are the types more/less extreme in different countries?

[AureliaSeverina]

For those of you who have lived in a different country or travelled extensively, do you find that cultural differences make it more difficult to type people?
I'm an INTJ from Germany originally but am living in England. I get the impression that the E/I dimension is more pronounced in Germany. I.e. extraverted people are on average more gregarious, loud etc. than in England and they approach others more directly. Introverts seem more solitary, quiet or aloof. I was reading "The Xenophobe's Guide to the Germans" (a hilarious series that toys with national stereotypes) and the authors said that "the German" is very strange because one the one hand he is obsessed with sports clubs and group activities and on the other hand he walks around in the forest on his own in a pensive mood. Actually, I think they are describing two very different kinds of Germans. I don't personally know anyone who does both these things in such an extreme way, it's either - or.
Anyway, here in England even INTJs and INTPs seem more involved in group activities. I think I've identified at least two INTPs and two INTJs at work. Of the INTJs, one does walk off and go home whenever there is a meeting. The other one is always either on a secret mission of his own or observing people, but when it comes to socialising it's invariably in a group. He does need to know in advance who exactly is going out, but he is disappointed when it's only 3 or 4 people.
As for INTPs, my German INTP friend is so true to type that if the type didn't exist already, it would have to be invented just for him. The two INTPs here are a lot more mellow and vague and seem to have far better developed Fe. Also they are able to comment on their own behaviour in a light-hearted manner and seem to be more aware of how they are different from others. I wonder whether this is because the cultural ideal here seems to be ISFJ and thus Fe is encouraged? So it's easier for INTPs to develop Fe because it is modelled by others more???
Some examples:
- German male INTP puzzled about how illogical the world is:
puzzled+serious+likely go into Ti-Si loop if you try to explain it to him
-English male INTP: puzzled+amused, won't stop being puzzled about the
same phenomenon in the long term, but can move on quickly to another
matter and assumes the fault lies with his own limited understanding
rather than with the world at large
- German male INTP feeling neglected by the world: stands in a corner
and avoids eye contact, gives people who approach him weird looks, sits
on his own and secretly bristles when people give up on him
- English female INTP feeling neglected: sits with people and says "Look,
this is a card from the lovely [her name], whom you all love to hate."
- German male INTP forced into boss-role: gets extremely aloof and
patronizes people, is hurt and backs off immediately when people
talk back to him
- English female INTP: lurks around for a bit before she (reluctantly) takes
the stage but delivers bossy message with a twinkle in her eyes and
looks as if she's thinking "LOL, I'm rubbish, what moron gave me this job,
am I doing this right? LOL LOL LOL"
- German male INTP attends social gathering, sits on his own and bristles,
then suddenly jumps up and runs to catch his train after an hour
without saying bye
- English male INTP: disappears before the gathering starts in the first
place, later on comments that his wife always teases him because he
doesn't hear what people are saying at parties, seems infinitely puzzled
and amused at himself and wonders what is wrong with his ears.
- English female INTP: initiates small group activities when others'
attempts at bringing a large group together have failed
- both English INTPs: are so well-camouflaged that they were off my radar for 1.5 years. They could be any type (within reasonable limits) = social chameleon. German INTP: appears different, unique and from a different planet at first glance while looking very conventional and well-behaved at the same time.
As for the extraverts, some of them can be extremely gregarious, but they are far less pushy than German extraverts. German Es tell people "You MUST come with us on this and that trip." If you don't do it, they'll pester you to death. English extraverts might ask you once or twice whether you are coming. Or they might tell you what events are going on, but they give up sooner or later and don't normally tell you directly that YOU personally must go there WITH THEM.

Anyway, sorry for rambling. Have you observed something similar? Do you know any countries where the differences between the type's behaviour are either more blurred or more pronounced than in your own country? Do introverts in the US habitually come across as more extraverted than in other countries? Do extraverts in Japan seem more introverted? Etc. Do people of the same type from different countries present very differently? And is this because of the cultural differences or is it just variation within types independent of culture?

 

[samjonathan]

First of all i'd like to say that i really like your post, so much so that i have decided to actually log back on for the first time in months in order to respond

From my knowledge of the two counrties i have lived in (England and Australia), i would say there is definitely a diference in the expressive behaviour of different types in different countries
I think your view of INTPs in england is pretty acurate and your comment on ISFJ being the ideal seems plausible
I'm not claiming to know much but i'd say that maybe here in Australia INTPs can be more lazy and careless (undeveloped Si maybe) because there is a bit of an attitude here that doesn't place much value on attention to detail, i can't quite put my finger on exactly what this "attitude" is but it kind of feels like an artsy, free expresion, almost hippyish lazy NF kind of attitude compared to the SJness of England, almost like a rebelious forced attitude change in juxtaposition to that of the "motherland" or whatever
Also i'd say in Australia eccentricity is encouraged more, Ns are more accepted, and as a painful result Ss immitating behaviours of Ns
Although this all may have something to do with the kind of people i usually find myself in social situations with, the city i live in, and the amount of weed smoked by quite a large proportion of the population in the city i live in

However, this could all be a load of rubish, i do, as you may have noticed, have a bit of an biased view of things regarding comparison of the two countries, hope i've contributed in some kind of helpful way, shape or form

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Hey Sam, thanks for your very interesting reply.
Ss behaving like Ns? Now that sounds ... interesting.
I'm going to Germany for two weeks over Easter. I'll see if I can observe anything similar there..... Can you give an example? I know some S tyypes in Germany who try very hard to be 'intellectual' but they just end up quoting facts/ details with great gusto. They don't notice that the Ns are on a different level.

 

[Architect]

Interesting observations. I've spent a bunch of time in Germany and Japan. In Japan behaviors are definitely more constrained, with the odd exception of the extroverted Japanese guy, who almost over extend due to the generally introverted culture.

Taking a step back I'd say the typology isn't about the letters ('this guy is acting introverted'), but the functions, which give rise to orientations, rather than behaviors. In this I mean orientations lead to behaviors, but its probably dangerous to look too closely at behaviors to determine type. I can act quite extroverted and organized, but my orientation is different.

So in this example, I'd say fundamentally people are probably the same - their type is a form of hardwired programming, and that orientation is expressed as behaviors differently depending on cultural elements.

So yes, people are more or less extreme in different countries, but that's probably more type expression via behaviors, rather than different fundamental orientation.

 

[samjonathan]

Hey Sam, thanks for your very interesting reply.
Ss behaving like Ns? Now that sounds ... interesting.
I'm going to Germany for two weeks over Easter. I'll see if I can observe anything similar there..... Can you give an example? I know some S tyypes in Germany who try very hard to be 'intellectual' but they just end up quoting facts/ details with great gusto. They don't notice that the Ns are on a different level.

yeah, this is kind of the thing i was talking about, it's mainly SJs thinking that by copying the observable behaviours of a few people that they think are "unique individuals" (NPs usually) then they themselves can become special and different but still accpeted, for example a... 'friend' of mine has been doing this since i met her, and i could just tell there was something false about the way she acted, thought it was a bit strage that when i expressed the slightest interest in something then the next day i found out she was soooooo interested in it, thankfully she moved on to other Ns to leech off, now she thinks she's an artist and a poet, uses big long words which she scarecly knows the meaning of, keeping vases of dead flowers because they're "beautiful" and dead animals to keep their bones (not realising that the person she's copying likes to paint dead things for very differnt reasons), that kind of thing, and yeah she doesn't notice that there are particular cognitive motivations behind the behaviours of the people she's copying and that her motivation to fit in with these people is ultimately what is making her not fit in etc. and the only people that seem to notice this are my NTP friends, the NFs generally think she's "different" or whatever (until they get too close and realise how twisted she is), and the SJs and SPs just think she's weird (except those Ss trying to be Ns)

i dunno if that made a whole lot of sense or helped at all but that's kinda how i see it

Architect: I completely agree with you on that, the hardwiring of types definitely doesn't change, but i think the development of the cognitive functions, and by extension, the orientations of people and their outward expression of personailty through behaviour are definitely affected by where you grow up and the attitudes of the society you live in, which can make people of the same type in different countries seem to be quite different

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Sam, that's really interesting and creepy... not because of the dead animals, but because of the copying.

 

[Cosmic]

i don't think she's a leech; she just sounds like a lonely, detached individual with an identity crisis.

sorry, this is all i can contribute to this interesting thread atm =x

 

[samjonathan]

i don't think she's a leech; she just sounds like a lonely, detached individual with an identity crisis.

hmm if this is true i kind of feel bad for criticising, but at the same time i can't relate

 

[samjonathan]

Sam, that's really interesting and creepy... not because of the dead animals, but because of the copying.

yeah it is kinda, but you get used to it, and i learned that if you just don't react to what she does she stops doing it as much

 

[Pyropyro]

Sam, that's really interesting and creepy... not because of the dead animals, but because of the copying.

Though I think emulating traits from certain people would be beneficial for improving your identity (eg mimicking Benjamin Franklin's industriousness) copying certain quirks without knowing its context is a bit too far (eg dressing up like Benjamin Franklin)

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Though I think emulating traits from certain people would be beneficial for improving your identity (eg mimicking Benjamin Franklin's industriousness) copying certain quirks without knowing its context is a bit too far (eg dressing up like Benjamin Franklin)

Oh well, I pick up mannerisms from people all the time and they pick up mine. But consciously copying someone's hobbies and interests is a bit different.

 

[C.J_Finn]

i don't think she's a leech; she just sounds like a lonely, detached individual with an identity crisis.

Yeah, that's what this sounds like to me. As someone else has said, there's a big difference between picking up things that others do and acting like them for no reason. I think she might have some sort of mental issue to be doing things like this.


Now, to answer OP. I'm sure this is true about INTPs (or any type for that matter) being different depending on the culture that they grew up in, but I have a friend in England that took the MBTI and came back as an INTP that is very close to me in terms of personality (and I'm from the US). The only real differences between the two of us is that he seems to be more of a feeler than I am and he also seems to be much more nostalgic than I am.

Can someone with experience with INFPs from different countries tell me about the differences that they've noticed? The only reason I ask is because I know three people that took the MBTI and came back as INFPs (two over the internet, and one that I went to school with) and they all seem to have things in common. They all seem to have this mindset where they seem to like almost everything. One is obsessed with cats, the one that I went to school with seems to be an extreme introvert (she's seen me at the library several times and only tells me that she's seen me via facebook messages) and the other was telling me that he has actually thought of getting a tattoo of a garden gnome (after I jokingly asked him because I read that on an old thread on here). They all seem to have a thing for some form of art too (whether it's music, painting, dance, etc.).

 

[AureliaSeverina]

Hum, I'm in Germany now and there seem to be LOADs of xSTJs. Yesterday we went to the zoo and there was a constant background noise of people announcing their plans.
E.g. some mother on the loo to her child: "Now we're gonna walk past the monkeys and then you can have an ice cream and then we can go to town." The child hadn't even asked what was going to happen next. Also, people commented on EVERYTHING they saw with German precision, even when they were in a group of adults. I.e. it wasn't because they were explaining things to children. For example some goats were eating old Christmas trees right in front of a group of people, and one bloke said "Look they are eating old Christmas trees." A woman in another group said "Look they are eating the old Christmas trees that Nuremberg people have thrown away." OMG, as if the other members of their group where blind.
Do sensors from other countries do this to the same extent? In England, S people seem to be more capable of keeping their observations to themselves.
Haven't observed any S types trying to be more N, thouhg. LOL, that's probably because I've been hiding in my bed.