Are ESFJ's bogey-men?

[Puffy]

I don't read threads related to MBTI that often but one thing I seem to notice is that ESFJ's and indeed most SF's seem to be portrayed as villains in a sense that can just never understand us. Some people in the forum even seem to have vilolent attitudes towards them, is this really the case?

The reason I ask: I came to university in october and since have made new friends, I recently introduced them to MBTI because I was curious what they'd come out as. My best friend who I met on the first day is an ESFJ, my good friend I've made recently whom I have a 40,000 email dialogue going on philosophy, dream interpretation and religion- ISFJ. A similar friend who I was certain was an ISTP- ESFJ. A girl on my floor who I really bonded with and similarly have had countless deep discussions on politics and relational stuff- ESFJ. I'm apart of a Christian hallgroup and made a fair few friends there I tested all of them 80% came out as SF's- All my friends are SFs and I've never had much issue with them.

In opposition there's a INTJ on my floor who I cannot stand honestly most irritating guy. Being fair there is a INTJ guy I've met who is cool but off of the discussion of atheism v theism there's nothing for us to connect on.

Are SFs the big bogey men we make them out to be or do some of us just have Daddy issues?

(I'm INTJ btw so an interesting sub topic might be if INTJ's connect better with SFs than INTPs?)

 

[Fukyo]

Theoretically speaking, yes an INTP has a high chance of personal incompatibility with an SFJ, but then again, it still depends on the kind of person and the kind of relationship.

SFJ bashing is a very common occurrence on virtually any typlogy forum I've ever seen. Mostly by INTPs. Just look at this. That's pure inferior Fe bias.

In fact, this is nothing more but biases and strong resentfulness resulting from negative experiences with the bad apples in their lives.

My point is that the two types are different and conflict, but in my opinion there is a lot of exaggeration and misinformation floating about as well. I know from personal experience that Fe users can be emotionally abusive, but one of my best childhood friends for instance is probably an ISFJ and I've never had an issue with her.

 

[ProxyAmenRa]

It would appear people have had bad dealings with this type of personality. I know I have had one or two such prolonged bad experiences. Though, I have met a few of them that did not get under my nerves and admired my independence. Once again, it is up to the person who you are dealing with and well they are developed as a human being.

 

[Beat Mango]

80% of your Christian group SFs, no surprise there.

 

[soraya]

I'm INTJ too and I have 3 ISFJ friends. I've been pretty close to all of them at one point or another. My college's social structure is pretty strictly divided based on gender so I almost always am forced to be around other women and, since statistically there are more NT men than women, this kind of sucks for me.

That being said, my ISFJ friends are not bad at all and I certainly value their friendship. Also, I have met some really immature INTJs that I hate being around. In that case, I value my ISFJ friends far more than that crappy immature INTJ. However, I have found several things.

1. If given the chance to hang out with a well developed INTP or INTJ OR hang out with one of my ISFJ friends I will always pick the well developed INTP, INTJ. It isn't that I don't enjoy being with my ISFJ friends it is just that they can tend to drain me eventually and I just find the company of the INTP or INTJ so much more rewarding on a deeper level. This has actually led to conflict before with the ISFJ friends where they always villify me.

2. Try living with/working with an SFJ for an extended period of time. My roommate of 2 years and my boss last summer were both ISFJ. The rooming situation and friendship was great for a year and a half...then as we both became more confident in our personalities and more mature we started having more and more conflicts. Now we're about to graduate and, at the end of 2 years, I seriously need time away from her. Also, my job started out great and, as the summer progressed and we had to work more and more together, my boss and I kept coming into more and more conflicts. She couldn't give me space to work. I didn't ever do things the way she wanted, even though I often did them better.

= You can have good friendships with someone of any type. I think it is merely that certain characteristics can tend to wear relationships down over time while others strengthen them. I can still have great conversations with my ISFJ friends but the longer I spend around them the more I feel alienated and want to get away from them. The longer I spend around my INTP or INTJ friends the more time I want to spend with them. ESFJs however, do tend to send me running away at first sight.

 

[ashitaria]

The problem with your thesis Puffy is that you only know them as friends. Being friends with them does not mean that they are always like that. ESFJs always act wonderful in-front of friends, and many other forum members will agree, ESFJs can change from one mood to the next like a two-faced dipshit (where the F is the ESFJ thread when you need it? I need that F'ing quote from a member to prove this).

ESFJs are great as friends. Don't get me wrong, they are wonderful. I have an ESTJ friend and an ESFJ friend, and I get along with them just fine. But that's because they are just friends. That's because unlike family member or someone whom you are in a relationship with, you can leave whenever they're mood gets nasty. Go on. Hang out with one of them, and it will be as chaotic and emotional as a pile of screaming humans which you are about to bury alive (usually involving the crying over a lost game round )

They can be great conservationists (which is supposed to be natural, they do have a dominant Fe) , and yes, they do have a brain to understand politics and all that riff-raft, but more likely than not, they are dominant and usually reluctant to look at other people's point of view. They can be smart, yes, but they usually they will not stay smart for long and revert to their emotional side.

The ESFJ friend that I have can talk about job descriptions and things like that, economy, and history, but he never admits that he's wrong (I faintly remember telling him the difference between totalitarianism and communism ) and he will always exert that he's right, exaggerate the argument with insults ("communism is totalitarianism you dumb-ass ) and then say afterwords that he doesn't care.

Of course, older and more self-controlled ESFJs definitely does not show the same emotions, thus you are able to get along with them without no argument, but that's because of their need to be liked, of their need to be accepted. Hang out with one of them 24/7.... You get the idea.

You also have to get that there is a major difference between ISFJs and ESFJs. ISFJs don't feel the need the impose world views on other people as much as ESFJs. I have an ISFJ friend and I hardly ever get into an argument with her, but it's probably because I never hang out with her for more than 7 hours a week.

 

[BigApplePi]

Apologies ahead of time for a horribly long post. It seems to relate to this thread.

ESFJ? I am only a student of this "typology" as many of you are. I'm leaning toward myself being an INTP and see no strong reason why I am not -- even got Adymus once to support this. But I have yet to confirm for myself just how fixed this typology is and under what conditions it operates. I'm no conformist (unless you can trip me up) so I propose this, by coincidence I posed to Adymus just last nite. He may never see it (as it is rather buried) or bother to answer looking at the easygoing way I worded it, but I'm still curious: Re: Cognitive Functions 100:...

I'm assuming if an INTP has Ti Ne Si Fe priorities, ESFJ is just the reverse: Fe Si Ne Ti.

I propose I have a strong ESFJ quality, not part of the human social world. Here are some arguments:

Fe- I am very sociable with my three pets, a collie and two cats. I greet them most of the time and react back and forth with them. My expressed feelings are top priority.

Si - Play, food, petting plays strong part, is conscious and active.

Ne - I don't bother

Ti - I think only when I take them to the vet and reluctantly. I trained my previous collie but haven't bothered very much with this one. Only the necessary training. My primary attachment and behavior with them is emotional. They are companions.

Now my behavior before I got each pet was very INTPish. I thought a great deal about what I wanted (Ti), felt pets were a good idea (Ne), didn't do any formal test selections (Si) and felt nothing toward animals not mine (Fe).

So doesn't this say something a little special about CF theory?

__________________________

Since I'm compelled to puzzle about this situation and anticipate what Adymus might say, I have to speculate -- if only to discover later how wrong I might be.

Certainly behavior with pets is different from with humans though I don't know why. One could say my behavior with pets is very introverted, for though my wife (an introvert also) shares a lot of my behavior, my interactions with my pets are my own. (My behavior is to compensate for missing Si in the human world I assume.) Still it doesn't appear to be Ti at all. It's Si. It's Fe weak on the human side but strong on the animal side. So am I right about ESFJ operating here?

 

[Sparrow]

Why does ashitaria hate ESFJs...Ashitaria doesn't have an ESFJ parent.

 

[ashitaria]

Why does ashitaria hate ESFJs...Ashitaria doesn't have an ESFJ parent.

I have an ISFJ and an ESFJ parent though, and so far I can say that it sucks ass.

ISFJs generally don't exert as much as ESFJs do, but they usually have the same values. And the fact that she's my mom makes her very inclined to act like a maniacal ESFJ around me and I didn't know she was ISFJ until she took the test. Also, comparing her behavior to the behavior of other ESFJs described in this forum (yes Anamalech, even yours) she is very very similar.

Having an ESTJ dad works too.

 

[Dormouse]

As an ESFJ in training I am highly insulted by this thread.

Spoiler

Okay, honestly... I really like ESFJs, find them easy to get along with and all that riff-raff. The ones I know are fairly young, sure, but they generally make an effort to get to know me and understand my point of view. Though I guess I do my part by avoiding conflictual situations in general.

Anyways, even though we don't 'get' each other, I respect them and a fair few have dazzled me with their not-so-apparent-when-you-first-meet-them intelligence. It's actually quite nice, they don't flaunt their knowledge like many Ns are prone to doing.

So I essentially have no problem with SFs and the like.

I probably shouldn't be commenting since I don't actually know my type.

 

[ashitaria]

As an ESFJ in training I am highly insulted by this thread.

Spoiler

Okay, honestly... I really like ESFJs, find them easy to get along with and all that riff-raff. The ones I know are fairly young, sure, but they generally make an effort to get to know me and understand my point of view. Though I guess I do my part by avoiding conflictual situations in general.

Anyways, even though we don't 'get' each other, I respect them and a fair few have dazzled me with their not-so-apparent-when-you-first-meet-them intelligence. It's actually quite nice, they don't flaunt their knowledge like many Ns are prone to doing.

So I essentially have no problem with SFs and the like.

I probably shouldn't be commenting since I don't actually know my type.

I'm sorry.

But for the ESFJs who actually try though...perhaps that's a different story. All the ESFJs I've met so far have never tried to "get" me, but try as hard as they can to condemn me.

I've met 8 ESFJs so far, it has not been a pleasant experience. But that's probably because the only adult ESFJ I truly know is my mom and the other ESFJs are in high school.

 

[Puffy]

80% of your Christian group SFs, no surprise there.

80% of those tested [which is about 10], but fair point as far as I can tell most Christians I've met have been F's

Ashitaria: I live with two of these ESFJ's I'm around them on quite a frequent basis.. And yes I've seen their emotional sides but what's wrong with emotion? It doesn't make you stupid needless to say; I feel some INT's need to come down from the pedestal every now and again.

Also most J's won't admit they're wrong if they're not very mature, INTJ's are some of the worst I've met at this [including myself from time to time].

But good point I'm likely closer with my ISFJ friend than my ESFJ friends.

BAP: Strangely, I think you're an INTP

 

[Dormouse]

I'm sorry.

But for the ESFJs who actually try though...perhaps that's a different story. All the ESFJs I've met so far have never tried to "get" me, but try as hard as they can to condemn me.

I've met 8 ESFJs so far, it has not been a pleasant experience. But that's probably because the only adult ESFJ I truly know is my mom and the other ESFJs are in high school.

Hmm, the ESFJs I've known are in high school, too, though the ones I've really gotten to know were a couple of grades younger, through a sporting thing.

I'd attribute our harmony to the following facts:

1. Small team, forced socialization with 'em

2. I was the oldest, apparently that's a license to be weird.

3. If I needed time off I could just walk out.

4. If they needed comforting or a shoulder to cry on or a sympathetic ear of their own age they had each other.

5. If they needed a voice of reason or a dose of common sense they could come to me.

6. I always carried random puzzle-game things around, and every now and then we'd all stop and try to solve them.

So, this proves... Absolutely nothing. But I suppose it's a pretty good example of an environment conducive to creating a successful relationship between Is and ESFJs. I always had my own space, and my wandering off didn't phase 'em as they were a unit.

Of course, this ended up with there being some distance between the two of them and me, but nothing that devolved into cliquish hatred or contempt.

 

[ashitaria]

80% of those tested [which is about 10], but fair point as far as I can tell most Christians I've met have been F's

Ashitaria: I live with two of these ESFJ's I'm around them on quite a frequent basis.. And yes I've seen their emotional sides but what's wrong with emotion? It doesn't make you stupid needless to say; I feel some INT's need to come down from the pedestal every now and again.

Also most J's won't admit they're wrong if they're not very mature, INTJ's are some of the worst I've met at this [including myself from time to time].

But good point I'm likely closer with my ISFJ friend than my ESFJ friends.

BAP: Strangely, I think you're an INTP

Due to my bad experience with emotions...

Does punching in the face, shouting, throwing stuff, smacking, hitting, threats and tantrums count?

 

[Puffy]

I'm sorry you've had a particularly bad experience from an individual but I don't think every emotional person I've ever met has punched me in the face, shouted at me, then proceeded to throw a chair at me, smack me around for a bit, go on to hit me on the floor, decide this moment is best to threaten me and then storm off in a tantrum.

 

[ashitaria]

I'm sorry you've had a particularly bad experience from an individual but I don't think every emotional person I've ever met has punched me in the face, shouted at me, then proceeded to throw a chair at me, smack me around for a bit, go on to hit me on the floor, decide this moment is best to threaten me and then storm off in a tantrum.

You are so lucky you don't have an XSFJ mom.

Though ESFJs would probably act the same way except non-physical.

 

[Puffy]

Wow really it's that bad? I feel your pain, though I'm surprised an ISFJ would do that, I thought they were meant to be nurterer's?

 

[ashitaria]

Wow really it's that bad? I feel your pain, though I'm surprised an ISFJ would do that, I thought they were meant to be nurterer's?

You forget that I'm Asian.

Asian + XSFJ = Complete bullcrap.

 

[Adymus]

Not that I am encouraging the ESFJ hate fest.

But I highly, highly doubt all, or even any of the people you mentioned in the OP have been typed accurately.

 

[ashitaria]

Not that I am encouraging the ESFJ hate fest.

But I highly, highly doubt all, or even any of the people you mentioned in the OP have been typed accurately.

Even after surveying what they put in an MBTI test? Even when I'm examining what cognitive functions they use and what characteristics they have in conjunction to their cognitive functions?

 

[Starfruit M.E.]

My mom and I get along pretty well and she's an ESFJ. Sometimes she tries to get too involved or thinks I should tell her more, but she's slowly learning. The problem is more that I don't understand her.

I greatly dislike it when she doesn't make any logical sense in her arguments or beliefs, or when she keeps trying to get people to appreciate her or feel bad for her. I'd appreciate her more if she'd stop complaining! She also stares at me sometimes, just smiling, and it drives me crazy. And then there are the hugs and such. Ar her worst, it's like she treats me like an ignorant kid who doesn't love on their mama enough. And to me that can be a nightmare. (I'm an intellectual INTP, and I'm a bit sensory defensive. Last thing I want is to be treated like a stupid kid and then be suffocated in hugs and kisses).

On the bright side, she keeps a schedule better than I do, and she's pretty good to talk to as long as I make it clear for her just to listen or if I don't mind a bit of advice repeated a few times at the end. She's helped me build my recipe book, and we like watching the same TV shows and shopping together. At times she's also been supportive when I really needed it, and overall I am glad to have had her as a mother.

And now I have an 8 year old baby brother ESFP and he's happy to fit that spot she keeps trying to fill with my ISTJ brother and me. So it all worked out in the end.

 

[Adymus]

Even after surveying what they put in an MBTI test? Even when I'm examining what cognitive functions they use and what characteristics they have in conjunction to their cognitive functions?

1. You are not puffy.

2. Exactly how competent are you in examining cognitive function use in people?
Or even knowing how people use their cognitive function in general for that matter?

 

[Sparrow]

Even after surveying what they put in an MBTI test? Even when I'm examining what cognitive functions they use and what characteristics they have in conjunction to their cognitive functions?

You are waaaay too sure of yourself. Are you sure you're INTP? Do you have any doubts? Your self-assurance is bordering on arrogance :P

Or you just hate everyone, the world and all who have wronged you. INFJ!

 

[BigApplePi]

Adymus are you speculating that those who are referring to ESFJs might be referring to people who are relating to them with lower functions and therefore are not ESFJs?

"And Adymus is a pretty cool guy, he fights monsters and aliens and DOESN"T AFRAID OF ANYTHING."
Are your services available for fighting such entities? I have on occasion had the need.

 

[ashitaria]

1. You are not puffy.

2. Exactly how competent are you in examining cognitive function use in people?
Or even knowing how people use their cognitive function in general for that matter?

1) I do not get what you are trying to prove by this. That I do not know what Puffy's friends are like or what? And your statements were pretty much directed at everyone.

2) I can say so-so. As for knowing how other people use their cognitive functions, I have to say that I at least have a competent grasp on it.

 

[Adymus]

Adymus are you speculating that those who are referring to ESFJs might be referring to people who are relating to them with lower functions and therefore are not ESFJs?

That is possible, but not even necessarily that.


I have noticed a strange phenomenon where christian intuitives type as sensors (Which is why we now have a stereotype that christian = SF). Sometimes they are NFPs modulating heavily on their Si, and other than that, there must be something about their lifestyle that is making them answer the questions in favor of sensing traits.

I mean, the ISFJ friend who had a 40,000 email long discussion about philosophy AND does dream interpretation? Yeah dude, that sounds to me like you have a mistyped INFJ friend. Maybe even INFP, I've noticed religion accentuates their Si. It is not that Sensors are not capable of this kind of thing, but we are talking about people who are being stimulated by abstract conversation, and can even stimulate another intuitive (puffy) with theirs, it is far more likely that we have intuitives on our hands.

 

[ashitaria]

You are waaaay too sure of yourself. Are you sure you're INTP? Do you have any doubts? Your self-assurance is bordering on arrogance :P

Or you just hate everyone, the world and all who have wronged you. INFJ!

No, I'm not even sure whether I am an INTP, or an ENTP, or an INTJ, because I have traits of all three.

But tests and analysis can at least provide a small stronghold of truth on someone's personality, especially when you have been with them with almost every year of your life. My mom's behavior without doubt (notice the pun here) fit the ESFJ's profile (further supported by Adymus' proposal of MBTI only measuring the first two functions) and that combined with the ESFJ thread....

And don't worry, I hate everyone equally.

 

[Sparrow]

No, I'm not even sure whether I am an INTP.

But tests and analysis can at least provide a small stronghold of truth on someone's personality, especially when you have been with them with almost every year of your life.

And don't worry, I hate everyone equally.

I hate everyone as well. ^5 - High Five.

 

[Adymus]

1) I do not get what you are trying to prove by this. That I do not know what Puffy's friends are like or what? And your statements were pretty much directed at everyone.

No, this is Puffy's thread, they were directed at Puffy.

2) I can say so-so. As for knowing how other people use their cognitive functions, I have to say that I at least have a competent grasp on it.

Okay that's a No.

 

[ashitaria]

No, this is Puffy's thread, they were directed at Puffy.

Ah, I see.

Okay that's a No.

All I can say is, I know someone is using their Fe when they are trying to get a person excluded from a group into one, when one says hi or does small talk, when one tries to comfort someone or be nice to someone..

My mom is an example of this. On the phone, she smiles, laughs and makes small talk right before getting off the phone to scream at me. Another example: shaking hands with someone and having a nice long talk with her and talking dirty about her right after. Okay, maybe the latter wasn't really an example of Fe, but it probably did have a element of truth to it.

 

[fullerene]

The thing SJs have in common is that Si somewhere in their top two functions.... they're sort of like sponges that soak up their environment, and then harden into rocks to defend it and project those experiences into the world around them. If you typically hate the culture which surrounds your SFJ, you're probably going to hate them as well. ISFJs are harder to change their mind, but generally less intrusive when projecting into the outside world (Si, then Te). ESFJs are more flexible, but quicker and more vocal about their judgments, so they're more visibly close-minded. Since you're a christian and you like that value-set, those SFJs (tho I agree with Adyums, that I highly doubt they were all typed correctly. Long conversations about dream interpretation and philosophy sound a whole heck of a lot like an INFJ) won't bug you too much.

I had a mennonite friend back in HS who was some sort of SFJ... she tested as ESFJ by a tiny margin, but also had social anxiety disorder, so she was a little weird... but the SFJ was still fairly clear. When I would run theology or other life situations by her to see what she thought, she would even say things like "yeah.... yeah, I've heard of [that belief] before" or "i was never taught that thing was wrong for any reason," or things like that.

But you know what? Her dad was a probably-INTJ who worked and raised the kids mostly by himself (mom had some mental problems and was bedridden often), and everything he taught her wars pretty damn good advice. And besides that, she's still one of the top 5 or so nicest people I've ever known. She's the oldest of 6 or 7 kids (honestly when it gets to that many I lose track and can't remember them), and the family was sort of built with the structure of oldest siblings help the younger ones while they can. Awesome values in --> awesome SJ out. I think the reason INTPs tend to hate SJs is just because they're 1. your parents and you're too young to know any others/resent the authority, or 2. can't find anything to appreciate about the culture, so you hate them because they reflect it.

I've known a fair share of ESFJs who I've strongly disliked too... but in general they're really not that bad (sorry... aside from that one maybe-ISFJ, I've never known any). Don't be a dick and they're likely friendly and inclusive. If they're not friendly then it's better you learned sooner rather than later, because they're probably not changing.

 

[Puffy]

I can get my ISFJ friend to re-type but I still strongly believe he will come out ISFJ, he probably already has lol he tends to read my posts on this forum.

That's interesting what you say about Christians often accentuating their Si when they are intuitives I've noticed that in myself a bit actually. I think like 3/10 of those typed were intuitives, will require further study

While I accept my ISFJ friend may not be an ISFJ I'm pretty sure most of the others are ESFJ but ofc I could see if they wanted to re-test as well.

 

[Puffy]

My ISFJ friend re-typed and came out as INFP! I think you may be right at least Adymus that he is an intuitive. The two ESFJ's are definitely ESFJ though, but you do make me raise doubts about the typing of some in my hallgroup, thanks for the insights.

 

[Adymus]

Called it!