although I might have repeated it twice. Its like we can never realy meat, unless I suppres most of my thinking.... it makes it very hard to express myself very much. It might sound as if she is an immature person, but actually I consider her as very developed, which can make me feel that all our disagreements are my fault, which they might be to some degree, but what to do?
Hm.... Maybe something that would comunicate to her is to give her appreciation first, and then tell her that I would appreciate her even more if she would listen to my point. I have to coach myself doing this, as it doesnt come natural - and as it doesnt I would feel like manipulating. For a good cause, of course, but very much like a ext. feeling type, like the ones that could make me vomit.

Does any of you have similar experiences they would like to share?
(Or even better - any ideas of how to get around this problem?)

 

[NoID10ts]

My step dad is one of these ESFJ's. I doubt I can offer assistance but I can certainly offer my condolences.

My step dad and I might as well be from different planets. He is like a force of nature, never thinking things through, just operating on pure instinct. It's really a sight to behold! Why think things through when you can act first and pick up the debris later, right?

I'd love to hear input concerning ESFJ's in particular. I love my step dad, I respect him and am thankful for all he has done for me, but he has been a thorn in my side since day one. But I must admit, I have been a thorn in his side as well.

 

[fullerene]

mm... maybe it's just me, but my experiences with ESFJs is that they care a hell of a lot more if people are involved. INTPs are like a brick wall to them... they can't find any real way to interact because if a problem isn't personal, it isn't worth solving.

the only thing I can think of is have you tried talking to her about how much strain it's putting on you? You're obviously under stress from consistently avoiding logic, but my guess is she'd care a lot more if you associated yourself with the problem, rather than talking about it as if it were some abstract, impersonal one.


From what experience I have with them, they tend to really appreciate honesty with feelings... even if they're negative ones. ESFJs that I've seen seem to split into very different kinds of people. If they absorb bad morals, they can turn into extremely manipulative social climbers who don't really care about anyone and live solely for other people's approval. If they absorb good ones, they can (and almost certainly will) still care immensely about what people think of them, but they appreciate emotional honesty and serve as remarkable people who can somehow find a way to make you feel better even if they don't cognitively understand why you're upset. Then of course there's everything in between. Around here I've seen them get talked about as if they were all identical... but would you really expect that much uniformity in such a huge group? Even we're a good deal different, and there are something like 10 of them to every one of us.

Anyway... if shes pretty mature and doesn't look/act like she's completely shallow all the time, I think sorting out what's making you upset and talking to her might help. If they care about you, they want the conflict to be over as soon as possible too--it hurts them a lot more than it does us.

that's at least the best I got for ya...

 

[Anling]

My sister is ESFJ and we used to fight like cats and dogs. We generally get along fine now. I don't know that anything much changed besides we both grew up, and continue to do so.

Perhaps since she is a dominant Fe and shows all her emotions she simply expects you to show the same expected emotional responses. Maybe she finds your facts to be tactless or somehow a personal attack. With my sister everything is personal and often logical facts are irrevelent to her because its the subjective or relational things that matter to her.

Perhaps you should talk to her about how her behavior is making you feel. That might help her understand your point of view.

 

[Ermine]

My mom's ESTJ, with a very developed F. We clash all time, mostly because of N vs. S conflict. She thinks there are always two extremes in situations when I see a spectrum. For example, when I'm "arguing" with her, either I have bad and belligerent intentions, or I was discussing things on accident. I see a wide variety of options, and she never sees where I'm coming from even after I explain each option. Sometimes in trying to discover her intentions and uncover her train of thought, I offer up a strand of debate style cross-examination questions for the sake of getting more information because she really confuses me most of the time. She takes offense at this.

She also gets really upset over my usual apathy. If I'm not perfectly compassionate, I'm horribly insensitive. We also clash a lot over convention. She holds it in a fairly high regard while I only value convention if I find a good reason for it. That and she always assumes she's right and I need to be more humble, merely because she has the upper hand in the family hierarchy.

Shout thread worthy?

It has its positive moments though. My mom's an expert question asker as an ESTJ, and when we both let out guard down and she starts asking questions, I learn so much about myself.

 

[Jennywocky]

I'm too tired to say much tonight, but once you manage to get out of your Ti-entrenched mindset, ESFJs (if they are at least marginally mature, and likewise goes for the INTP) aren't actually too bad. ISFJs tend to be far more stubborn, but because ESFJs lead with Fe (not Si), they adjust to the current of the social needs around them. i.e., if society moves, they'll move with it; ISFJ tends to preserve the society they valued in the past, even if society changes a great deal.ESFJs can be pushy, possessive, domineering, and openly judgment and even sound belligerent. Remember that at core this is driven by commitment, especially in a relationship; they belong to you and you belong to them, so they'll fight for you and they'll expect you to fight for them.So use your Ti and your Ne to understand their motivations and what they want from you, and then maybe you can imagine some things you can give them that satisfy them. If you get an ESFJ on your side, (s)he will be a valuable ally -- they run interference for you, they fight for you when necessary, and so on. I think as ESFJs and INTPs get older, too, both find more and more points of respect and connection.

 

[opllars]

Cryptonia and Anling, I might be able to tell her how her behavior makes me FEEL, but that have created a lot of comunication breakdown in the past... I know that feeling types usually are good with feelings, but she is only good with feelings that she think is correct to have. If I said that how she behaves put a strain on me, she would either judge me as on who makes things problematic or she would feel burdened by it (and that is what I least want) , and show her 'understanding' (premature – before she have understood anything) in a way that shows her good will. And I would then have to either just accept her wrong understanding or correct her understanding – and then we would be back at square one.


Maybe I should tell her how GOOD I feel when she pay attention to what I say, and that I am happy that she have done this much more during the last years.
You are lucky you have a mother that are a good question asker, Fernando. The ESFJ I am talking about, asks questions like this: If I tell I have had a fantastic experience at concert, she will will ask qustions about where the concert were, and if I went by bus, and then she will change subject.
You speak very wisely, Jennewocky. Yes, to use my Ti and Ne to understand her. I think I will focuse on a lot of things I appreciate about her, when I talk to her next time, and say that since she is so important for me, I want us to be able to really have good talks together, and that I am happy that we have had so many good talks the last years. That cant go wrong ;-)


I am very happy for your replies, your support have certainly helped me to find out what to do.
And it shows what value using personality types can have, as you have been able to give me workable advice just from knowing mine and hers type.


Thanks!

 

[opllars]

Hi again.

I have just had a funny experience with a feeling type (IF)
Our communication have suffered for a looong time, and from MY point of view it is like this: She have been wanting to be a thinking type for the last 10 years, which she is not, and what happens is that she comes up with absurd theories and delivers argurments that are totally illogical. If I confront her with this, she gets offended. I get irritated because she has the rigth to tell me things like: do you know that Coca-cola is more unhealthy than ( the kind of alcohol you get from trees that make people blind....)
And I am not allowed to say things against these kinds of statements.

Today I said to her that I think she is a feeling type and explained that this means that her oppinions are based on what she likes/dislikes more than logic. Her comment to this was so funny: she disagreed and said ,
" I would not like to look at myself as someone who is occupied with what I like and dislike !"

I think we managed to come to greater mutual understanding, as she got the point and we could talk about our differences, without making one better than the other. I love when MBTI can actually help gaining better understanding and respect between people.

 

[Jesin]

Today I said to her that I think she is a feeling type and explained that this means that her oppinions are based on what she likes/dislikes more than logic.

You explained it wrong! You basically told her that her opinions are based on her opinions rather than logic.

Feeling, like Thinking, is a decision-making process. Gah, I don't know how to explain this very well.

Decaf!

 

[fullerene]

I think I can do that at this point. I could be wrong, but this'll at least save Decaf the trouble of having to type it up again, if all he really has to say is "what he said." Feeling people make decisions based on values, people, and the effect their decision has on them. Thinkers try to distance themselves from the issue, trying to boil something down to its own essence, and make a decision that way. If you had to pick one word (which I think actually sums it up better than I did), feeling has a subjective emphasis, while thinking has an objective emphasis.


it is funny, though. I know an ESFJ who (without really knowing anything about MBTI) cracks me up when she talks. When talking in class or trying to work on physics homework, she started throwing "therefore"s in front of clauses that don't follow from the first part of the sentence, and says that things are "intuitive" when they're most often wrong. Every time she does it I turn and share the little private chuckle with my (I think) ENTP friend who knows enough mbti theory to find it funny too. Very amusing.

 

[Jesin]

What happens if you try to explain to her what you're laughing about, why she's using "therefore" wrong, or something like that?

 

[Decaf]

I think I can do that at this point. I could be wrong, but this'll at least save Decaf the trouble of having to type it up again, if all he really has to say is "what he said." Feeling people make decisions based on values, people, and the effect their decision has on them. Thinkers try to distance themselves from the issue, trying to boil something down to its own essence, and make a decision that way. If you had to pick one word (which I think actually sums it up better than I did), feeling has a subjective emphasis, while thinking has an objective emphasis.

Sounds like you hit the nail on the head. I'm trying to get away from using subjective and objective when referring to thinking vs feeling because someone convinced me that it applies more to the introvert vs extravert dichotomy per function than elsewhere. I don't have any ideas for a replacement as of yet, but that being said I couldn't have said it better.

I've been musing about this very issue lately, so I'm just gonna jot down what I've been thinking... feelers incorporate into their decision making process something I call "the human factor" and thinkers avoid it in favor of the mathematical approach of using models to represent reality (thus allowing for universal laws). It may need a little work, but I think it functions.

 

[opllars]

Decaf, I dont think I explainded it wrong?
Feeling types DO base their opinions on likes/dislikes. That is what feeling is, as I have understood it. A value is basically something we "like". Do this have value for you? = do you like it? Therefore it can be difficult to have a discussion based on logic with a F, as she find it hard to distract herself from what is liked/valued about the subject.

We earlier talked about the subjective - objective. The author Daryl Sharp explains it very well, the EF can *loose* their subjective feelings - at the extreme they only relate to the values of their society or surroundings, the accepted standards. It is the E and I that determines how much one relate to the objective (outer) or subjective world. Maybe it would be more correct to say that feeling always relate to persons (self or others), where as T (logic) is impersonal. A feeling person can say: You always have to help someone in need. Any T would object to this immediately: what if 10 persons should suffer to help this one person?
Consider this: Its possible to be subjective and impersonal at the same time, like it is possible to be objective and personal at the same time.
The first position would be introverted thinking (I find the answer in myself), the second would be extroverted feeling ('we must consider the welfare of the people in X').

 

[opllars]

Hi again Decaf. I didnt see you post before sending the above, and yes, that was us who had the discussion about subjective and objective. Let me know what you think of my idea.

 

[Jennywocky]

I have just had a funny experience with a feeling type (IF) Our communication have suffered for a looong time, and from MY point of view it is like this: She have been wanting to be a thinking type for the last 10 years, which she is not, and what happens is that she comes up with absurd theories and delivers arguments that are totally illogical. If I confront her with this, she gets offended. I get irritated because she has the rigth to tell me things like: do you know that Coca-cola is more unhealthy than ( the kind of alcohol you get from trees that make people blind....) And I am not allowed to say things against these kinds of statements.

Today I said to her that I think she is a feeling type and explained that this means that her opinions are based on what she likes/dislikes more than logic. Her comment to this was so funny: she disagreed and said ,
" I would not like to look at myself as someone who is occupied with what I like and dislike !"

I know -- inherently hilarious, is it not? Warm hugs and comforting logic to you, dear, you've got a nice row to hoe there.

I'm glad that seemed to work out, if she got the joke.

People like that used to really frustrate me; I wouldn't want to argue, I also realized no arguing would resolve ANYTHING... yet the illogic would drive me batty.

In the end, I realized I had to let it go and it was just a quirk of theirs that I'd have to accept to some degree. It doesn't mean I'd have to cater to it, it just meant I had to not take it personally.

I also would resort far more to reflective listening -- repeating what they said so that they'd know I understood, then couch everything in terms of feeling for ME and explain at times that I was frustrated. "I feel like there are other ways to approach this, and it's hard for me sometimes to hear you approach it so single-mindedly. I listen to you because you're my friend and I care about you, even when I don't agree, because I can tell how dedicated you are to your viewpoint and how strongly you believe in it; but sometimes I feel like you aren't really listening or interested in how I view all this."

I found more success with appealing to the friendship like that, where they would have to realize the negative impact their approach was having on our relationship.

Honestly, my natural inclination is just to gut their argument. The tact approach is a little tiring but I use it because I've had to -- just trying to gut the argument lead the Fi person to dig in more. My ESFP son is very hard to deal with when he gets stuck in a rut; if you challenge his beliefs in any way, he gets angry and decides that you're not validating him as a person.

(I find Fe people actually easier to deal with in the sense that they have a great sense of etiquette in conversation; if you approach them kindly and respectfully, they often seem to have their own code they will adhere to as well that is focused on a more community-style approach.)

 

[Perseus]

I have been ambushed and attacked and kicked unconscious so I was nearly dead, by these ESFJ bastards. I have been banned from pubs, lied about, even had girlfriends raped by these ESFJ monsters. I fucking hate them! I hate working in sales, I don't go in taxis .....

 

[Perseus]

If you see a Dragon* (Could be the Queen of Hearts) with a Silver Cross pendant, you know there is a Horseman somewhere in her life. Beware!

It is only when they are stressed out by other Dragons at Inferior Function is murder a possibility. Eagles are OK cause they can think it out. Highway. Phoenix have difficulty in thinking it out, but it has become clear.

*Weasels cause even worse trouble.

 

[wadlez]

I have a freind whos EF and I argued with him about lots of things and our arguments have destroyed our friendship a few times. We reconciled each time and I am currently friends with him, but now I dont argue with him anymore. I stopped argueing with him when i heard the saying "if you could reason with religous people there would be no religous people".

Our main argument was about his religion but I found that this also applied to the rest of his illogical beliefs. Rather than give up on him though I have started using different tactics which i wont ellaborate on , but basically avoid arguing at all costs because it will only strengthen there belief (and risk your friendship).

 

[wadlez]

Hey perseus,
How did you know these guys were ESFJs? Were you friends with them?
Did you share a taxi with them?