Are INTP theories really that hard to understand?

[ashitaria]

It's hard to comprehend that XNTXs are the only ones able to understand theories created by XNTXs. Of course, that may be because I am an INTP, but there is a feeling I cannot shake off.

For example, I can understand with relative ease Agent Intellect's theory of consciousness, and Lyra's view of sexuality in the modern world, but if I can understand it, why can't other types (except NTs of course)?

Of course, since most of you have such events happening in real life, you guys might find that easy to comprehend, but in my life, the theories I present are easily understood by my peers though they don't show any interest in them. After all, controversy is a form of showing that you understand, and that is something that my peers do, with logical and rational reasons.

No, I am not in college, I am in High School. And unless I am in a classroom filled with INTPs that hate being INTPs, this is pretty much proves that our theories isn't as confusing as to other types as we think. Any thoughts on this?

Either that or my theories stink (along with my limited vocab).

P.S- I'm going to experiment on them tomorrow before confirming because it's a good chance my theories are over simplified.

 

[Adymus]

Okay back up a bit... Where exactly did you get the idea that Non NTs cannot understand NTs?


That could not be more wrong, you are apparently just surrounding yourself with the wrong SPs and NFs if you think that. Because my NF friends are easily on par with the average NT if not above par.

 

[Ermine]

I don't think it's a matter of comprehension as much as it is wording the theories in a way that makes people interested and engaged. I have no doubt that the average person can understand the theories discussed in this forum. It's just a matter of portraying it in a way that they want to understand.

 

[NothingTodo]

When i do theories i tend to use smaller worlds. like the theory on my singature on the speed of dark

 

[ashitaria]

Okay back up a bit... Where exactly did you get the idea that Non NTs cannot understand NTs?


That could not be more wrong, you are apparently just surrounding yourself with the wrong SPs and NFs if you think that. Because my NF friends are easily on par with the average NT if not above par.

If you read between the lines, it is not I who has gotten the idea that non NTs cannot understand NTs, it is just that I am questioning the claim of Non NTs being unable to understand NTs.

@ other members. Ty for the explanations. It always bothered me how other members talked about the way people couldn't understand what they said. From what I see, must be an exaggeration.

 

[Adymus]

Okay now I just want to know who is making this claim.

But I really don't know what to tell you, I've never really had my theories not be comprehended by other types that are not SJs or SFs.

I've had people not take interest in them, but I wouldn't throw that in the same pool with not comprehending.

 

[ashitaria]

Okay now I just want to know who is making this claim.

But I really don't know what to tell you, I've never really had my theories not be comprehended by other types that are not SJs or SFs.

I've had people not take interest in them, but I wouldn't throw that in the same pool with not comprehending.

Yeah, that was what I thought as much as well. I don't want to name members, but there are certain members who brag about people being unable to understand their complex theories. Anyway, Let's just let this thread die and a mod delete it.

Sorry Adymus, though curiosity is a big part of an INTPs life, so is privacy, and frankness is something I have learned to keep to myself.

/fail thread XD

 

[Audentia]

Okay back up a bit... Where exactly did you get the idea that Non NTs cannot understand NTs?


That could not be more wrong, you are apparently just surrounding yourself with the wrong SPs and NFs if you think that. Because my NF friends are easily on par with the average NT if not above par.

Agreed. I can completely understand NT theories and thoughts and even patiently follow along with the INTPs struggle with finding the right words in order to explain/express their thoughts and ideas which is pretty entertaining actually. And even their tendency to way over analyze is amusing, because often I've already understood what they're trying to convey or explain before they went into over analyzing frustration, but it's fun to see where they go. So long as they don't get their egos going or an air of superiority which will need to be brought back to reality, lol, and they do.

I think INTPs and INFPs are pretty on the level intellectually speaking. We both have voracious appetites for knowledge and self-education, we both enjoy debates and discussing anything interesting. And on the upside, we don't get bogged down in over analyzing everything, generally we understand people pretty easily thanks to the N and F.

That said, INTPs are able to bore us at times, lol..

 

[ashitaria]

Agreed. I can completely understand NT theories and thoughts and even patiently follow along with the INTPs struggle with finding the right words in order to explain/express their thoughts and ideas which is pretty entertaining actually. And even their tendency to way over analyze is amusing, because often I've already understood what they're trying to convey or explain before they went into over analyzing frustration, but it's fun to see where they go. So long as they don't get their egos going or an air of superiority which will need to be brought back to reality, lol, and they do.

I think INTPs and INFPs are pretty on the level intellectually speaking. We both have voracious appetites for knowledge and self-education, we both enjoy debates and discussing anything interesting. And on the upside, we don't get bogged down in over analyzing everything, generally we understand people pretty easily thanks to the N and F.

That said, INTPs are able to bore us at times, lol..

I guess we all do agree. There are times I wish I was an INFP, though *cough* certain members take too much pride in being INTP (not naming, embarrassment is not my style).

In any case, my apology to everyone for making such a stupid thread.

 

[Adymus]

That said, INTPs are able to bore us at times, lol..

Well excuse me for neglecting to put enough unicorns and rainbows into my theories!

 

[Words]

I'm an INTP but I didn't understand both of those guys' "theories"... peh..

Its not a stupid thread. if anything is..

 

[Audentia]

Well excuse me for neglecting to put enough unicorns and rainbows into my theories!

ROFL! You're excused . Btw, I didn't mean you Adymus! I was partly kidding. Mainly the only ones that get bore-ish are the INTPs who have way too much ego and get too self-centered and in love with themselves for being INTPs like Ashitaria mentioned. Considered less intelligent simply for being an INFP instead of an INTP, well, that gets boring in a hurry .

I don't doubt there are some heavily logic based skills INTPs are naturally better at than INFPs. Each has their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Audentia]

Sneaky, sneaky. Was it you Adymus that removed the mypersonality profile off my signature? Oh well. My signature was annoyingly long anyway.

 

[Audentia]

Nevermind! That was weird.

 

[Darby]

I have the issue of assuming nobody understands what I'm talking about, but it is only because I am terrible at describing things

I think very visually, and when trying to articulate my thoughts, they often become diluted, and as a result, I assume people got what I said rather than what I meant(which is rarely the case, and instead they think I'm an asshole for thinking they didn't understand/are stupid)

 

[Anthile]

 

[Words]

Nevermind! That was weird.

I vote INFP for you.

 

[Cognisant]

Different types focus on different things, INTPs & INTJs for example are primarily focused on information, with INTPs preferring esoteric ideas (theories, hypothesises, probabilities, etc) while INTJs prefer hard data (facts, figures, statistics, etc). This is why INTJs often think INTPs are tiring, and INTPs often find INTJs to be abrasive; our focus practically determines our interests, and so it's extraordinarily difficult to engage people of different types in the same conversation with the same level of interest.

It's not that non-INTPs don't understand us, they just don't care about the oddball, neigh stratospheric, rational abstractions we like to think about.

 

[lafmeche]

And even their tendency to way over analyze is amusing

And on the upside, we don't get bogged down in over analyzing everything

You're underanalyzing!

Well excuse me for neglecting to put enough unicorns and rainbows into my theories!

I laughed out loud at that one. Now my office buddy is looking at me funny...

Edit: Missed this..

It's not that non-INTPs don't understand us, they just don't care about the oddball, neigh stratospheric, rational abstractions we like to think about.

This is the heart of the issue. Nearly every thread or discussion I've read/heard about this has an INTP talking about how they're brilliant and nobody can understand them, which is plain silly. It's nice to see that we're not all like that.

 

[Latro]

MBTI talks about preference, not aptitude. An NT would probably tend to be more interested in your theories, and while that might increase their grasp of them a little (if only from sheer practice) that doesn't mean other types would have any trouble.

 

[BigApplePi]

ashitaria asked, "Are INTP theories really that hard to understand?"

OreSama said, "It's not that non-INTPs don't understand us, they just don't care about the oddball, neigh stratospheric, rational abstractions we like to think about."

I agree. If understanding fails, it's because they don't want to. Or if they do understand, they don't agree which is the same thing as not understanding.

 

[Da Blob]

Yeah, that was what I thought as much as well. I don't want to name members, but there are certain members who brag about people being unable to understand their complex theories. Anyway, Let's just let this thread die and a mod delete it.

Sorry Adymus, though curiosity is a big part of an INTPs life, so is privacy, and frankness is something I have learned to keep to myself.

/fail thread XD

Well, just on the 'off chance' that I am one of the un-named members...lol

I do think that it does take genius to understand genius and there is a correlation between NTs and high I. Q. - of course, it is not a 100% correlation, NTs do not have a monopoly on high IQs and it is pretty evident that not every NT is actually highly intelligent,(but many pretend to be)

Personally, I do not fault others for not being able to understand much of what I write - because it is my fault. They do not share my frame of reference and I falsely assume that they do so. I mistakingly believe that everyone is interested in Cognitive Development and Spirituality and have educated themselves on these topics. I could invest in time and effort in translating some of the jargon i use to easily understood generic terminology, but that would entail some real work and this forum is not the place to have to work, but rather a place to play

 

[Firehazard159]

(but many pretend to be)

I know I do!

XD

Or something. Anyway. I completely understand the inability to properly communicate ideas, which I presume are mostly in part due to how abstract our thinking can be. There are some things that just make sense in my head, but once I try to communicate them... well... epic fail.

There's also a 'joke'? about the difference between INTP's and INTJ's being that INTJ's will detail out every step and come up with the right answer, where INTP's will just kind of ponder for a bit, give you steps 1, 3, 6, 7, and then give you the answer. Or something like that. I'm probably skipping a few steps (It was also insulting to INTP's, so of course I re-flavor it a bit XD)

My point though, is that I think I make a lot of intuitive connections in my head that I can't really follow, so trying to communicate them becomes difficult. (Possibly due to Ni being a background INTP function rather than a prominent function like it is for INTJ's?)

 

[reputo]

I don't think it is a lack of comprehension when I tell people my crazy thoughts. It is just that they don't find it as infinitely interesting or relevant as I do and therefore could care less. Sometimes I can misunderstand that for lack of comprehension.

 

[warryer]

I know I do!
My point though, is that I think I make a lot of intuitive connections in my head that I can't really follow, so trying to communicate them becomes difficult. (Possibly due to Ni being a background INTP function rather than a prominent function like it is for INTJ's?)

Yea this is an odd thing. I do the same thing, all of a sudden I know. It's impossible for me to describe how or why I know. The feeling is so satisfying though. Sometimes I feel like a computer.

I am terrible at articulating my thoughts when speaking. Writing is much easier because you get to read and re-read then wonder how the words will be taken... does this get my meaning across? When I speak I want to say everything all at once so I tend to fumble over my words, long pauses, going on tangents, etc... I can see how this would get tedious as it's not neatly pre-packed information

I also assume that people are able to follow my logic jumps like Firehazard was describing. More often than not I will have to go back and baby-step it through (you mean you can't read minds?).

My one friend told me that I always had some little fact to say about damn near everything. Think snapple cans. "did you know..." watch the eyes glaze over.

 

[Adymus]

Different types focus on different things, INTPs & INTJs for example are primarily focused on information, with INTPs preferring esoteric ideas (theories, hypothesises, probabilities, etc) while INTJs prefer hard data (facts, figures, statistics, etc). This is why INTJs often think INTPs are tiring, and INTPs often find INTJs to be abrasive; our focus practically determines our interests, and so it's extraordinarily difficult to engage people of different types in the same conversation with the same level of interest.

It's not that non-INTPs don't understand us, they just don't care about the oddball, neigh stratospheric, rational abstractions we like to think about.

I wouldn't even lump INTPs and INTJ into the same catagory here, because even we don't focus on the same information. An INTJ's main focus is the entire system, what it will do, and how it will all fit together. I've actually had INTJs get annoyed with me because they thought I was focusing too much on the logic of the Te within the system, and not just seeing the whole picture.

 

[lafmeche]

I wouldn't even lump INTPs and INTJ into the same catagory here, because even we don't focus on the same information. An INTJ's main focus is the entire system, what it will do, and how it will all fit together. I've actually had INTJs get annoyed with me because they thought I was focusing too much on the logic of the Te within the system, and not just seeing the whole picture.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but are you sure you're not taking something that's mostly specific to yourself and applying it to all INTPs?

While INTPs might generally prefer abstract concepts (and INTJs less so), I'm not convinced that our focus (INTPs/INTJs) is that fundamentally different. I've never had or seen the difficulty you're describing. The only real 'issue' I've run into with INTJs in these situations is that they sometimes get annoyed with me because they get the impression that I don't have any follow-through (not true... I just like to have all the information before I act ).

 

[NothingTodo]

I agure with INTJs alot. Im not even sure why. I got in a fight with an intj about the best cookie.
I was talking about how chocolate chips can be everywhere and everyone loves them and he was talking about how oatmeal cookies were a much more secure and healthier.
"DUDE WTF ITS A COOKE WHY SHOULD IT BE HEALTHY?"

 

[Agent Intellect]

I think it ultimately comes down to communication. When I talk about something, it makes sense to me, but a lot of the understanding is lost when the concept is converted into language. People that think alike (ie, two INTP's) are more likely to make the same intuitive leaps that the other has made when formulating their theory. It's not that a different type lacks the magnitude of intelligence to understand an INTP, but lacks the flavor of intelligence - just look at the human relationships subforum to see the sorts of intelligences that INTP's are inadequate at.

As far as INTP's and INTJ's, I wouldn't be fooled by the three letter similarity. The difference between P and J is probably the biggest difference, because it completely changes the functions (Ni instead of Ne, Te instead of Ti), and what is dominant (dominant perceiving instead of judging). I often wonder why NT's are grouped together because the similarities in INTP's and INTJ's is really only skin deep.

From what I understand, the way the two types formulate theories happens almost in reverse, with INTP's having more of a divergent, branching out way of connecting concepts and INTJ's having a more convergent, synthesizing of concepts way of theorizing. I sort of pictured Ne as sort of like a funnel, pulling in random things from outside so that Ti can label them and put them on the shelves, where Ni was more like a funnel pointed inward, taking the "already knowns" (perhaps acquired through their Se?) and funneling them outwards, with the Te actually categorizing and putting things on their shelves in reality. To sum it up: INTP's build inner models based on input from reality, INTJ's use inner models of reality as output for organizing reality in a logical way.

In this way, I see INTP's as being both objective in that they are more likely to formulate theories about how the world does work, but also subjective in that their internal models become a part of themselves, having personal value; INTJ's, on the other hand, are subjective in that they are more likely to formulate theories about how the world should work (or so they believe), but also objective in that their theories tend to be more separated from themselves - they will be stalwart about their ideas because the logic is (to them) flawless, but they may not have as deep of a personal connection to it.

 

[Adymus]

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but are you sure you're not taking something that's mostly specific to yourself and applying it to all INTPs?

While INTPs might generally prefer abstract concepts (and INTJs less so), I'm not convinced that our focus (INTPs/INTJs) is that fundamentally different. I've never had or seen the difficulty you're describing. The only real 'issue' I've run into with INTJs in these situations is that they sometimes get annoyed with me because they get the impression that I don't have any follow-through (not true... I just like to have all the information before I act ).

I am applying the theory of the INTP and INTJ personality and using my own experiences as an Example.

INTJs will focus on Ni, which is the whole picture of their model and how it all fits together.

An INTP will Focus mainly on The Ti of the Model, which will question the logic of each part of that whole picture.

The INTJs I have known who are still working on their model and had not quite worked out the logic of how it will all work together, have at times got annoyed that I was focusing on that.

Maybe that hasn't happened to you, but I'm just saying we are not the same and should not be lumped in together. INTJs and INTPs have two completely different goals and focuses.

PS: Since when do INTPs prefer more abstract concepts than INTJs?

 

[ashitaria]

I thought every "N" prefers abstract theories?

 

[Adymus]

I thought every "N" prefers abstract theories?

Did you not just say that INTJs prefer more abstract concepts less than INTPs?

What gave you that idea?

 

[Audentia]

I agure with INTJs alot. Im not even sure why. I got in a fight with an intj about the best cookie.
I was talking about how chocolate chips can be everywhere and everyone loves them and he was talking about how oatmeal cookies were a much more secure and healthier.
"DUDE WTF ITS A COOKE WHY SHOULD IT BE HEALTHY?"

And why do you need a secure cookie ? Lol. Chocolate chip rules, no question.

 

[bovinity]

I thought every "N" prefers abstract theories?

They do, albeit in different ways.

INTP=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it functions on a logical basis
XNTJ=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it ties into the larger picture
XNFP=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it applies to them personally
XNFJ=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it applies to humanity/their community/their loved ones
ENTP=Looks at an idea, finds a flaw in it, cracks a joke about it, continues playing WoW

Whereas SJ's and SP's would probably ignore these same ideas altogether.

 

[Cognisant]

This is the heart of the issue. Nearly every thread or discussion I've read/heard about this has an INTP talking about how they're brilliant and nobody can understand them, which is plain silly. It's nice to see that we're not all like that.

Oh no-no-no, I am brilliant

 

[NothingTodo]

And why do you need a secure cookie ? Lol. Chocolate chip rules, no question.

He thinks everything he knows everything and is smarter and better then me. I created a new life goal to outsmart him and ruin his life. Yes cookies do not need to be secure or healthy but apparently there better then chocolate chips.

 

[ashitaria]

Did you not just say that INTJs prefer more abstract concepts less than INTPs?

What gave you that idea?

First off, I"M BACK!!

Now back to buisness.

Ah hem. I think that all "N"s prefer abstract concept equally, never did I say that INTJs preferred concepts more than INTPs.

Who gave you the idea that my idea suggested that INTJs, were less abstract concept orientated than INTPs?

 

[bodhisattvafication]

i don't think other types send text messages to themselves like
"OMG 2day=3/14 Pie Day my happiness has a 99% of being infinite"

 

[ashitaria]

i don't think other types send text messages to themselves like
"OMG 2day=3/14 Pie Day my happiness has a 99% of being infinite"

I don't think that a text massage like that is meant to be understood.

Sorry. :P

 

[LAM]

I don't understand Lyra's view of ehh sexuality?? I thought this was part of something met astructure once said abou a non-physical sex drive. Now that was interesting. Lyra's broken sentences and "artistical" expression of it confused me as it gave nothing from which someone who had never even heard of this before could understand without context. The sentences had apparently no structure and didn't seem to be doing anything. (this is the schizosexuality forum right?)
Although to be fair I did such philosophical wankery when I did a second-person story about the peril of the continuation of corruption and ignorance in the people and countries of the western world for my english exam's short story. Suffice to say the teachers didn't understand, even if I had included an analogy to Plato's cave allegory. </p>

 

[Adymus]

First off, I"M BACK!!

Now back to buisness.

Ah hem. I think that all "N"s prefer abstract concept equally, never did I say that INTJs preferred concepts more than INTPs.

Who gave you the idea that my idea suggested that INTJs, were less abstract concept orientated than INTPs?

Yeah sorry man, it was actually Lafmeche that made that comment, and for some reason I thought it was you, lol.

 

[Geminii]

I have found that sometimes an idea needs to be couched in language that the recipient is most able to understand.

For example, I do business consulting. I analyse administrative and IT workflows and determine how to streamline them using combinations of all kinds of things - retraining, a little custom software here and there, some policy tweaks. I can see all these things and how they affect one another, as if they were laid out on a huge multidimensional canvas.

But when I'm talking to the managers, I say "I can save you gobs of money and increase your per-minute processing capacity." Because that's what they're keyed to listen for. They don't care about the how or the why, or that it will improve morale or upgrade the working environment into the bargain. They just want dollars and time. (And time is pretty much dollars.)

 

[lafmeche]

I agure with INTJs alot. Im not even sure why. I got in a fight with an intj about the best cookie.
I was talking about how chocolate chips can be everywhere and everyone loves them and he was talking about how oatmeal cookies were a much more secure and healthier.
"DUDE WTF ITS A COOKE WHY SHOULD IT BE HEALTHY?"

I've seen that. I think it's because they often 'know' what's best and won't change their minds without some kind of evidence. Unfortunately, the arguments seem to be about things that are completely subjective and cannot be proven one way or the other.

I am applying the theory of the INTP and INTJ personality and using my own experiences as an Example.

INTJs will focus on Ni, which is the whole picture of their model and how it all fits together.

An INTP will Focus mainly on The Ti of the Model, which will question the logic of each part of that whole picture.

The INTJs I have known who are still working on their model and had not quite worked out the logic of how it will all work together, have at times got annoyed that I was focusing on that.

Maybe that hasn't happened to you, but I'm just saying we are not the same and should not be lumped in together. INTJs and INTPs have two completely different goals and focuses.

PS: Since when do INTPs prefer more abstract concepts than INTJs?

It’s been a while since I’ve had time to visit, so I’m playing a bit of catch-up here.

Perhaps I didn’t express the thought very well (wouldn't be the first time). I am certainly not suggesting that INTPs and INTJs are the same. In my experience, INTPs tend to be interested in understanding why/how things work, while INTJs are more focused on how to apply them. In that manner, INTPs are more abstract.

That said, both INTPs and INTJs are starting with and building from the same set of information. So, while we may not be going the same place or in the same manner, we will (in my experiences anyway) cross paths many times on the way to our respective goals.

They do, albeit in different ways.

INTP=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it functions on a logical basis
XNTJ=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it ties into the larger picture
XNFP=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it applies to them personally
XNFJ=Looks at an idea and tries to figure out how it applies to humanity/their community/their loved ones
ENTP=Looks at an idea, finds a flaw in it, cracks a joke about it, continues playing WoW

Whereas SJ's and SP's would probably ignore these same ideas altogether.

As a quick and dirty description of the types, I’d say I mostly agree with that.

To get back to the original topic, I think communication is the heart of this discussion. The types aren’t so fundamentally different that we’re incapable of understanding each other. It's just that ideas that exist solely in our brains can be very hard to put into clumsy words. Many (most?) people suck at that kind of translation.

 

[chaomon]

I think our theories were easy to understand, its just that some thinks that its hard because of the information that we were giving to them. People sometimes cant process too much information. We make complicated things turn into simple and simple to broader ideas.