Absent Minded Professor (Anti Math)

[Cavallier]

Can I get a "Hells Yes!" from all those of you who fit the Absent Minded Professor Trope but are tired of only hearing about the science/math version? I am very comfortable with art, lit, history, philosphy, psychology, psychiatry, astronomy, humanities, graphology, and every other "ology" but can't stand math.

Don't go doubting my INTPness or I'll cut you.

 

[Fukyo]

Don't go doubting my INTPness or I'll cut you

 

[Cavallier]

*Stabs Fukyo*

Just because I have dyscalculia and a dismally bad math education doesn't mean I'm not an INTP.

*Stabs Fukyo again for good measure*

 

[Deleted member 1424]

You're just bad at math cuz you're a GIRL!

 

[Fukyo]

You're just bad at math cuz you're a GIRL!

It's either that or dem redhead neanderthal genes.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i don't know anything

knowing is for those who don't know better

i'd rather doubt your INTP'ness because you claim to "know" things than because you dislike math

 

[Absurdity]

It's either that or dem redhead neanderthal genes.

Spoiler

 

[NoID10ts]

Oh shit, you hit a nerve...

I fucking HATE math. I mean, I respect it, I understand it's importance, but I fucking hate it.

I had to take algebra three goddamn times in high school because I kept failing, and I took geometry twice. I was required to take one math class in college. I got a D and never looked back. My fifth grade son asks me for help with his math homework and I sit there counting on my fingers until I realize I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I always end up yelling , "You tell your math teacher to go fuck herself," and then I storm out of the room to go punch random shit in the garage. To add insult to injury, my daughter, an eighth grader, helps him out with no trouble at all.

Fucking math. God I hate it.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

i don't know anything

knowing is for those who don't know better

You know nothing.

 

[Grayman]

Hells yes

 

[Brontosaurie]

You know nothing.

yeah

no

or however one confirms such a proposition; i don't know

 

[Cavallier]

Oh shit, you hit a nerve...

I fucking HATE math. I mean, I respect it, I understand it's importance, but I fucking hate it.

I had to take algebra three goddamn times in high school because I kept failing, and I took geometry twice. I was required to take one math class in college. I got a D and never looked back. My fifth grade son asks me for help with his math homework and I sit there counting on my fingers until I realize I don't know what the hell I'm doing. I always end up yelling , "You tell your math teacher to go fuck herself," and then I storm out of the room to go punch random shit in the garage. To add insult to injury, my daughter, an eighth grader, helps him out with no trouble at all.

Fucking math. God I hate it.

In university I received high marks for theory in my chemistry classes but as soon as the prof applied numbers to the theory my brain turned to fog. I became so deeply pissed about it that I finally stopped trying to understand. My friends carried me through the math classes and I carried them through theory.

Mostly I wanted to point out the fallacious and moronic assumption that being comfortable with higher levels of math is a prerequisite for being an INTP.

 

[Cavallier]

i don't know anything

knowing is for those who don't know better

i'd rather doubt your INTP'ness because you claim to "know" things than because you dislike math

Semantics fixed.

I fixed the OP.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Fixed.

was just being an asshole, ignorantly assuming "never mind me" was implied, sry

 

[r4ch3l]

Search "David Tall" and you'll find more of his research on learning styles specifically in math. School is completely within the "visuo-symbolic" realm (formal math) and the enactive (empirical science). My work at university (philosophy) was different from most because everything I did was narrative with thought experiments and especially diagrams cementing everything together (my topics = computer science, informational realism, structuralism, modal logic). People who think this way get left out of science/math often because the teaching style is in direct opposition to the way this type of brain works.

I hated math, only to get a philosophy degree and realize that I'm actually a closet mathematician. x__x Total NP-ness to look at your 4th grade teacher like they're an idiot teaching you multiplication tables and long division processes by memorization because CALCULATORS, DUH. If someone would have told me about modular arithmetic way back when I may have seen a reason for all the work in between. And if the work in between was shortened by something like vedic math I could have dealt with it instead of tapping my pencil x times for x number and counting one-by-one in my head (teachers actually told me to do it this way). But because accounting problems etc. seemed the only use for math it got shoved into the totally useless/boring bin early on.

 

[Wolf18]

@Cavallier, yes. I fit very well into it too, but maths are definitely not my strong point. I'm more interested in language, philosophy,astronomy, psychology, etc. Also, do you fit into cloudcuckoolander/bunny ears lawyer as well?

SW

 

[Skinart]

School is completely within the "visuo-symbolic" realm (formal math) and the enactive (empirical science).

Word problems.

Also, abstract mathematical reasoning problems.

In the end they are generally solved by putting them into the visuo-symbolic realm, but they don't begin there--which is why so many people hate them, and probably why I always loved them. I hated the drill, but I loved word problems. If I did nothing else, I did them.

There are two primary reasons I can think of as to why there is so much emphasis on the visuo-symbolic:

1. It's foundational. Without it, moving into the more abstruse and thought experiment realm tends to leave people in deep water without knowing how to swim or tread.

2. Most students complain and refuse if you push them toward anything else. They whine about the practicality of the practice and drill, then whinge about not understanding word problems. Then go off in a huff about how math is stupid and useless.

 

[Windbag]

Can I get a "Hells Yes!" from all those of you who fit the Absent Minded Professor Trope but are tired of only hearing about the science/math version? I am very comfortable with art, lit, history, philosphy, psychology, psychiatry, astronomy, humanities, graphology, and every other "ology" but can't stand math.

Don't go doubting my INTPness or I'll cut you.

Well, I don't know about a Hells yes, but I got a degree in history because I thought I was terrible at math. Then I went on to do things in the real world that were every bit as difficult as high school math. Ten years after graduating I went back to the Khan academy and discovered that learning math is hard but not impossible, but high school math class is impossible for someone like me.

My knowledge of math is not advanced, but I'll share this: I kind of created a basic architecture for how to organize math concepts:

1. Truth. This is the real relationship between concepts, eg. Pi. God made this. We can describe truth through example and metaphor.

2. Measurement. Man made this: values are just a way of quantifying the truth. The grid we put over the cartesian plane is an artifice so we can find our way around, no more or less real than latitude and longitude in geography.

3. Depiction. Numbers are just a way of depicting the measurement of truth. We could have just as easily used a base 8 number system instead of 10, or even stuck with something like Roman numerals and made computation incomparably more difficult. When you see numbers, relax: just realize that you are two steps removed from Truth, so of course they don't make sense at first glance.

These are early days for me in the pursuit of maths and sciences, but I'd encourage you not to chuck them.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Math seems like it really shouldn't be all that difficult. I think the hardest part about it, for me at least, is remembering all the formulas & axioms, notations, and procedures for computing equations.

When I don't understand a procedure I just stare at an equation blankly or sometimes try to deduce on my own how to work it out. Remembering formulas & axioms is up to mnemonics and repetition, with practice they begin to feel intuitive and you can automatically apply them to new math problems. Notations are impossible to deal with if you don't remember them exactly, as there is rarely any indication of what they do.

The abstraction in higher levels of math doesn't really help in learning it when it's pretty much useless for the average person beyond basic arithmetic and geometry.

 

[Puffy]

I think you already know I'm a hells yes (go hell )

My worst subjects in school were science, maths, and ICT (computers.) I'm the anti-engineer, and an unpractical bastard.

I think my mind for a long time has been more arts-geared. In recent years, I've slowly started reading around more, but that's mainly where it's become related to my personal projects. If that bridge isn't there, it's a question of it being a language I'm too uneducated and unmotivated to get very far into.

 

[redbaron]

But because accounting problems etc. seemed the only use for math it got shoved into the totally useless/boring bin early on.

My problem exactly. I excelled in math early on until the point where I thought its highest purpose was for civil engineering. Then I just lost interest, knowing that I didn't want to be an engineer or an accountant.

I've realised now that the application of math is incredibly broad and covers a lot of things I'm interested in. Better late than never I guess. Still, I find it kind of limiting that they really don't demonstrate the endpoint of all the rote learning and practice you do. At the time it feels completely useless - if I'd had anyone show me just how much you can do with math I would have been all over it.

This seems to be a pretty common occurrence as well. Most people I know don't think math is useful for anything outside of 2 or 3 specific fields, when that couldn't be more wrong.

 

[Minuend]

Since we are talking about math all of a sudden

I kinda like it a lot a lot

I always liked the problem solving just for the problem solving. I preferred algebra. Math about people eating apples or grocery shopping was less interesting. I liked switching numbers around and get the correct answer. I wasn't too fond of geometry, possible because I didn't have the patience or interest in drawing all the figurines. Generally, math has a logic that just really appeals to me.

And the absent minded professor. I got all the unhelpful traits of being absent minded, but I never got the perfect memory or impressive intellect. I feel cheated.

 

[AzuriteCat]

Me: Mom, mom! I just thought of this theory of mine!

Mom: What is it?

Me: *explains half-way*

Mom: Carry on.

Me: ...Shoot. Where was I? ....Oh, yes! *continues explanation*

As for maths, I'm starting to warm up to it. But, calling me a maths expert/fanatic isn't accurate too.

 

[Kuu]

Math seems like it really shouldn't be all that difficult. I think the hardest part about it, for me at least, is remembering all the formulas & axioms, notations, and procedures for computing equations.


Notations are impossible to deal with if you don't remember them exactly, as there is rarely any indication of what they do.

This, definitely.

 

[Words]

I think you have to worry about being a "professor" first before thinking about what kind of professor.

 

[Lot]

I sure do hate me some math.

Getting good at math requires practice.
I don't practice.
Therefore, I don't good at math, bro.

I failed introductory math in college, twice. Then I finally passed with an A.

 

[BigApplePi]

I love math ... or I used to when I was more involved. The reason why you hate math is one of two things:

1. You are exquisitely evil.
2. You haven't bothered with the rules.

Let me simplify it for you. Do you like chess? How can you like chess if you (a) are exquisitely evil or (b) haven't bothered with the rules? The way you can learn to love chess is to

1. Have a great mentor
2. Win a few games
3. Not be exquisitely evil

That has not been my experience which is why I don't play chess.

 

[walfin]

I loved maths, but I always felt that we do math pretty inefficiently. I'm sure our neurons are each capable of processing a mathematical computation, why isn't there a way to harness that power directly?

Of course, I was nevertheless absent minded enough that I didn't hand up most of my maths homework in school, love of the subject be damned.

 

[Analyzer]

Imagine if you were never introduced to math in school or at least required to take classes, would you be into it?

 

[Cavallier]

I think, for me personally, it quite literally comes down to how my brain works. I understood the theory. The reasoning behind formulas were easily enough understood but when it came down to actually applying the numbers to the equation I never managed to get it to work.

I always missed a step here and transposed a number there so that my answers were more often wrong than right. Whoever graded my work would circle various bits in red and add little question marks. They would sometimes ask me how I came up with an answer but since it was several days after I'd done the work I would no longer have any idea. So I continued not knowing what I'd done wrong and rarely received any direction on how to improve. Teachers would advise I read the information again assuming I did not understand the theory. I was often treated as if I wasn't studying or that my failure to get higher scores on exams was due to a laziness on my part. I graduated school with honors. I received high scores in everything else. I became overwhelmed by a sense of pointlessness eventually and gave up on math.

I assumed I was just...stupid at math. I failed at it while others did well. I sometimes wondered if I was telling myself I could not do it until I believed myself. Then, a few years back I tried to pick up again where I had left off in Trig but I could not learn it. I asked friends for help but while they correctly solve math problems they could not explain to me how. Their brains solved the problem seemingly bypassing any significant analytical part of their brains. They input numbers and get out correct answers. I input numbers and get out incorrect answers.

I decided a long time ago my talents are elsewhere. I graduated with a degree in Literature and a minor in Philosophy, Anthropology, and Psychology. (Mostly because I could not decide what I wanted to get a degree in so that when I finally graduated I had done enough work in those three fields that I was able to claim minors in them.) My final year of school, as a part of getting my Philosophy minor, I took a Mathematics and Logics Philosophy course. It was about the theory of math but you never once actually applied numbers. I aced the course. Nobody else in the class did as well as I did.

Numbers man. They eat my lunch.

 

[Analyzer]

Anyone ever take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

I think all INTPs are logical(T) but some are more spatial(N), while others are more verbal(S).

Maybe this is what differentiates the INTP 5w4 which are more logical/spatial while 5w6 are more logical/verbal. Both are good at abstract concepts and logic but the latter is better at literal, more linear sequences like what constitutes most applied math.

 

[BigApplePi]

Numbers man. They eat my lunch.

@Cavallier. Did you ever try plane geometry in grade school? That uses logic instead of numbers.

 

[~~~]

math = hawt

 

[pernoctator]

Total NP-ness to look at your 4th grade teacher like they're an idiot teaching you multiplication tables and long division processes by memorization because CALCULATORS, DUH.

This is really the problem. It's not just an issue of learning styles, it's that there's way too much focus on the mechanics of calculation instead of actual math. Math in general is very intuitive and you would probably all love it if you hadn't spent years on this redundant and impractical teaching method where you learn that you're stupid if you can't produce correct numbers with a pencil and that math is ultimately pointless.

Watch this guy talk about how to teach math properly:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsWKyFg9IdM

 

[Wolf18]

I think, for me personally, it quite literally comes down to how my brain works. I understood the theory. The reasoning behind formulas were easily enough understood but when it came down to actually applying the numbers to the equation I never managed to get it to work.

My problem with maths is that it I do not think linearly (which is apparently a word!). My mind is more like a string that you dropped, and loops over, then switches direction, etc. To be good at maths, I think you need a linear mind.

Thus, I love number theory and theoretical mathematics, but this year I'm taking algebra. Find x. There's so much order; it's driving me mad.

SW

 

[BigApplePi]

Try this. Who recently said there is deductive thought and there is inductive thought?

One type of thought says, you say we are here. I don't want to be here unless you show me how we got here. The other type says, we are here. Where can we go from here?

I haven't thought about this in a long time, but I'd say mathematical thought involves both kinds of thought. The damn problem is there are rules that deal with all those out-of-the-way abstract symbols. Unless you know those rules, you are immersed in a language you don't understand.

@Cavallier. Don't know if you are interested in discussing what's going on. You mentioned you were fond of theory and disliked numbers. I don't understand how you disliked numbers. I take numbers as 2nd nature to me, but if they are just more meaningless abstractions, that would be a reason for hating them. @NoID10ts too. I have to know more about the hatred. How did it start? What's wrong with 5 = 2 + 3?

 

[NullPointer]

What always kept me interested in maths was thinking of each new topic as something like a new Lego piece. The interesting twist is that each new Lego piece is just a clever combination of Lego pieces you already have (courtesy of the way the courses are generally presented to allow each topic to build upon previously-encountered concepts).

Because I expected to be able to make new Lego pieces from the ones I already had, I found it exciting to try to make my own before the teacher gave us the next set of pieces. I guess that comes down to making a game out of it, trying to "outsmart" the curriculum. There's satisfaction whether you manage to or not, because you either get some sort of petty validation when a piece is offered that you've already made, or gain a new Lego piece that you didn't have before.

As you gain the Lego pieces, it's also exciting to think about the things you can build. Just like building a Lego castle, you can build models of the real world using the mathematical Lego pieces. If you have a computer and know a bit of programming, you can build your Lego in there and watch a little snapshot of the real world unfold in a controlled space. You get to play God with your Lego.

I'll end this post here because I'm actually pretty happy with the Lego analogy, I think it works pretty well to express my view on maths.

 

[BigApplePi]

This sounds like a possible good analogy. Math is like those Lego blocks. The mystery remains why some hate math. Is it because they never played with them? Lego blocks are after my time. At my time we had "Tinker Toys."

 

[xZero]

I hate math, and I don't know much of complex math, but definitely once I will start to learn it.

 

[BigApplePi]

No one has explained why they hate math. I hate you!

 

[xZero]

I love math only in Informatics and physics, but in the school I hated if from the bottom of my heart.
Once I got really drunk, after I sobered, other and my girlfriend were surprised because while I wasn't aware, I talked about some more complex math(logarithms, linear functions etc) and physics. I also talked that I want to go to college and study Informatics,math and physics.


They were surprised because they are known about my hate to the math....

 

[Cavallier]

No one has explained why they hate math. I hate you!

I have. I even gave you a short history lesson of my math background.

 

[Wolf18]

No one has explained why they hate math. I hate you!

I have. I said, I don't think in "order."

SW

 

[Etheri]

@Cavallier. Did you ever try plane geometry in grade school? That uses logic instead of numbers.

When I think of maths itself, it rarely involves much numbers. The only true exception, to me, is statistics. Statistics requires data, even tho it can be done quite parametric aswell.

In my honest opinion, to understand the maths you should leave things parametric. Numbers are only useful to get a grasp of the reality you're trying to approach, numbers only get a place when you couple your maths to a physical reality.

I do agree with the typical absent-minded type. I'm certainly one of them, and I'm far from always thinking about science things. Anything on my mind can distract me from other things.

Stop hating maths, why are you letting some scrubby highschool teachers dictate what you like and dislike? What you can and can't do? If you'd gotten over the fundamental dislike, you might've already been better at maths than these teachers themselves ever were.

 

[Etheri]

Lego blocks are after my time.

Wat.

No offence, but how old are you? I always used to play with my father & uncles' lego because in my opinion, the old lego technic models ( end of 70s and 80s) were absolutely awesome. Probably some of the best lego models ever made.

(I have the impression less set-specific pieces were created for technical issues, which instead were solved using traditional pieces inventively. They had gears, wires, chains, hydrolics, ...

A lot of processes and mechanics in machinery was displayed in these lego sets. I honestly believe lego's taught me a LOT of basic technical insight.

 

[BigApplePi]

No offence, but how old are you?

Old enough to know better. I'm immature for my age though.
______________________

I probably won't be doing a good job of this, but saying one hates math is like saying one hates food or people. There are all kinds of mathematics and there are all kinds of food and people. Some to like; some to dislike.

Math is normally, formally divided into four parts:
1. Arithmetic
2. Algebra
3. Geometry
4. Analysis

I am not a math writer even though I have the equivalent of a Masters in math.

1. Arithmetic. Deals with numbers. Numbers are strange and behave in strange ways. Seventeen can't be divided up, but four is the only number where you can double and multiply another number and get four.

2. People got tired of repeating numbers over and over, like Si people. So they decided to generalize. 2 times X + 3 times X always = 5 times X, no matter what X is. Must be Ne people.

3. Geometry. How does one deal with flat and solid surfaces? If you have a map, how many colors minimum do you need to color it? Same colors can't touch each other.

4. Analysis. How do things change? How close can you get and how far can you go without messing up? Analysis (commonly called calculus) formalizes the logic involved.

So what? So some people are curious as to what goes on and how it's done. Those people can be seduced by math. This still doesn't explain hatred. I'm drawing a blank here. Maybe those who hate math hate this thread. Maybe hatred is embarrassing or shameful. Not true I say. I'm just looking for an explanation. Hey. I have an idea. Explain why one hates people or food!

 

[Cavallier]

When I think of maths itself, it rarely involves much numbers. The only true exception, to me, is statistics. Statistics requires data, even tho it can be done quite parametric aswell.

In my honest opinion, to understand the maths you should leave things parametric. Numbers are only useful to get a grasp of the reality you're trying to approach, numbers only get a place when you couple your maths to a physical reality.

I do agree with the typical absent-minded type. I'm certainly one of them, and I'm far from always thinking about science things. Anything on my mind can distract me from other things.

Stop hating maths, why are you letting some scrubby highschool teachers dictate what you like and dislike? What you can and can't do? If you'd gotten over the fundamental dislike, you might've already been better at maths than these teachers themselves ever were.

I agree that my distaste for numbers is indeed part of the problem. That's not really the point of the thread though. I wanted to point out that not all INTPs are necessarily comfortable with math or numbers but that does not make them any less intelligent, capable, brainy, or indeed less INTP than the masses who do like manipulating numbers.

My game is words. Philosophy and art are my toys. My insatiable curiosity and need to explore the big picture via the details lies in those realms.

I bleed geek! Am I not an INTP?

 

[BigApplePi]

@Cavallier.

I have. I even gave you a short history lesson of my math background.

I think, for me personally, it quite literally comes down to how my brain works. ... when it came down to actually applying the numbers to the equation I never managed to get it to work.

I always missed a step here and transposed a number there so that my answers were more often wrong than right. ... I graduated school with honors. I received high scores in everything else. I became overwhelmed by a sense of pointlessness eventually and gave up on math.

I assumed I was just...stupid at math. ...Then, a few years back I tried to pick up again where I had left off in Trig but I could not learn it. I asked friends for help but while they correctly solve math problems they could not explain to me how. Their brains solved the problem seemingly bypassing any significant analytical part of their brains. They input numbers and get out correct answers. I input numbers and get out incorrect answers.

... My final year of school, as a part of getting my Philosophy minor, I took a Mathematics and Logics Philosophy course. It was about the theory of math but you never once actually applied numbers. I aced the course. Nobody else in the class did as well as I did.

Numbers man. They eat my lunch.

My ability to ask the right question goes along the lines of what you said about numbers. Not so good.

I read what you said. What I'm after is the psychology of how the brain works I suppose. You do not handle numbers but can handle theory. This is something like dislexia where numbers and letters get transposed.

I'm not sure what you mean by "handling numbers." If the problem is 2 and 4, do you put down 4 and 2 or 4 and 3? Do you suppose if you had slowed down you could have processed correctly? What would be a problem you could not solve? Addition? Labeling with the right number? I don't get it. Could it be you are so fast, you drop the details? Or could it be you just hate details, like particular numbers? How would a number differ from words?

I've heard there are tribes in the Amazon(?) who cannot conceptualize numbers. Me? As a kid I used to sit in my rocking chair and tried to count to a million.

Of course if my Q's are too disagreeable, you don't have to answer, but it's your thread.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Can I get a "Hells Yes!" from all those of you who fit the Absent Minded Professor Trope but are tired of only hearing about the science/math version? I am very comfortable with art, lit, history, philosphy, psychology, psychiatry, astronomy, humanities, graphology, and every other "ology" but can't stand math.

Don't go doubting my INTPness or I'll cut you.

Hello there, comrade!
"Hells Yes!"

*Stabs Fukyo*

Just because I have dyscalculia and a dismally bad math education doesn't mean I'm not an INTP.

*Stabs Fukyo again for good measure*

They introduced us to maths by counting concrete objects,
then moved on to simple operations based on dice games,
and then to the sliding rule.
I never finished the transition from concrete objects to abstract numbers that only exist as an idea.
In my head i would still operate the sliding rule, or dice.
This was a huge problem later on.
But i am very good at geometry. Yay!

 

[ENTP lurker]

I'm absent minded as hell and very decent at math, scientist... sort of not in university currently.

I'm very lazy so mathematical formulation helps to cut corners. You... freaking worker bee.