About Lies

[Jesin]

Yet another link:
http://www.paulgraham.com/lies.html

 

[Vrecknidj]

Okay, so, that's really long.

Is there something in particular in there that you wanted to discuss?

I find the whole subject of lying rather fascinating. Some occupations (professional poker player, for instance), actually seem to require being a good liar if one is to be successful. Other occupations (judge, for instance) seem to require not being a liar if one is to be successful.

And yet we tell kids these fabulous tales about Santa...

Dave

 

[Kuu]

That was a long read indeed. Paul Graham has many good rants on many subjects...

The conspiracy is so thorough that most kids who discover it do so only by discovering internal contradictions in what they're told. It can be traumatic for the ones who wake up during the operation. Here's what happened to Einstein:

Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic freethinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies: it was a crushing impression. ​

I remember that feeling. By 15 I was convinced the world was corrupt from end to end.

My experience as well. After that terrible instant of clarity when all pieces fall into place and you realize that religion, government and family, nay, most institutions of mankind are corrupt... well that is a monstrous experience for a 14 year old... I was such an idealist, and I was indeed utterly crushed... and fell into a hole of nihilism that took at least 3 years to get out from, and which forever broke my capacity to trust people...

It's such a horrible mistake. We shouldn't lie to kids. Not about sex, drugs, politics, religion, death or anything else. They're gonna find out sooner or later. What's the point? By lying, we make them cynical and insensitive to the problems of the real world (at best) or irremediably stupid and ignorant (at worst).

Can anyone think of a good reason to lie about such things to children?

 

[Perseus]

I have not got an alibi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie

 

[Vrecknidj]

It's such a horrible mistake. We shouldn't lie to kids. Not about sex, drugs, politics, religion, death or anything else. They're gonna find out sooner or later. What's the point? By lying, we make them cynical and insensitive to the problems of the real world (at best) or irremediably stupid and ignorant (at worst).

Can anyone think of a good reason to lie about such things to children?

Everything is circumstantial. But, there's lying, and then there's deception, and then there's omission.

There are things a responsible adult should not say to, for example, a 5-year-old. But, that doesn't condone lying. One problem, I think, is that far too many people are too lazy to find honorable ways of talking to children and find it far easier to just lie or deceive. That, of course, is ruinous, but if they can avoid any feeling of culpability, it's easy enough for them to move on.

But the damage is done.

Dave

 

[Raison D'etre]

"Can anyone think of a good reason to lie about such things to children?"

I guess some parents want to prolong their child's happiness. They know that once you leave that false reality, you can never return and thus must venture forth into this harsh adult world. The real problem is the right time to tell the truth.

 

[Jordan~]

That was a long read indeed. Paul Graham has many good rants on many subjects...

My experience as well. After that terrible instant of clarity when all pieces fall into place and you realize that religion, government and family, nay, most institutions of mankind are corrupt... well that is a monstrous experience for a 14 year old... I was such an idealist, and I was indeed utterly crushed... and fell into a hole of nihilism that took at least 3 years to get out from, and which forever broke my capacity to trust people...

It's such a horrible mistake. We shouldn't lie to kids. Not about sex, drugs, politics, religion, death or anything else. They're gonna find out sooner or later. What's the point? By lying, we make them cynical and insensitive to the problems of the real world (at best) or irremediably stupid and ignorant (at worst).

Can anyone think of a good reason to lie about such things to children?

Very interesting - I am 15, and I was something of an idealist, but the realisation of the corruption of the world sort of came in stages. By 7, I had discovered a very childish form of atheism - I basically figured out that God was just a story grown-ups told children to scare them into behaving. Given a few more years' exposure to the broad range of media a curious, intelligent child will absorb, this idea strengthened and expanded to "God is just a story the priesthood tell the masses to scare them into behaving". I was developing a kind of morality by this point, though I still didn't know any formal logic. When I did read up on logic, I started arguing, a lot, and with everyone (something I still do, and will probably continue to do). It was quite disillusioning to suddenly realise that most of the world was operating on false pretences and fallacious thinking. Advertising became evil, politicians sinister, etc. It was around this time that I used my newfound skill to convert my dad, whose faith had been shaken a few years earlier by the death of his mother, to atheism. It was a gradual process, but he's a thinking type, and won't deny reason when he hears it.

That got a bit rambly, which is a horrible tendency I have. Anyway, I don't think I was ever crushed catastrophically. Maybe it's because it came in stages. The closest thing I can think of is when I adopted determinism (as a consequence of a long series of arguments with an Internet friend that left me with no counterargument - he offered his own counterargument [he's a debater, and prone to playing devil's advocate] and I pointed out its flaws), and that only lasted about a week before I got over it, though perhaps the damage it did remains - I don't think I was quite so serious or generally melancholy before, nor was there a real need for escapism.

 

[fullerene]

That was pretty good. Some sketchy parts, but overall pretty good.

In particular, do you think that teenagers lie to their parents or that parents lie to their kids because they don't want them to freak out? When I was a teenager I'd lie (well, not really overtly lie, but lie like he defines it, by omission) just cause I didn't want to deal with getting yelled at. My parents must have always been the "its inappropriate" answering type, at least whenever I asked, because I don't trust their judgment on things anymore in the slightest. Never reasons, always "because I said so." By like... I guess it was the end of middle school, I stopped telling them... well... everything. I couldn't judge when they'd suddenly be upset, and I don't like being yelled at... so I just stopped telling them stuff.

On the same topic (mostly to you older folk), do most parents really lie to children just so they don't "freak out"? When reading that article it sounded like (and honestly this is just my prior assumptions talking) the parents he interviewed didn't know the answer themselves. Either that or simply being "inappropriate" is just an extension of the innocence thing (that if kids learn to swear, and company comes over and they start swearing, the parents will be embarrassed by it because other adults assume that children should be innocent?).

Maybe it's just me being stupid and playing exactly into his argument, cause I'm just over 18 and am definitely arrogant enough to think my opinions on life and raising children make more sense than the adults' I know (although to be honest, most of those opinions are formed around "don't lie to your kids" like he suggests, haha), but from an objective analysis from one of the adults here... is he actually accurate in parsing out the reasons for this kind of stuff, or are they mostly good reasons with little bits of self-deception scattered throughout (like the "not having your kids make you look bad in front of others" thing I mentioned)

 

[Jesin]

In particular, do you think that teenagers lie to their parents or that parents lie to their kids because they don't want them to freak out? When I was a teenager I'd lie (well, not really overtly lie, but lie like he defines it, by omission) just cause I didn't want to deal with getting yelled at.

Yup, I do that. My dad overreacts to everything.

I really should stop doing that, though. It's gotten to be a bit of a problem.

 

[fullerene]

It's such a hard line to walk. Tell your parents anything borderline and there's the chance they yell at you for it. Tell them nothing and you're safe for the present (although they start to wonder what you do). Then the problem compounds because the longer you tell them nothing, the less chance they have to see you change--so you perpetually remain "that little kid" in their eyes, regardless of what you're doing and what's going on inside your head.

sigh...

 

[loveofreason]

Sometimes lying to children isn't a considered act, just one of pure exhaustion and exasperation. Small children can wear you down so thoroughly. Lies can be to prevent a 'scene', or sometimes to forestall a long and taxing conversation.

If parents are yelling consider that it could have more to do with their own unmet needs rather than anything objectively wrong with what you, the offspring, has said/done. We're just kids in adult's clothing and screw things up all the time.

I think the worst lie to perpetuate is that the adult is infallible and always right.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

I understand not telling children of some things but as far as religious beliefs, the cycle of life includeing how he or she was born, sex, death then things like drugs i would put off on telling them about until they started asking questions about me because i smoke mary-jane and don't plan on stopping. But once they did ask me i would tell them everything..i would probably actually emphasize extremely that if they ever even tried any hard drugs like acid, crack, heroine and whatever else...theres to many wild drugs...but anyway if they told me they did any of them i would kill them..literally.. But anyway i think ive got a little off topic..Ahh yes, lying, I myself dont have any kind of problems with lying..i actually am strikingly honest..however mean i may have to be... I never had to lie too much to my parents since my method was to completely ignore whatever conversation she is having with me...i obviously dont just tune her out, i just go into "alone mode" and process what she is saying in my head until i just get mad and say something rash. This happens every other time i talk to my mother....she just has a tendency to rant on and on about how she feels so its obvious why it gets on my nerves....way off topic again...o well..had fun typing it lol