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Are those who obsess about intelligence barred from the upper echelons?

Antediluvian

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I remember someone said to me once that those who obsess about intelligence are somewhat above average, but not genius level intelligence. While being far from a rational argument in itself, it might stem from simple pattern recognition.

Thoughts?
 

Philovitist

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What? How many geniuses had this dude met?
 

Cognisant

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Above average intelligence is something to hide, people have great expectations and little sympathy for those deemed to be intelligent, and the more intelligent you're deemed to be the worse off you are, hence why many people with genius level IQs live surprisingly humble lives.

Intelligence doesn't necessitate a proclivity to use it.
 

Cognisant

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Sorry, I don't think obsessing about intelligence is an intelligent thing to do, as to whether or not it's indicative of intelligence, I dunno, I wouldn't think so, though certainly a certain level of intelligence is required to be so self conscious in the first place.
 

Philovitist

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Actually, hyperintelligent people tend to overestimate the intelligence of those around them. They are surprised that they are so smart.

Unless they're immature.


But seriously, what that someone said is probably bull and you should assume that it is until proven otherwise.
 

Hadoblado

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I think there might be something to the claim.

I went through a phase of obsession over intelligence. I knew I was above average, but by how much? What if I was some sort of prodigy? what if I wasn't? It was grating at my ego, and making me anxious.

As it stands, I am far from a genius. I'm still well above average intelligence, but there is zero chance of me surprising myself with some hidden cognitive talent. If I were a genius level intellect, there would be little evidence to the contrary, which would confer a greater confidence, and lessen the insecurity that fueled my obsession.

A more intelligent person would also likely resolve his insecurity more quickly. I had access to the internet, it's not like an internet IQ test is likely to give you a substantially lower score than your actual IQ.

While this is only one data point in the confirmation, it does make some sense.

SnafupantsSnafupantsSnafupants

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snafupants

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A more intelligent person would also likely resolve his insecurity more quickly. I had access to the internet, it's not like an internet IQ test is likely to give you a substantially lower score than your actual IQ.

You would think so, but many high IQ freaks spin their wheels on Ron Hoeflin's tests.
 

Antediluvian

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it's not like an internet IQ test is likely to give you a substantially lower score than your actual IQ.

I'm sure that there are internet IQ tests that are quite reliable, but almost equally sure there are those that aren't at all.

I'm referring to anecdotal evidence here, but I know of someone who scored 90 or so on an online test, but scored approximately 150 on a professionally administered battery.
 

Duxwing

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Above average intelligence is something to hide, people have great expectations and little sympathy for those deemed to be intelligent, and the more intelligent you're deemed to be the worse off you are, hence why many people with genius level IQs live surprisingly humble lives.

Intelligence doesn't necessitate a proclivity to use it.

Depressed intelligent people are treated especially so: we're expected to have insight into our problems-- if we had it, why would we be depressed?-- a concrete plan for how to solve our problems-- if we had one, we'd just ask our friends and family to help us carry it out-- and the ability to detach from and "power through" our pain-- depression is the absence of that ability. I think that society severely misunderstands what being intelligent means, and I believe that we, the intelligent (by their standards) people of this world are at least partially to blame. We often elevate the ideal of a purely logical being and criticize others for basing their opinions on the feelings of the moment; in so doing, we effectively paint ourselves as emotionless super-beings, figuratively gazing down upon the foolish masses from nebulous clouds of thought. So, to continue the metaphor, when we crash down to earth, our emotions a raw, smoking hole in our chests, wings of logic broken by the battering that the thunderstorm of our mental disease has unleashed upon us, we are seen as hypochondriacs just looking for sympathy, or alien beings unworthy of compassion. So yes, I agree: perceived intelligence is certainly a hindrance to the recovery of a depressed person.

In my case, my school is subjecting me to a battery of useless tests and attempting to put me in a special education program that will teach me "study skills" because they see my intelligence (admittedly, I'm in the 99.99th percentile of oral language intelligence) going to waste; what I've been trying to tell them, and what they evidently refuse to understand, is that I'm twisted up in emotional knots that make getting myself to do my homework like having sex with an electrical outlet! Learning how to be more organized won't make doing homework any easier, it will only make me think about it more and become needlessly neurotic (I'm haunted by near-psychotic and terrifying imaginings of Pennywise the Dancing Clown, which are triggered by my homework anxiety). And the counselors at the school just want me to conform, to be like the other kids, but I'm not. I can't, for example, in good conscience, just do my homework without thinking of why: I'm not the kind of person who "just does it". Saucy doubts and fears would plague my conscience, not to mention the unbearable cries of "illogic" from my logical part.

In summary: I want help, but they just want results.

-Duxwing
 

Animekitty

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You would think so, but many high IQ freaks spin their wheels on Ron Hoeflin's tests.

www.intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1954&stc=1&d=1361600213

:) :tinykitball: :)
 

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Reluctantly

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I don't know, but I get tired of people trying to use IQ to assert they are intellectually superior to other people. It makes me care less, to be honest, if having a high IQ is then about competition or used to tell people they can't learn to think or do like someone with a higher IQ. Thinking is as much a game as it is an art, anyway.

I mean, think about it, what good is having a high IQ if the world is run by people with low IQs? Their poorly thought out actions will impact other smarter people negatively, even if the smarter people know better. But if the smart people could use their intelligence to teach other people to be smarter and at the same time can realize those other people can teach them something as well (that they aren't always the smart ones), well now when people act, their impact on other people will be much more thought-out and positive. And because of this, whether people want to accept it or not, our actions do impact other people, even if we all have to make our own choices and live our own lives.

but...what am I forgetting? There's always something...wait, that's the point. :)
 

QuickTwist

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I remember someone said to me once that those who obsess about intelligence are somewhat above average, but not genius level intelligence. While being far from a rational argument in itself, it might stem from simple pattern recognition.

Thoughts?

As much as I hate to admit it it sounds true to me.


Story of my life; when it comes right down to it I'm just your average Joe.
 

Antediluvian

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www.intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1954&stc=1&d=1361600213

:) :tinykitball: :)

I've gotten drastically different scores on online IQ tests, and part of the variance could be due to both emphasis and quality of those tests (maybe those two aren't mutually exclusive). Anyway, I've scored anywhere from 130, to 125+ (on that test it merely said equivalent to that score or "higher"), to borderline retarded level. I would imagine they partially assess attentional abilities at an indirect level.

I guess my point is, online IQ tests aren't the holy grail, at best they can be reasonably accurate, at worst they can be incredibly misleading.
 

WALKYRIA

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i don't get it, what's the point in here?
Intelligence doesnt exist, it's just a silly invention of silly humankind !
SO, if it doestn exists or if it havnt any clear definition.... the more intelligent you are and the more aware you are of this fact and the more you doubt of your intelligence( since it's defined by the others !).
In fact, many people are good in math and bad with words and vice versa. Nobody is excellent in everything. The more you are intelligent, the more you realize this.
Extremelyintelligent and mature persons come soon or later to realize that intelligence is just biased, they know that intelligence is really not what really matters in a lifetime(although not being retarded is important for the journey to be fully enjoyed!).
Take the 10 highest iqs in the world, eliminate the rest of the low iq populace... what now? high iq society?yes and no(becoz there is no high iq without low iq), but nothing has really changed believe me, becoz human intelligence is still infinitely limited in comparison of the infinity.
People just don't realize it but all the major scientific breakthroughs, important findings,..Etc have nothing to do with iq ; although passion, chance and circonstances..
SO, pleaz, never ever talk about intelligence or the insignificant differences in human intelligence... coz it's really futile.
 

snafupants

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Intelligence doesnt exist, it's just a silly invention of silly humankind !

So, in your estimation, there is no qualitative difference between two individuals - one IQ 195, the other IQ 82? It's certainly a fresh perspective.
 

Philovitist

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Intelligence doesnt exist, it's just a silly invention of silly humankind !

No, it exists, just like consciousness and color perception.

In fact, many people are good in math and bad with words and vice versa. Nobody is excellent in everything. The more you are intelligent, the more you realize this.

The interesting thing is that this isn't usually the case; most people who are good at math are also bettee than average in other subjects. There's a general intelligence, a common factor about certain people's brains that improves cognitive function overall. >.>

You...might have a ways to go before you'll be able to intelligently discuss intelligence. :S
 

QuickTwist

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So, in your estimation, there is no qualitative difference between two individuals - one IQ 195, the other IQ 82? It's certainly a fresh perspective.

IDK, is it something that was discovered or made up? I don't really think its a fresh perspective, just bold.
 

snafupants

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I remember someone said to me once that those who obsess about intelligence are somewhat above average, but not genius level intelligence. While being far from a rational argument in itself, it might stem from simple pattern recognition.

Thoughts?

@Antediluvian

That's a stupid statement for two reasons - it is wrong yet, number two, it is bound to look right because there are more above average than genius level people apropos the bell curve. Approximately 34% of people are between the mean and one positive standard deviation out; around 14% are between one and two standard deviations, which perhaps constitutes the "above average" group. So, sure, there might be more above average people looking into IQ tests than genius folk doing same, but that might be due to higher numbers of above average people and not a higher percentage propensity in one group. The people on the far, far right intrinsically have a lesser voice. Also, results could be confounded by one group being more visible or vociferous. Overall, though, the statement itself is borderline retarded.
 

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Antediluvian

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@snafupants, if I am understanding you, the sheer amount can be misleading, even if the percentage of individuals in either group who are obsessed about intelligence is roughly equal. Yes, the statement lacked any form of coherent argumentation, but I was wondering if he was simply recognizing some pattern due to exposure I lacked, or something.

That person I mentioned did have some strange notions concerning intellect, such as those with bipolar automatically having to be at the very least bright. To my knowledge, there isn't anything supporting that to any extent except one isolated British study that claimed those with bipolar tend to score somewhat higher on exams, but his perspective isn't a strict rule to my knowledge. As an aside biploar and other disorders might have a higher occurrence in the creative professions, but there are less of them in the more logical professions, math, science, etc (if I remember my psychology studies correctly).
 

WALKYRIA

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no people, can't u see the truth?
Intelligence is dead just as religion is.
Take a few persons randomly and ask them their definition of intelligence...they all will have different answers. Just as religion, intelligence is about subjectivity. Every gifted kid knows that the people who get the straight A's are not necessarily the most intelligent; and the people who get the high paying jobs are not necessarely the most intelligent out there; although people in our society still associate high paying jobs/ success/ good grades/ ...etc with high intelligence wich is completely wrong.

My intuition is that pure intelligence can't be found in humans, we are just animals with slightly more developped brains than chimps. Some chimps have better cognitive abilities than us humans(see short term memory); mathematics can become extremely easy with practice; iq tests can be topped by training; a muscle gets bigger with training so does the brain with neuroplasticity.
No really, believe my big experience, nobody excell in everything... there will be always a blind spot becoz that's the reality of human brain, it adapts, morphes... if u develop one part, an other one shrinks. If you are good in deductive skills, inductive skills will lower. Good in mathematics? art will be bad. if your too organized, creativity lowers. good convergent thinking(left brain), divergent thinking lowers(right brain). Have you never asked yourself why genius are generally unbalanced people(good in theory, bad in practice!)? why typical professors are absent minded? all this is not choosen, brain adapts !
Brains and mental energy is something very complex and mysterious... that's why i like it so much actually.


difference between iq 195 and iq 85? this is a tricky question actually so i'll give a tricky answer ==> i don't find any intellectual difference between them if (iq 85) is 30 years old and (iq 195) is 13 years old; iq is about mental age isnt it ?

just as i said it before, intelligence as measured in our society is biased and intelligence classification is pure futility; what if i told you that certain regions in the brain are destined for iq tests solving(logico-mathematics)? You can develop them by training those different areas.


PS: all this is pure intuition power(i prefer to speak from guts/intuition when it comes to such vague subects !)
 

Absurdity

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Take a few persons randomly and ask them their definition of intelligence...they all will have different answers. Just as religion, intelligence is about subjectivity.

What awful reasoning. Just because the average Joe doesn't know something doesn't make it subjective. The average Joe probably isn't a cognitive scientist and probably hasn't dedicated very much time to attempting to understand what intelligence is.
 

WALKYRIA

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What awful reasoning. Just because the average Joe doesn't know something doesn't make it subjective. The average Joe probably isn't a cognitive scientist and probably hasn't dedicated very much time to attempting to understand what intelligence is.



absurdity, the average joe might have better cognition/idea than your cognitive scientist who just read about others opinion ; that's the point in what i'm saying... sometimes the best ideas are coming from outside..and some cognitive scientists used to be average joes btw !
I'm in the science area and i'm positive that scientists are not as great as we(the average joe) might expect them to be, creatively speaking. Einstein was an exception, the other geniuses were from another era. Our society is killing geniuses. People just repeat what they ve heard, what they read, what they saw... but they never ever doubt about their information. Science is so fuckin biased nowadays(actually working in the wrong referential or paradigm); science just as religon is full of subjective objectivity(= paradigm); everthing is relative, all about referentials(=paradigm). Nowadays Scientists are so ST in their reasoning.
I don't know what you guys think of this !
 

Absurdity

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absurdity, the average joe might be more intelligent than your cognitive scientist that's the point in what i'm saying... sometimes the best ideas are coming from outside and...haha... some cognitive scientists used to be average joes!

Their intelligence or lack thereof wouldn't have a significant bearing upon whether or not they had dedicated any of their time to thinking about and trying to understand exactly what intelligence is.
 

Duxwing

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absurdity, the average joe might have better cognition/idea than your cognitive scientist who just read about others opinion ; that's the point in what i'm saying... sometimes the best ideas are coming from outside..and some cognitive scientists used to be average joes btw !
I'm in the science area and i'm positive that scientists are not as great as we(the average joe) might expect them to be, creatively speaking. Einstein was an exception, the other geniuses were from another era. Our society is killing geniuses. People just repeat what they ve heard, what they read, what they saw... but they never ever doubt about their information. Science is so fuckin biased nowadays(actually working in the wrong referential or paradigm); science just as religon is full of subjective objectivity(= paradigm); everthing is relative, all about referentials(=paradigm). Nowadays Scientists are so ST in their reasoning.
I don't know what you guys think of this !

The above is an example of moving the goalposts: you're moving this debate into solipsism just so that you can avoid admitting that you were wrong within the previous axiomatically construct: take your lumps like debater with a backbone. Moreover, since Moving the Goalposts is a logical fallacy, I'll quote Absurdity: "What awful reasoning".

-Duxwing
 

snafupants

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@snafupants, if I am understanding you, the sheer amount can be misleading, even if the percentage of individuals in either group who are obsessed about intelligence is roughly equal.

@Antediluvian

Pretty much. The amount of people "obsessed" about IQ tests could even be greater, by percentage, in the highest echelons, yet lower by sheer number.

I'm not convinced there's any such correlation, however.

That person I mentioned did have some strange notions concerning intellect, such as those with bipolar automatically having to be at the very least bright.

If anything, I would reverse the order by saying being very bright may lead to depression. In other words, simply being depressed doesn't confer an intellectual advantage.

I know that for me, depression actually crimps my intellectual fluidity and creativity. The tortured artist motif sells books but it doesn't help write them.
 

walfin

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@Antediluvian

That's a stupid statement for two reasons - it is wrong yet, number two, it is bound to look right because there are more above average than genius level people apropos the bell curve. Approximately 34% of people are between the mean and one positive standard deviation out; around 14% are between one and two standard deviations, which perhaps constitutes the "above average" group. So, sure, there might be more above average people looking into IQ tests than genius folk doing same, but that might be due to higher numbers of above average people and not a higher percentage propensity in one group. The people on the far, far right intrinsically have a lesser voice. Also, results could be confounded by one group being more visible or vociferous. Overall, though, the statement itself is borderline retarded.

You have only shown that the second is likely, but you haven't yet definitively shown that the statement in itself wrong.

Though given that IQ can be affected by environmental factors, it is possible that those who obsess about intelligence, rather than being "barred from the upper echelons", might actually inch toward it, doing everything in their power to gain intelligence if they can.
 

snafupants

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You have only shown that the second is likely, but you haven't yet definitively shown that the statement in itself wrong.

That's not how burden of proof works. :smoker:

An atheist need not "definitively" show the non-existence of god. @walfin
 

Ink

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A lot of "genius" is how you learn to use the brain, not what you were born with. So if one is spending time on proving oneself by appearing intelligent one cannot have genius thoughts.
 

snafupants

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A lot of "genius" is how you learn to use the brain, not what you were born with. So if one is spending time on proving oneself by appearing intelligent one cannot have genius thoughts.

True, there's only so much time and energy to go around. Overall, I would just suggest that super high IQ folk are perhaps no more inherently in/secure than "above average" folk. Doesn't obsessiveness allude to some insecurity, my friend?
 

walfin

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That's not how burden of proof works. :smoker:

An atheist need not "definitively" show the non-existence of god. @walfin

Fair enough, but a bare denial isn't a particularly convincing argument either even if you haven't the burden of proof. You didn't address the first point at all (i.e. why it is likely to be wrong, not just more likely to appear to be right even if it is wrong).
 

snafupants

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Fair enough, but a bare denial isn't a particularly convincing argument either even if you haven't the burden of proof. You didn't address the first point at all (i.e. why it is likely to be wrong, not just more likely to appear to be right even if it is wrong).

Read my last post. There's no convincing evidence that one group is more in/secure than another.

Any person can obsess about intelligence; ergo, faulty premise.
 

Antediluvian

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I know that for me, depression actually crimps my intellectual fluidity and creativity. The tortured artist motif sells books but it doesn't help write them.

Yes, I actually read a study (should keep a digital folder full of them) that suggested mental illness hampers creativity. Depressions zaps the life out of you, creativity doesn't seem magically immune. I think even artists with bipolar tend to create more work during their manic phases, there was one artist who didn't create any work whatsoever during his depressed states.
 

WALKYRIA

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I have the intuition that those who obsess about intelligence are the intelligent people who never accomplished their full potential... those people are generally frustrated, overthinking and depressed... vicious circle... suicide.
 

Teohrn

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I have the intuition that those who obsess about intelligence are the intelligent people who never accomplished their full potential... those people are generally frustrated, overthinking and depressed... vicious circle... suicide.

I wouldn't say they obsess about intelligence as much as they obsess about acknowledgement. Chris Langan, who has a measured IQ of 200 +/-10, seems to be such a case. (Curiously, it also seems that while recognition is important for those sorts of people, they will not leave their principles and self in trade of it. This may perhaps be why they never gain the recognition they yearn.)

Lack of fulfillment often implies a potential for it to begin with. Thus stupid or average people rarely if ever regret that they didn't become scientists, philosophers, authors and so on. Such thoughts probably never even occur to them; if they did, they would firmly plant themselves on the ground again, and rightly so.

On the other hand, those with potential realize that they could be all that, that they could be better off and that they're too high maintenance to do as the mediocre.

Someone mediocre will, more often than not, settle for mediocrity; and all imagery of anything of an elevated nature is more often false and a reflection of external influences. Which is why everyone wants to be the next 50 Cent, Lil Wayne and Britney Spears, not the next Newton, Einstein or Socrates, all widely known and recognized and highly esteemed figures yet too detached. They are as equal to the latter as they are able to jump from the Earth to the Sun (and return). It would defy nature. The animalistic cycle of life is enough for them, they are therefore not much too different from animals. One could even argue that anything else appears to be the forbidden fruit to them. So alien is that which separates mankind from other animals and heightens mankind above other animals that they are xenophobic towards it. However, the same is not true for the elevated man.

The point is that one does not desire that which one cannot taste. The elevated man can taste, the mediocre man cannot. Capacity as a means does not in itself yield an end. Therefore, the apt either eat the apple or fail to because the branch from which it hangs on is too high, yet still lusts it, because the apt knows it is good.

Feel free to spot me for exuberance, inconsistencies and wrongs; feel free to condense my aqueous ramblings, that is. :D
 

walfin

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Yes, I actually read a study (should keep a digital folder full of them) that suggested mental illness hampers creativity. Depressions zaps the life out of you, creativity doesn't seem magically immune. I think even artists with bipolar tend to create more work during their manic phases, there was one artist who didn't create any work whatsoever during his depressed states.

But what about all them sad songs?
 
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