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A niggling social problem

Gyppo

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#1
This post is a rant about something that perhaps seems a bit trivial but that keeps happening and really does bother me, I think more so because of my personality, and I wouldn't be surprised if others here could relate.

Basically, it's when I make a statement and I can tell from their inappropriate response what my collocutor has "read between the lines", inferring something false and embarrassing in the process.

To them I seem simple and socially inept in my apparently poor attempt at concealing the "true sentiment" of my comment yet I can't deny it nor clarify the real meaning without coming across as more insecure about this false ailment. I therefore feel a great deal of guilt about something that isn't even true, feeling I have to defend myself, and helpless and humiliated about my inability to actually do so. I can't stand being in a submissive position, evermore when it's unwarranted.

I always feel a strong urge to make sure people are aware of the truth of any given situation which is what leads to my frustration on this matter. Nine times out of ten throughout my life that people have got pissed off with me is when they jump to their own conclusions and I'm quickly dismissed, and I just don't let it go, pestering them until they explode or show any real sign of acknowledgement. I can't really control it, it's such a strong urge.

This is what leads my mum to call me aspergic but I've read about the condition and I really don't believe it otherwise describes me. It ties back to her (amidst other people's) false inferences as she thinks I'm a social spastic because she can't grasp that I'm saying what I mean and I'm not poorly hiding my true thoughts when I speak.
 
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#2
People will always make false assumptions about you. Their perception of you is, without exception, going to be wildly different from your own. There's nothing you can do about that, other than find strategies to cope with it.

A lot of social problems do not have one-size-fits-all solutions. But being blunt when you need to be and having the self-worth to not give too many fucks are surprisingly effective heuristics.
 

Gyppo

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#3
A lot of social problems do not have one-size-fits-all solutions. But being blunt when you need to be and having the self-worth to not give too many fucks are surprisingly effective heuristics.
You know, when I was a child that was about the last advice someone would have to have given me. It's funny that what many would regard as a positive development, avoiding being brash and obnoxious in conversation, as I think you rightly say is actually pretty shit, and maybe causes more problems than it solves. I suppose my self-worth has declined with my depression as a teenager.
 

Serac

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#4
Do you have any examples?

I might be familiar with what you're talking about though. I used to have this problem sometimes back in the day when I thought that conversations with people were about the semantical content, as opposed to how you say things or what the implicit intention behind the words are.

For people who have traveled a lot it might be a familiar experience to see how much can be communicated without neither of the parties understanding a single word in the conversation. It's good practice for understanding the sub-communication of words.
 

Serac

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#7
Do you have any examples?
It is a surprisingly common template but no, I'd rather not divulge any examples, because I've expressed it as clearly as I can and frankly, I don't want to. See, I was being blunt, no?
I guess this is a good example actually, because here you come off as a douche, probably without realizing it yourself. My advice is: learn sub-communication
 
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#8
A lot of social problems do not have one-size-fits-all solutions. But being blunt when you need to be and having the self-worth to not give too many fucks are surprisingly effective heuristics.
You know, when I was a child that was about the last advice someone would have to have given me. It's funny that what many would regard as a positive development, avoiding being brash and obnoxious in conversation, as I think you rightly say is actually pretty shit, and maybe causes more problems than it solves. I suppose my self-worth has declined with my depression as a teenager.
Same here, at one point chronic depression absolutely destroyed my self-worth and my self-identity. I'm in my 20s now, but something I failed to realize as a highly neurotic teenager was this, no one is capable of perfectly rational and objective thought. Especially when it comes to themselves. If you treat yourself like a robot or a lab rat, and not as a human being, you risk engaging in very critical negative self-talk. Over time, this destroys your self-worth and causes your brain to rewire your intuitions and thought patterns in all kinds of weird ways.

You can fix this, it just requires time and doing the same thing in reverse. Most normal/neurotypical people are running around while holding all kinds of completely baseless but positive beliefs about themselves, so why not you?
 

Gyppo

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#9
Do you have any examples?
It is a surprisingly common template but no, I'd rather not divulge any examples, because I've expressed it as clearly as I can and frankly, I don't want to. See, I was being blunt, no?
I guess this is a good example actually, because here you come off as a douche, probably without realizing it yourself. My advice is: learn sub-communication
Yeah, I will, thanks. I think as I am, maybe I just seem like a douche through any way I can think to express myself. Oh god, I'm not a douche, am I?
...
 

Gyppo

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#11
A lot of social problems do not have one-size-fits-all solutions. But being blunt when you need to be and having the self-worth to not give too many fucks are surprisingly effective heuristics.
You know, when I was a child that was about the last advice someone would have to have given me. It's funny that what many would regard as a positive development, avoiding being brash and obnoxious in conversation, as I think you rightly say is actually pretty shit, and maybe causes more problems than it solves. I suppose my self-worth has declined with my depression as a teenager.
Same here, at one point chronic depression absolutely destroyed my self-worth and my self-identity. I'm in my 20s now, but something I failed to realize as a highly neurotic teenager was this, no one is capable of perfectly rational and objective thought. Especially when it comes to themselves. If you treat yourself like a robot or a lab rat, and not as a human being, you risk engaging in very critical negative self-talk. Over time, this destroys your self-worth and causes your brain to rewire your intuitions and thought patterns in all kinds of weird ways.

You can fix this, it just requires time and doing the same thing in reverse. Most normal/neurotypical people are running around while holding all kinds of completely baseless but positive beliefs about themselves, so why not you?
I don't know if you've read it, but I've just got through 1984, and it feels like people are telling me I'm insane for not engaging in doublethink.
 

Gyppo

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#12
But yeah, my rationality does fail when I self-apply. Did you focus on finding positives? Throwing yourself into things? Not dwelling on bad experiences?
 

Gyppo

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#13
Oh my, sub-communication is a body language thing... but I was communicating through text... I am a douche! :(
 
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#14
Yeah, it is doublethink, isn't it? I think holding contradictory beliefs is very typical behavior for us humans, feeling happy or content requires constant self-deception and being successful often requires tricking ourselves into mindlessly pursuing material goals.

I did all of the above. You described it to a t. Focus on the things you do well and remember not to undervalue them , you might be at the 90th percentile for some skill and be constantly self-flagellating yourself over not being on par with the people at the 99th (Dunning-Kruger etc). Also, like you said, cultivate the mental control necessary to let awkward or embarrassing situations pass by as a fact of life, rather than spending the rest of your day dwelling on them and how you could have done things differently.

Honestly, try to be more of an asshole. People will give you generic advice that blames you and boils down to 'do as I say, not as I do'. They're either trying to make you more agreeable to their will, or they've genuinely misread you. Instead, observe how they actually behave. Most people are hypocrites.
 

Gyppo

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#15
Yeah, it is doublethink, isn't it? I think holding contradictory beliefs is very typical behavior for us humans, feeling happy or content requires constant self-deception and being successful often requires tricking ourselves into mindlessly pursuing material goals.

I did all of the above. You described it to a t. Focus on the things you do well and remember not to undervalue them , you might be at the 90th percentile for some skill and be constantly self-flagellating yourself over not being on par with the people at the 99th (Dunning-Kruger etc). Also, like you said, cultivate the mental control necessary to let awkward or embarrassing situations pass by as a fact of life, rather than spending the rest of your day dwelling on them and how you could have done things differently.

Honestly, try to be more of an asshole. People will give you generic advice that blames you and boils down to 'do as I say, not as I do'. They're either trying to make you more agreeable to their will, or they've genuinely misread you. Instead, observe how they actually behave. Most people are hypocrites.
I like you, dude.
 
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#20
But after breaking me down, you build me back up to love me? A bit of a roundabout way but still
Way easier and probably more legal to just mentally change yourself. You're a teenager -- rewiring yourself to think differently is the easiest thing in the world. You have the neuroplasticity to change anything, you just have to believe.
 

Serac

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#21
Oh my, sub-communication is a body language thing... but I was communicating through text... I am a douche! :(
Body language is a part of it. By no means all of it. It's generally all aspects of communication that can signal intent and your attitude towards the counterparty. People are generally much more sensitive to that than the semantic content of your words.
 

Gyppo

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#23
Oh my, sub-communication is a body language thing... but I was communicating through text... I am a douche! :(
Body language is a part of it. By no means all of it. It's generally all aspects of communication that can signal intent and your attitude towards the counterparty. People are generally much more sensitive to that than the semantic content of your words.
How subtle and ambiguous is it? Could I cover it with a checklist? Watch your tonal inflections, sentence composition, body language, facial expressions, and be very sensitive to what they could make of it?
 
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#24
DeltaForce, do you think I should say yay or nay to drugs?
I've dabbled with LSD, weed, alcohol and a few nootropics. None of them solved my depressive tendencies, outright solve any mental issues for me or made me quantifiably more intelligent. On the other hand, I'd be lying if I said LSD wasn't a profound experience. And it did ever so slightly push me in the right direction in terms of confronting my mental issues. Alcohol, in the right amount, was enough to show me what I was capable of if I was a little less inhibited.

I'd recommend exercising extreme caution with drugs. They're fun and slightly useful at best and at their worst they can mess up your neurochemistry for years. If you're going to do it, stick to the tamer psychedelics and stuff with low potential for harm please.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_harmfulness

There's channels like PsychedSubstance and DrugsLab on Youtube, which are useful for cross-referencing dosage information and trip experiences.
 

Hadoblado

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#26
Most of the people that make the complaints you're making just have poor social skills. When you have poor social skills, you lack the ability to see this, and therefore it's unclear to you what exactly the problem is.

Humans are highly advanced socialisers. The amount going on in even a simple conversation is astounding. When you get something even a little bit wrong, it can stand out like a sore thumb. Tone, expression, orientation of body, emphasis, attention... Conversation is a sophisticated dance, but if you know the dance, you don't really think about the dance, but you know it when you see it. It's subconscious.

So if people think you have aspergers, you might be on the spectrum, you might just have limited social skills. Unless you plan on getting a diagnosis it doesn't matter which.

Also... People tend to be kind of bad at knowing themselves. Intentions seems obvious but there's often a discrepancy between what they say about themselves and how they act. So I don't trust people to accurately represent themselves in this way, and I extend this to my conscious thoughts about myself. So when you say you just care about the truth... I'm skeptical.

But don't take this personally. I don't know you, I can't.

People are pretty decent at reading between the lines. Even if you're unaware of the intentions people ascribe to you, it's a decent possibility that you have them but are unaware of them. I wouldn't put much stock in any one-time conclusion, but if there's a particular observation that is made multiple independent times, I'd pay attention to it and least think about why you think it's not true.
 

Serac

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#27
Oh my, sub-communication is a body language thing... but I was communicating through text... I am a douche! :(
Body language is a part of it. By no means all of it. It's generally all aspects of communication that can signal intent and your attitude towards the counterparty. People are generally much more sensitive to that than the semantic content of your words.
How subtle and ambiguous is it? Could I cover it with a checklist? Watch your tonal inflections, sentence composition, body language, facial expressions, and be very sensitive to what they could make of it?
If you're making obvious mistakes then it can be quite conspicuous and not so subtle. But beyond that, it's quite subtle indeed. Like Hado wrote above, it's a sophisticated dance. And different styles can work for different people. So it's impossible to distill it down to a checklist. Maybe if you could have given examples it would be easier to tell what the problem is, but as it stands, I cannot really give any pointers.
 

redbaron

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#28
is there an instance of this you can describe?
 

Hadoblado

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#29
@redbaron
They've been asked, they don't want to divulge, which is fair enough though limiting.

@Gyppo
I should mention, I fucking hate being misunderstood too. I'll often make an immediate and somewhat crooked abortion of the topic in order to get away from the frustration I feel when I'm misrepresented. I led with the problem solving but I probably should have also communicated the empathy I feel for this sort of things as well.
 

redbaron

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#30
oh yeah i read the thread in full sorry bud
 

Niclmaki

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#31
Do you mean something like this?

What is actually being said:

My mom: Hey look, the icecream cart opened up early this year.

Me: Cool, must be because the weather is so hot.

-What is really being said in my moms eyes is...-

My mom: Look, icecream, I want icecream lets go get some. Do you want some?

Me: Its hot in the car, turn the AC higher.

This gets very frustrating very fast because I have to reanalyze everything I plan on saying so she doesn’t misunderstand something. It’s like communicating entirely though hints. ESPECIALLY if I don’t answer her “questions”, she’ll assume I’m being rude and not answering her/avoiding the “question”.
 

Serac

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#32
It actually sounds like you're living with people who don't have a sense of humor nor much interest in understanding you.

Funny examples though. Experiment with raws eggs in bed – that's some next-level INTP shit
 

Hadoblado

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#34
HAhahahaHAHAha oh dear XD

Okay so when people 'read between the lines', they're making a guess and putting it away for later to confirm. You don't have to defend yourself against each and every possible negative interpretation - as you've shown you understand, doing so makes you look guilty.

TBH I've likely got a similar pattern of thought to you, but my friends are such shitsniffing snoops that I've had to become comfortable with it.

Eggs
Okay so little known fact: basically everyone masturbates, and if they don't, they're the weird ones. Also little known fact: nobody really cares, just don't make it their problem.
Honestly, if I didn't, I'd be tempted to pretend that I did just so people didn't think I was dishonest. It sounds like your mum is just assuming you do (which is probably a good guess), and has accepted it.

H202 joke
In this situation it's your brother that's the butt of the joke, not you, so you don't have to explain it unless you feel bad for him. So long as your sister knows it's a joke then it's fine.

A lot of these sorts of things where people 'read between the lines' are actually just throw away, at least with the snoops I hang around. It doesn't cost you much to accuse someone of something, then they have to do backflips trying to deconstruct the narrative you've built. I don't think I've ever so much as talked to a girl in front of my friends without getting accusations of coming on to them for instance, but I know they know that's not the case, so don't bother defending myself. They just want me to be uncomfortable. And I do the same to them (but like to think I'm a bit more refined than them in how I do it).

Have you got anxiety? The thought pattern reminds of social anxiety.
 

Hadoblado

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#35
Embrace the anonymity. Unless there's a way for people to track your activity, you don't really have to worry about it.

Regarding anxiety... Yeah that sounds like you have it. Not that I should be diagnosing you or anything but assuming someone's dead because your mum says your name is pretty telling.
Depression too if you're thinking of topping yourself... Yes, go see the psychiatrist. Please, for your sake. Things get better when you know what you're struggling with.

I don't know if there's a specific word for what you're thinking of, toxic shame maybe? I had something similar when I was a teen, but have overcome it.
 

Serac

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#36
To me it just sounds like you're dealing with the combination of the usual teenage-insecurities and a somewhat toxic environment. Trust me, it gets better.
 

QuickTwist

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#38
Well, I saw the psychiatrist. Amazing guy. What happened to me was depersonalisation.
Interesting.

You said psychiatrist. Did you mean psychologist?

Regardless, it's pretty interesting what you found out about yourself. I would take that as valuable information to have.

I can somewhat relate to what you were saying, and it's me just knowing that some people operate more through the lens of "this is what I think" over "how would this be perceived by others to say this?" I tend to err on the former quite a bit unless the situation is delicate for some reason.
 

Cognisant

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#39
Gyppo it sounds to me like you're having trouble holding your own in a conversation and I agree with Serac that's very likely the result of a toxic environment.

Sometimes got to be rude, say something like "no that's not what I meant and you know it" or "don't be so presumptuous" or just straight up call them out on their assumptions "do you really think I'm <assumption>".

I always feel a strong urge to make sure people are aware of the truth of any given situation which is what leads to my frustration on this matter. Nine times out of ten throughout my life that people have got pissed off with me is when they jump to their own conclusions and I'm quickly dismissed, and I just don't let it go, pestering them until they explode or show any real sign of acknowledgement. I can't really control it, it's such a strong urge.
I can totally relate to that, if someone twists my words, says something about me that isn't true or misquotes me there will be hell to pay, as there should be.
You CANNOT let people do that.
 

Cognisant

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#40
At work I have an issue with people who are vague and people learn not to be vague around me, for example this week I had someone hand me a device and they said "I took this off Julie" (not actually Julie, just someone) now what they meant was "return this to Julie". Instead I asked "so to be clear am I giving this to her or hiding it from her?" which got a few laughs and embarrassed the person who gave it to me.
 

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#41
At work I have an issue with people who are vague and people learn not to be vague around me, for example this week I had someone hand me a device and they said "I took this off Julie" (not actually Julie, just someone) now what they meant was "return this to Julie". Instead I asked "so to be clear am I giving this to her or hiding it from her?" which got a few laughs and embarrassed the person who gave it to me.
Yeah, and that's completely necessary because... ???
 

Cognisant

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#42
Because if someone asks me to do something they should tell me they want me to do something not expect me to read their mind, I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
 

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#43
Because if someone asks me to do something they should tell me they want me to do something not expect me to read their mind, I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
I don't think that is unreasonable either unless you do actually know what they mean, in which case, embarrassing them for them being "normal" seems a bit douchey to me.
 

QuickTwist

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#46

Cognisant

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#48
Because if someone asks me to do something they should tell me they want me to do something not expect me to read their mind, I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.
I don't think that is unreasonable either unless you do actually know what they mean, in which case, embarrassing them for them being "normal" seems a bit douchey to me.
My initial assumption was that because this person was telling me that had taken something away from the other person that they meant to keep it away from that person, that's a rational assumption, but what they meant was the exact opposite of that reasoning and had to be deduced entirely from context. All I did was ask for clarification, I even prefaced it with "to be clear" to indicate that I was genuinely unsure of what they meant, if they're embarrassed by that I don't see that as being my fault.

It's like crashing a car into a brick wall and blaming the wall for being in the way.

Yeah, prescribed 100mg a day of sertraline. I don't think he suggested anything. Just the meds
That's alarming, how old are you? I have the impression you're in your teens or early twenties in which case you really shouldn't be taking any kind of brain chemistry altering medication unless it's absolutely necessary, i.e. you pose a clear risk to yourself and others.

Have you been to a psychologist? Unless you've actually tried to kill yourself or others I would assume you would need to get a referral from a psychologist before you're even allowed to see a psychiatrist, that's like skipping the GP and going straight to a surgeon.
 
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#49
Regarding antidepressants, seems like a lot of studies showing negative results have been withheld from being published, giving the impression they have more or a better effect than they really have. This is probably not a problem isolated to antideps. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-hidden-harm-of-antidepressants/

Tfw when there's so much corruption and/ or incompetence everywhere

I actually developed gastroparesis and various health problems while being on SSRIs in my early 20s. Ofc, it might have been a coincidence.
 

QuickTwist

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#50
LOL...

At the beginning of the article, they leave out how many "youth" are prescribed Anti-Depressants, only mentioning how many adults are one them, but the whole article seems to be about how these Anti-Depressants affect the youth. Less youth are on Anti-Depressants than adults, just FYI. Also, it's pretty well known in the psychological community that when someone starts to get out of their depression (but not fully out of it) that they end up feeling more emotions and are less "numb". Because of this, people's emotions are more regulated and as such, they feel them more, which means that when they are thinking about how shitty their life is, they actually have more motivation to actually DO something about their shitty experience. Part of that I would guess is resentment and as such, they end up taking it out on society. That's why it's standard procedure for patients taking prescription meds for mental health reasons to also be seeing a therapist. Also, standard procedure is for patients to report any SI or SIB and that they should be taken off the med(s) immediately if they have an increase in SI or SIB thought/behaviors.
 
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