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Apparently MBTI has been "dismantled" by the pod'lair team

Fukyo

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How curious.

Are you aware we've been through this before? As in, a whole lot of threads about Pod'lair...

Are you one of their peddlers, by any chance?
 
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How curious.

Are you aware we've been through this before? As in, a whole lot of threads about Pod'lair...

Are you one of their peddlers, by any chance?

I am aware. I figured this community would find it amusing. ;)

He's apparently going to "compare" to "prove" which typology comes out on top.
 

Fukyo

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I am aware.

Yet you apparently choose to litter the community with more of it, great.


He's apparently going to "compare" to "prove" which typology comes out on top.

'Apparently' not needed; he's been doing it since what, 2010? I wager this thread is some kind of provocation, aint?

I gotta say you're not doing a very good job of hiding your motivation here, helpful stranger. :)
 

Moocow

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Pod'lair is like the north korea of typology at this point.
 

Cognisant

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Most of us are already well aware MBTI has almost no scientific basis whatsoever.

That's not to say it dosen't work.
About as well as any half decent "what type of <theme> are you" test on okcupid.
 
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Yet you apparently choose to litter the community with more of it, great.




'Apparently' not needed; he's been doing it since what, 2010? I wager this thread is some kind of provocation, aint?

I gotta say you're not doing a very good job of hiding your motivation here, helpful stranger. :)

Actually, I was being sarcastic; I support the MBTI, not pod'lair.

I'm sorry that his criticisms of jung's work are less constructive than that of ENTJ+INTP relationships; but in any case, it is just one silly thread.
:elephant:
 

EyeSeeCold

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FlMHo.gif
 

Architect

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What ever happened to PL? Last I followed the story, they were trying to make a case for their approach, but people were naturally skeptical since you couldn't learn about it until you were inducted into the circle. Then it seemed to go through some kind of blow up, or witch hunt, about the time that I stopped paying attention.

Are they still quietly figuring out how they'll take over the world?
 
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:^^:

What ever happened to PL? Last I followed the story, they were trying to make a case for their approach, but people were naturally skeptical since you couldn't learn about it until you were inducted into the circle. Then it seemed to go through some kind of blow up, or witch hunt, about the time that I stopped paying attention.

Are they still quietly figuring out how they'll take over the world?

Well they already have thousands of people and celebrities typed, apparently. Now all they need is a pool of people who're willing to read this garbage for more than a couple of minutes.
 

Auburn

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I have to say, that was an exceptionally well constructed video.
Quite excellent mastery of Fe from a Ti lead type...

And since I suspect you're (Adymus) probably lurking here, I'll have to accept your challenge now. I should have a video (or several) up in the next few days. Have actually been planning them for weeks already.
 

Architect

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Well they already have thousands of people and celebrities typed, apparently. Now all they need is a pool of people who're willing to read this garbage for more than a couple of minutes.

My impression was they have an excellent and precise theory. The problem is immaturity, the founder thought of himself as some kind of genius (Peur thinking), and they kept the whole thing under wraps because of - the horrors - people might misinterpret it (more Puer). Of course the best procedure would have been to release it and let it stand on its own.

And they had a bunch of stupid names and graphics.
 

snafupants

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The well-fed huckster needs to at once bolster his own product (e.g., Pod'Lair) and despoil the competition, especially if the latter is free (e.g., MBTI) for most applications. Suppose I wanted to make you pay for porn, I would need to disabuse you of the merits of free porn while convincing you of the eminence of my pay-for-porn service. But then again: everything is energy evolving! You know you're dealing with a slogan dealing shyster when the phrase could simultaneously mean everything and nothing - but hey, you can have it your way. Perhaps the empire of enlightenment should start with the practitioner? :D

That fusillade of music at the beginning was pretty intense. :slashnew:
 
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I have to say, that was an exceptionally well constructed video.
Quite excellent mastery of Fe from a Ti lead type...

And since I suspect you're (Adymus) probably lurking here, I'll have to accept your challenge now. I should have a video (or several) up in the next few days. Have actually been planning them for weeks already.

I wish I could call myself Adymus, nor do I support his little "Empire of Enlightenment". Either way, that would be interesting to see. Good luck.
 

Da Blob

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Ho Hum, humans are individuals and until there is a system devised that can predict the actions of a given individual, all of these psychological classifications are really just amusing speculations when it to comes to 'defining' others, objectively.

The value of the MBTI and other instruments is in its subjective value, which can be quite significant, as perhaps Jung intended.
 

crippli

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My impression was they have an excellent and precise theory.
I seem to have read several times that they have written around here that they posses a theory like you describe.

If the paper is published at some time, I may look through it.

In this video, the main criticism of MBTI seems to be self analysis. I find this strange, as self analyses inspires towards introversion, something that can be educational, especially if one is not familiar with this method of acquiring answers. Like in university, often what one learn is outdated, or perhaps, even false. But that isn't so important. The important part, and what one learn(on good and bad) is a way to think.

Pl seems to not have understood this aspect of MBTI, on why MBTI somewhat works, and at least is interesting.
 

Teohrn

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Essentially they rely on stereotypes in the exact same manner that they claim that Jungian typology does. The critique is simply misinformed exposition of the target.

And as far as evidence goes, at least as far as I know, the introvert-extrovert scale has been scientifically proven. Introverts and extroverts react differently to stimuli, something which has been proven by brain scanning. So there is an inherent biological characteristic in the brains of introverts and extroverts. I don't know if they have tested this out with the other Jungian functions, which would also be much more difficult, but my intuitive guess is that this biological wiring does exist beyond the introvert-extrovert scale. All of it might be based in the reward systems, which is basically why some functions energize you while others drain you.

To be completely honest, I have just recently heard of Pod'Lair. It seems like typology enshrined in mysticism and obscure jargon. It also seems like it is intrinsically a movement encompassing more than typology exclusively, it seeks to gain followers. Hence the rather rhetorical propaganda against other competing ideas. Seemingly, there are quite conspicuous incentives behind this. It is like a cult of typology. I do however not know much about it, so I am just stating what it strikes me as being. Could anyone illuminate me on this? Is there anything more to it? Am I wrong? And so forth.
 

snafupants

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Essentially they rely on stereotypes in the exact same manner that they claim that Jungian typology does. The critique is simply misinformed exposition of the target.

And as far as evidence goes, at least as far as I know, the introvert-extrovert scale has been scientifically proven. Introverts and extroverts react differently to stimuli, something which has been proven by brain scanning. So there is an inherent biological characteristic in the brains of introverts and extroverts. I don't know if they have tested this out with the other Jungian functions, which would also be much more difficult, but my intuitive guess is that this biological wiring does exist beyond the introvert-extrovert scale. All of it might be based in the reward systems, which is basically why some functions energize you will others drain you.

To be completely honest, I have just recently heard of Pod'Lair. It seems like typology enshrined in mysticism and obscure jargon. It also seems like it is intrinsically a movement encompassing more than typology exclusively, it seeks to gain followers. Hence the rather rhetorical propaganda against other competing ideas. Seemingly, there are quite conspicuous incentives behind this. It is like a cult of typology. I do however not know much about it, so I am just stating what it strikes me as being. Could anyone illuminate me on this? Is there anything more to it? Am I wrong? And so forth.

In a nutshell, that's the tacit pith and selling point. Nice job. :borg:
 

Jennywocky

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Essentially they rely on stereotypes in the exact same manner that they claim that Jungian typology does. The critique is simply misinformed exposition of the target.

And as far as evidence goes, at least as far as I know, the introvert-extrovert scale has been scientifically proven. Introverts and extroverts react differently to stimuli, something which has been proven by brain scanning. So there is an inherent biological characteristic in the brains of introverts and extroverts. I don't know if they have tested this out with the other Jungian functions, which would also be much more difficult, but my intuitive guess is that this biological wiring does exist beyond the introvert-extrovert scale. All of it might be based in the reward systems, which is basically why some functions energize you will others drain you.

To be completely honest, I have just recently heard of Pod'Lair. It seems like typology enshrined in mysticism and obscure jargon. It also seems like it is intrinsically a movement encompassing more than typology exclusively, it seeks to gain followers. Hence the rather rhetorical propaganda against other competing ideas. Seemingly, there are quite conspicuous incentives behind this. It is like a cult of typology. I do however not know much about it, so I am just stating what it strikes me as being. Could anyone illuminate me on this? Is there anything more to it? Am I wrong? And so forth.

Actually i find myself in agreement with the things you've said...including the podlair stuff, which i was here for part of. Good calls all around, on your part.
 

Latte

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If the cognitive understanding models of Pod'Lair don't have a firm and cautious basis in neuropsychology, it should fall into several of the traps Adymus correctly points out MBTI have fallen into.

Looking past the silly names, the vague contours provided of Pod'Lair seems like a more detailed system with better applications for introspection, but as to it not suffering from faults of assumption... it seems highly unlikely.

Looking through some youtube videos on Pod'Lair now, it seems like a philosophy of how one should ideally create and manage understandings. How to create conceptual frameworks and be open to changing them.... but it does seem that some conceptual structures on a lower level than "how to ideally create and manage understandings" are held to be somewhat "true/solid".

I am worried about the cult potential in this. Especially after noticing the considerable ego displayed by Adymus, apparent in his voice, way of wording himself and the tone of his laughter at times. There is also a common theme of quite manipulative choice of music in this video and other videos, chosen specifically to inspire the feeling of beholding something very profoundly eye opening.

Then again, it seems likely the Pod'Lair system will tidy up many people's minds considerably in a way less truth obfuscating than their prior conceptual frameworks or the vast majority of competing conceptual frameworks.
 

Anarkandi

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Could anyone illuminati me on this?

c what i did thar

I really hope it's not Pod'lair which manages to bring typology into the realm of science, there is a great deal of cult potential in this project, but there are actually two important things they are doing.

- They are reading type by body mannerism, and they've done so quite extensively, with a great deal of samples, and they believe they have found coherent systems in this. That is an interesting way of gathering empirical evidence, as body language exists outside the realm of self perception and is somethign we can measure objectively, if it works.

- They are actually doing a good job of seeing how type really works, and it's really interesting to follow all projects working on this, for example Davesuperpowers "iNtuitive time" and similar.

Looking forward to Auburns videos. Hope they can be interesting. ;)
 

Anarkandi

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Btw, it's so obvious that the guy who posted this is a Podlair peddler that it makes me laugh. There he is, being all innocent. "I just happened to find this video and it's interesting .. but I don't agree with it.. but they are doing this..." yeah, yeah, yeah. Coincidences, huh. I read up on Pod'lairs page, apparently most people on intpforum.com are INFJ's in disguise who don't see it themselves, btw. And most people here are too "stuck up" to accept it. I'd say there is quite a degree of arrogance in the Pod'lair project. Perhaps their model is correct, but they have given us no reason or evidence to support their claims, just a "secret" reading system that you can only learn if you get initiated into their circle. I mean c'mon. Do you expect people to buy your shit if you can't give them the actual evidence?
 

EyeSeeCold

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Do you expect people to buy your shit if you can't give them the actual evidence?

Yes, yes they do. And it's exactly those people who are the target audience. :slashnew:
 

Architect

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In this video, the main criticism of MBTI seems to be self analysis.

As far as I can tell PL relies on group or expert identification. Hence the cult status.

AH, I see now, PL is coming out of the closet. Going to their site they finally realized that they would get nowhere with the previous approach and so they just need to put it out. And now you have to pay $35 for a reading. Well I'll dig around, if I can put up with the goofy terms and self congratulation.

And Adymus it's Yungian, not Youngian! Yung, not Young. Driving me crazy.

EDIT: OK to be fair the theory isn't easy to explain or understand. I'll have to spend some time digging through their material.

And guys, you need to learn how to distill this into something simpler, and it doesn't help when you start with
One of the first tasks of Mojo Dojo is to inform everyone how much ignorance and stupidity is out there.
 

Fukyo

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As a mod, I have this to say to any Pod'lair peddlers coming to this site.


Pod'lair can be discussed as long as it's done respectfully and honestly. You will have to show some respect to this community, its members and keep your egos and righteousness in check. Don't forget that you're not on your own turf here. If you assert anything you will have to prove it openly here, invites in the lieu of "come to our site if you want to know" will not be tolerated. You can't come here to proselytize, advertise and stir up shit whenever the fancy strikes. If you don't like these terms I suggest you open your own boards to 'common folk' of the internet.

Forceful advancement of your agenda, spawning multiple threads about Pod'lair, recruiting initiates, or any general disruptiveness will not be allowed on this board.
 
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Btw, it's so obvious that the guy who posted this is a Podlair peddler that it makes me laugh. There he is, being all innocent. "I just happened to find this video and it's interesting .. but I don't agree with it.. but they are doing this..." yeah, yeah, yeah. Coincidences, huh. I read up on Pod'lairs page, apparently most people on intpforum.com are INFJ's in disguise who don't see it themselves, btw. And most people here are too "stuck up" to accept it. I'd say there is quite a degree of arrogance in the Pod'lair project. Perhaps their model is correct, but they have given us no reason or evidence to support their claims, just a "secret" reading system that you can only learn if you get initiated into their circle. I mean c'mon. Do you expect people to buy your shit if you can't give them the actual evidence?

The video is about MBTI. It's such a wonder that I'd come across it! How irrlevent this video about MBTI is!

:elephant:

And no, it isn't my problem should you decide to fall for a 35$ scam.
 

Jennywocky

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Great. Now some Pod'lair nutjob (with the username "Pod'Lair"... oh how original!) is infecting TypologyCentral with this crap.... in a thread YOU created there that duplicates THIS thread.

Thanks for spreading the virus... I mean, magic. *eyeroll*
 

Hadoblado

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I don't see impact calculus as a pod'lairian, am I being naive? You guys seem pretty damn convinced.
 
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Great. Now some Pod'lair nutjob (with the username "Pod'Lair"... oh how original!) is infecting TypologyCentral with this crap.... in a thread YOU created there that duplicates THIS thread.

Thanks for spreading the virus... I mean, magic. *eyeroll*


I'm not responsible for some pod'lair nutjob scamming you for $35.
 

Jennywocky

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I don't see impact calculus as a pod'lairian, am I being naive? You guys seem pretty damn convinced.

I didn't see it either, here. Just irked he's the guy who said Beetlejuice three times for no really good reason and now they're infected too.

...and no, ic, was THAT my complaint with you? Who cares how people spend their money? It was partly a joke, partly annoyance you apparently were cross-pollinating forums with that thread, and you weren't even that invested in it
 

Architect

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Back to OP, while PL is possibly a better theory in some respects, it isn't in one; simplicity. PL ideas, at least as presented on their website are horribly complicated. I spent some time trying to understand it from there, and either it isn't being explained well or it's a difficult framework. Regardless I don't have the time right now to throw myself into it and master it in a few days or weeks.

MBTIs main deficiency is when people over rely on the straight letters, which leads to confusion and lack of precision. Once you get into the functions however it improves considerably. Watch the YouTube videos by 'DaveSuperPowers' I've posted elsewhere on this site.

Now suppose PL is a better more comprehensive theory, that certainly doesn't make MBTI suddenly untrue or worthless. Imagine that PL is the General Relativity of the Newtonian Gravity MBTI (I'm not saying it is, but just for sake of example). When GR came around NG was still just as true, and in the limit GR had to reduce to NG, which it did. To this day most people use NG for calculations involving gravity, because GR is far too complicated for most needs.

So I'm saying another juvenile mistake the PLarians make is to put down MBTI as much as they do. MBTI works, is available, is apparently simpler than PL, has broad acceptance, and certainly is what PL built upon. For PL to become accepted it needs to show how its explanations are better/more comprehensive, find a way to be presently more clearly, and to file down the odd terminology and obnoxious tone.

If the cognitive understanding models of Pod'Lair don't have a firm and cautious basis in neuropsychology, it should fall into several of the traps Adymus correctly points out MBTI have fallen into. ...

@Latte, well said
 

Jennywocky

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Back to OP, while PL is possibly a better theory in some respects, it isn't in one; simplicity. PL ideas, at least as presented on their website are horribly complicated. I spent some time trying to understand it from there, and either it isn't being explained well or it's a difficult framework. Regardless I don't have the time right now to throw myself into it and master it in a few days or weeks.

I spent a few minutes last night just trying to read one of their function pages. It seemed to revel in complicating the terminology rather than simplifying it. To me, that's not a great sign; as a former tech writer and someone who still writes technical documentation, the goal in communication is to convey ideas as simply (while as accurately) as possible so that people can understand. The language seemed to almost be a purposeful barrier to select for particular types of people and exclude others, in terms of using confusing/ambiguous syntax.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I didn't see it either, here. Just irked he's the guy who said Beetlejuice three times for no really good reason and now they're infected too.

...and no, ic, was THAT my complaint with you? Who cares how people spend their money? It was partly a joke, partly annoyance you apparently were cross-pollinating forums with that thread, and you weren't even that invested in it
Nice metaphors. :p

I spent a few minutes last night just trying to read one of their function pages. It seemed to revel in complicating the terminology rather than simplifying it. To me, that's not a great sign; as a former tech writer and someone who still writes technical documentation, the goal in communication is to convey ideas as simply (while as accurately) as possible so that people can understand. The language seemed to almost be a purposeful barrier to select for particular types of people and exclude others, in terms of using confusing/ambiguous syntax.
Besides the obvious use of trying to dissociate it from MBTI, to understand the confusing and complex terminology you have to get immersed in the culture, so I think it's part of the whole brainwashing / conversion / conditioning process. Complex terminology is not inherently a bad thing, but within the context of what Pod'lair has shown itself to be, it's a whole different story.
 

PhoenixRising

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Part of the podlair theory may be valid, however it looks like they've turned it into voodoo, like card reading and all that crap. Why do people get so into superstition? Let's stick to science please.

MBTI works well enough for most people, it's not exact of course.
 

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BigApplePi

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Originally Posted by Anarkandi
Do you expect people to buy your shit if you can't give them the actual evidence?
Yes, yes they do. And it's exactly those people who are the target audience. :slashnew:
LOL. Anyway, experience is the evidence, but I laughed out loud when I read that.
 

BigApplePi

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As a mod, I have this to say to any Pod'lair peddlers coming to this site.


Pod'lair can be discussed as long as it's done respectfully and honestly. You will have to show some respect to this community, its members and keep your egos and righteousness in check. Don't forget that you're not on your own turf here. If you assert anything you will have to prove it openly here, invites in the lieu of "come to our site if you want to know" will not be tolerated. You can't come here to proselytize, advertise and stir up shit whenever the fancy strikes. If you don't like these terms I suggest you open your own boards to 'common folk' of the internet.

Forceful advancement of your agenda, spawning multiple threads about Pod'lair, recruiting initiates, or any general disruptiveness will not be allowed on this board.
Fukyo you have stated forcefully and clearly something I feel. This is the INTP Forum which has an identity and life its own and deserves respect. There is nothing wrong with saying something has value (Pod'Lair). If it has value, then this Forum deserves that such value be communicated or presented or explained directly as such. State your case here. If you present strange music, explain why it's like that. If you use strange language, explain why you use that, but allow for objections.

I'm in conflict about giving links. Links tend to "throw the kitchen sink" at one displaying too much irrelevancy, failing to talk directly in argument. Links are okay for broad information but are one-way. Links are off-site and almost say, "I can't talk to you here. Come over to my place. I won't be your guest."
 

Jennywocky

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Links are okay for broad information but are one-way. Links are off-site and almost say, "I can't talk to you here. Come over to my place. I won't be your guest."

Good point. And I think that's what's basically going on here. There's a real lack of desire to be a part of this community, it's far more about wanting to drag people over to theirs.
 

Auburn

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Err... not that I don't like how this thread has become a conversation about cyber-culture and inter-forum etiquette , rather than the actual OP, :P but perhaps I can bring the conversation back around.

Now I'm neither for nor against Podlair, but I agree with pretty much everything Adymus said about present typology - and I think that his criticism is really just being circumvented in this thread.

If this community has totally lost the will to debate the legitimacy of the concept their forum revolves around, then all that remains here-on is returning to vomit. The same cycle of reinforced misconceptions because nobody is concerned enough to actually confront these issues.

All the hundreds of typology topics that will follow now (and so long as this is ignored) will be a total and utter waste of time. Of Life. Just as it has been for decades. Before another "INTP" thread is opened, it should be priority to unearth the reality of this - take it to it's extreme and debate it to the death. Anything else is regress.

I agree with Adymus that no substantial progress has been made in the past 90 years, and I find it sad also. It's not really all that difficult to formulate some more empirical studies to test these things.


This is what this thread looks like to me:
"Apparently MBTI has been dismantled, but we're just going to sit here anyways and ignore the critique because it's some crazies that are saying it and it doesn't matter what the crazies say, they're crazy."

"Plus I don't even really care about MBTI and haven't for ages, so I don't care if it was dismantled, I'm just here for the free cookies, and amusing, vague stereotypes (even tho I know they're not real) that are like the glue and common meme that binds this forum together and gives a reason to talk."
That doesn't have to be what happens. We can, and ought to, advance forward. Make progress and new discoveries.
 

Jennywocky

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This is what this thread looks like to me:
"Apparently MBTI has been dismantled, but we're just going to sit here anyways and ignore the critique because it's some crazies that are saying it and it doesn't matter what the crazies say, they're crazy."

"Plus I don't even really care about MBTI and haven't for ages, so I don't care if it was dismantled, I'm just here for the free cookies, and amusing, vague stereotypes (even tho I know they're not real) that are like the glue and common meme that binds this forum together and gives a reason to talk."


I'm not sure what the problem is with critiquing the MBTI (as it should be) without having to buy into what the crazies are saying. I know my reaction to this thread has been a reaction against the excesses and convolutions of Pod'lair and its adherents, but I certainly don't mind a tear-down of MBTI if and when deserved. As a system, it has its uses but also has its flaws. So have at it.​
 

Moocow

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At this point their critique is commonplace. The crazy is the only part that really stands out. They don't seem to grasp that non sequiturs won't persuade us.
 

Moocow

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Err... not that I don't like how this thread has become a conversation about cyber-culture and inter-forum etiquette , rather than the actual OP, :P but perhaps I can bring the conversation back around.

Now I'm neither for nor against Podlair, but I agree with pretty much everything Adymus said about present typology - and I think that his criticism is really just being circumvented in this thread.

If this community has totally lost the will to debate the legitimacy of the concept their forum revolves around, then all that remains here-on is returning to vomit. The same cycle of reinforced misconceptions because nobody is concerned enough to actually confront these issues.
This is a straw man. Many of us don't even carry the misconceptions of which we're repeatedly accused.
Secondly, this forum doesn't revolve around any concept beyond its title and the common ways many of us found it. I would appreciate it if poddy's stopped telling us what we think or believe.

What exactly do you mean by "confront"? We're mostly anonymous individuals and it makes no difference if we all agree upon the flaws or benefits of one system or another. From my own disposition and others I've known here, finding flaws in any system of thought is hardly our epidemic. Rather, pod'lair rides in on its high horse with silly, caricatured thinking, stereotyping its audience as an ignorant and flawed mass of zealots. They're ranting to themselves.

All the hundreds of typology topics that will follow now (and so long as this is ignored) will be a total and utter waste of time. Of Life. Just as it has been for decades. Before another "INTP" thread is opened, it should be priority to unearth the reality of this - take it to it's extreme and debate it to the death. Anything else is regress.

I agree with Adymus that no substantial progress has been made in the past 90 years, and I find it sad also. It's not really all that difficult to formulate some more empirical studies to test these things.

This is what this thread looks like to me:
"Apparently MBTI has been dismantled, but we're just going to sit here anyways and ignore the critique because it's some crazies that are saying it and it doesn't matter what the crazies say, they're crazy."

"Plus I don't even really care about MBTI and haven't for ages, so I don't care if it was dismantled, I'm just here for the free cookies, and amusing, vague stereotypes (even tho I know they're not real) that are like the glue and common meme that binds this forum together and gives a reason to talk."
That doesn't have to be what happens. We can, and ought to, advance forward. Make progress and new discoveries.

Why is this our job? Isn't it a little ironic to fight this sort of battle here, and accuse us of wasting our time?

I like your video by the way and I'll think about your methodology and reply to it later. The part about pod'lair however should probably be made into a separate video. I don't think anything pod'lair has said yet deserves (or will be swayed by) an effortful critique. If anything, it will only do your project a disservice by associating with something so offensively childish. I would like to know what your motivation is for associating at all, instead of simply taking on the subject matter with your own ideas and methods. Pod'lair is of no significance if they can't or won't do it properly.
 

Hadoblado

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@Auburn

Your approach seems very reasoned, I would be very interested in any findings that come about from this.
 

Auburn

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@Auburn

Your approach seems very reasoned, I would be very interested in any findings that come about from this.
Thanks :)

@Moocow "Many of us don't even carry the misconceptions of which we're repeatedly accused."

It's not that I am accusing you of carrying the misconceptions (or maybe you were referring to Adymus' video) but I'm saying it would be nice to make progress. Becoming aware of a problem is just the first step to fixing it.

Now I also realize that it is nobody's obligation to fix it, and by default nobody is at fault for not taking action toward it. But we at least should not reinforce it more, and I do think (as a Ti dom) it is wrong to spread more inaccuracies.

So the very premise of this forum is one which invites the re-invention of these misconceptions with each generation of members. It is a breeding ground for it, even if those who've been here long enough may have come out of it.

I realize this is a personal sentiment but it just saddens me to see this happening and just being ignored, and sitting in that ignorance. This is probably also a part of what Podlair feels: a subjective and personal distaste for wasted potential and for regress. Or perhaps, that is a byproduct of a personal and subjective passion for actualization, perfection and authenticity.

In any case, the reason I bother to communicate and accept the challenge of Podlair even despite how it may not be necessary since their reputation is already so low, is because I share a somewhat similar spirit.

I don't fully shut them out for the same reason I also didn't dismiss Lyra, despite reputation. I recognize parts of myself in them, so I speak to that part in them.

***

But don't worry. This was just a preview so I thought i'd be ok to touch on Podlair briefly. The full video and following series won't focus on them at all.
 

Anarkandi

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I like your video by the way and I'll think about your methodology and reply to it later. The part about pod'lair however should probably be made into a separate video. I don't think anything pod'lair has said yet deserves (or will be swayed by) an effortful critique. If anything, it will only do your project a disservice by associating with something so offensively childish. I would like to know what your motivation is for associating at all, instead of simply taking on the subject matter with your own ideas and methods. Pod'lair is of no significance if they can't or won't do it properly.

Hey Moocow, glad you liked the video! I'm Erik, also working with the Physiognomy/Modus project.

We've done quite some talking about this, and we have decided to adress them because we feel people should know that there are alternatives to Pod'lairs theories and that there are alternate routes. In all other aspects we will continue to work indepedently from them, as we do not look positively on their method of operating or interacting with the typology-interested community. We do not see ourselves gaining anything from further interactions, and will propably not concern ourselves with them anymore in further videos.

We however, will always look positively on people who are diving into typology to see what really lies in there, what we really can find, and what it can mean for our understanding of human behavior. We have sections on our board devoted to this kind of theories, as most people working on the Modus and Physiognomy project are interested in them.

As a Fe-dom, I look very positively on discussing and listening to and creating an open environment for everybody. I believe this will bring knowledge forward. It is saddening that Pod'Lair apparently does not stand for this. But - all the more reason for us to do it!
 

BigApplePi

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To Auburn or anyone interested. I have so many thoughts on this thread I can't stop to organize them. Auburn I played your vid and commend you for a fine job. It would seem you are acting in a professional manner. My interest is just me. I have no professional motives. I'm half-way through playing the Adymus vid and was taking notes to post. I hope to finish and post them but they are just personal reactions and not careful for any accuracy as this post is not either.

I did want to say a little about my personal attitude toward typology before I forget to post it. I see personality types as fuzzy (one of the six tools of understanding). There are types but it remains to find out their nature. Are they rigid and definite and definable as some would imply? Or are they non-existence because we are having trouble identifying what may not even be there? You or someone said something about no progress in 90 years. Not true. We have brain scans. Now that we have them, we can use them and attempt to categorize. This will provide plenty of work for the next few years I would think.

My personal opinion on types is yes we have characteristics where some are displayed with comfort and some with stress. The question is, are these characteristics there all the time or just most of the time? That is, are moods and behavioral attitudes enough to constitute a "type"? I think the answer is we are flexible people. They are there most of the time but not all the time. (Let brain scans work on this.) That is one reason why we have trouble identifying ourselves ... because we look for universals and find too many exceptions. The other main reason is fuzzy definitions. What is judgment versus perception? If elements of both are always present, we have to make some, as yet possibly undefined, decisions as to how we want to make it go one way and not the other.

Another thing I mentioned is to look for universals or at least systems where we can say, "I belong." That's a good reason for Pod'Lair to exist. Just as people change and mature to develop a unique identity for themselves, an identity which makes us different from everyone else, so do we tend to adhere to a group identity. I'm not ready to say why or if that is, but it seems to be a symptom of Pod'Lair versus MBTI versus whatever and whatever. My attitude is to pick the best from each, integrate all the differences and come up with something better ... but never to reject something just because that something grates on you.

Those are just some of my musings and if they have already been addressed and answered by those more knowledgeable, I apologize for wasting your time.
 

Auburn

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Heya @BigApplePi, :)

I did want to say a little about my personal attitude toward typology before I forget to post it. I see personality types as fuzzy (one of the six tools of understanding). There are types but it remains to find out their nature. Are they rigid and definite and definable as some would imply? Or are they non-existence because we are having trouble identifying what may not even be there?

Exactly; that is precisely the question that needs answering. And the next question that naturally follows is... "how can we develop a way to test for that?"

Consciousness is among, if not, the most difficult thing to measure. It would seem that even neural scans don't truly tell you what a person is thinking; it is not a portal into their thoughts. It only shows what parts of the brain are activated at what moment - but we are blind to the actual experience the individual is having.

Nonetheless it comes closer than any other method we have thus far, and is definitely a place we need to consider when attempting to answer this question. But also consider other angles - as many as can yield some fruitful data. In my opinion, these would be:


  • Visual Signals/Mannerisms
  • Voice Tone/Fluctuation
  • Neurological (bio/chemical)
  • Genetics

Now, even genetics doesn't gives us a window into the experience of a person's mind - because it is a static code while experience is a dynamic. But if there is a biological root to the difference in people's temperaments then it might also be, at least partially, genetic-based.

That is where, I think, this investigation would peak: If indeed some biological origin existed to temperament, perhaps the most sound argument that could be posed is that it can be measured on a genetic level. But even if that were true, getting to that point without aide from other dimensions would be difficult.

So if we can track backwards to genetics, starting from the observable effects that are seen, we might understand this riddle. So for example, if we compare the dimensions available to us via a dispassionate methodology and let the data compile into clusters on its own -- that narrows the search and we can study those clusters for genetic similarities.

Using the example of Motus + Neuroscience is one attempt at this. We measure two different manifestations of the psyche; from opposite ends. The input (waves/chemistry) and the output (expressions/result) to try to understand the important center (consciousness) better.

Brain activity occurs a split-second before the actual execution of the motion. So if we track enough motions and the brain activity of their execution, we may be able to form a template of what brain activity = visual motion.

And although this all may seem like a mechanical approach to understanding an intuitive phenomenon -- that brain activity isn't irrelevant to psychology. Nor are the motions. This becomes obvious when you actually see the motions and why they're there. The reason a person moves like they do is because of a personal subjective impulse tied to their individual experience at the moment.
....so now, what can be expected from this in the event that there is a reality to it? and if there isn't?
Auburn's Personal Hypothesis:


Imo, there are a lot of motions that are simply just basic human operations, and so even if types existed not every motion would exclusively indicative of that type. I think it would be unrealistic to expect something like that - nor is it necessary.

From my experience, every human has a general body rhythm when conversing. That is, although there is variation even within the same person in different days and different moods -- the way they speak, walk, emote, etc - has a finite parameter.

It is a bell-shape though, so there are outliers but in general people repeat the same motions. And if you took enough footage of a person, day after day, and bitted their video each day you'd see that 90%+ of their movements would become "typical" of them, and you could even formulate a signature exclusive to them. Like, "Motus Alexia".

But it's also sort of pointless to create one motus type for each individual. If we wanted to, we could. But we'd eventually run into identical Motus either way. Even if we took the extreme approach and only created "patterns" (types) from people who share 99% of their own typical 95%-most-common-body-cues (as observed over many weeks of footage) we still would not come up with 7 Billion Motus Types.

I think we might come up with ~10,000 or so. So even if there really were 10,000 motus signatures that would mean there are 700 thousand people with your exact motus signature out there.

But I doubt this will be the case because even in the ~10 samples we've already discussed we've found several motion-groupings and even what might be a motus type shared by Matthew Gray Gubler and Danny Pudi. I think we'll soon be able to make video series about the specific groupings of motions and the predictability they have. And then encourage others to see if they can identify these groupings as well -- as well as creating videos with realtime annotations of the motions people display, hovering around them.

You can look forward to some pretty cool stuff. :)
 

BigApplePi

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@Auburn.

I think you ARE doing cool stuff and will look forward to it though others than me can do better interpreting.

Comments.

1. Your data will come up with groupings. But I don't think those groups will necessarily be natural. It is up to the observers (as you) to decide perhaps how many groups you would like depending on how "alike" the data is. To one person the data may look like 10,000 patterns; to another only 20 or 16. It's partly up to the observer to decide what number is useful and handy.

2. Apparently to date, brain scans are too unrefined to draw refined conclusions from. Not so the converse. Run a test and see what brain scan you get to verify the setup. Great test for verification.

3. I posted this not realizing it was in the Forum Lounge. It belongs under MBTI & Typology. I wonder if you saw it? It raises the question of whether a type belongs to a person or to a "mood" of a person. I may have missed it, but do you intend to run your tests on the same person over a period of time to see if they test the same? Set up different conditions or wait until the person is in a different state and see if that changes the visuals. My guess is it sure would. Consider: happy/sad, laid back/eager, needy/ satisfied ... things like that.
===============

I just replayed your video and ask this question: Are you free of assumptions? If your data is derived from a snapshot of a person, that snapshot need not be representative of the person. That is an assumption. To say people are the same under different circumstances would be a false assumption. (It's motion. Motion is one of the six tools for understanding.)
 
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