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A genetic basis for type

Architect

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In this post I hope to consider the ways genetics determine type. Note that I am not an expert in genetics or biology, these comments are speculation based on my observations and research.

What can we deduce about the genetic determines of type? First look at the brain, which starts with about 30 to 100 megabytes of specification in the compressed genome but ends up with a billion times more complexity*. Clearly the neural nets of the brain aren't encoded in the genome, but the structure of how they form must be encoded. If they were not there would be no reason for them to form.

Observationally, I've seen in the children in my life (mine and nephews and nieces) which I've known from gestation to adulthood, there are some traits which clearly show up very early. For example; I have a nephew who is an obvious ESFP. This behavior was obvious in the womb, where I would see him restlessly moving around, thrusting his arms about himself in his mothers abdomen. My INTP kid by contrast, well we never felt a kick. Late in the game we discovered that he was active at night while we slept, but he still wasn't all that active (my nephew would wake them up by kicking so hard that the husband would feel it!)

So in the womb let's posit that some gross aspects of temperament exert themselves; what I see here is the difference between ES and IN. Namely orientation to information (external or internal) and direction of information (intuition or physical sensation). This is interesting, we know that brain areas having to do with learning undergo more change, whereas structures having to do with sensory processing experience less change after birth*. We also know that ES is far more common than IN types. Could there then be some genetic coding that unusually makes some zygotes less attuned to Sensory processing? Certainly when they were toddlers you could see my kid was more contained and off on his own (in some toddler sense), while my nephew was ranging around, poking things, discovering the world around him. Could it be that being an IN is a defect in sensory processing wiring? Or is it something else?

Some researchers have suggested a hormonal component to type differences. This makes some sense. For example, let's go back to Darwins finches, where he discovered that finches from different Galapagos islands had different types of beaks (mainly length) depending on the type of seed available in their island. How does the genome (which Darwin didn't know about) encode this? Mostly it doesn't. What the genome encodes is the length of time a particular growth hormone is supplied during gestation, which determines beak length. There are two parts to the genome, the static encoding (of a beak which is identical for them all), and gene expression which is how characteristics are expressed in the zygote (which differ for the various finches). So, could hormones determine orientation (E/I, N/S) in the fetus? Certainly my Sensor nephews appear to have much higher hormones than my IN does. While we don't know the answer to this, I suspect it is likely.

To wrap this up, what about the functional stack Ti, Ne, Si and Fe? Surely that isn't encoded in the genome? No I think it isn't. Jung and follow ons hypothesized that the functions were a learned response to the dominant. The inferior (Fe) is a balance to the Dominant, likewise the Tertiary to the Secondary. This I think is likely, certainly we know that the functional stack develops over a childs growth in response to cultural influences, among the psychic pressure of needing to balance the strength of the Dominant**.

So there you have it. I hypothesize that our basic type (E/I and N/S primarily) is probably determined by genetic expression - possibly due to hormone levels. The functional stack is a learned response growth in childhood. So to answer the question "Do you have any free will with regards to type" my answer is "Yes, you don't have any choice"***.

*The Singularity is Near

**Myers-Briggs Theory

*** This is a tongue-in-cheek answer obviously, but I think it is mostly accurate. However, obviously as finch beaks can develop with small differences due to precise levels of growth hormones, personality type can develop somewhat differently during childhood. This is why you can take a roomful of INTP's, and while they all will likely demonstrate Ti characteristics, the exact form of that Ti will differ. Thus, when we get in arguments about how people of a type differ, I say it's a moot point. Yes they do, and yes they don't.
 

TriflinThomas

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Maybe us IN's are mutants like the X-men! :D
 

Ink

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Interesting. Also, could neurotransmitters and how many of each type one has differ between individuals? If so I think there could be something to that

edit: http://www.madregrande.org/healing/neurotransmitters
Hmm, I made an IQ test at a psychologist once and my working memory was excellent (above the 99th percentile or something), I suspect most INTPs have that as well?
 

Architect

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Interesting. Also, could neurotransmitters and how many of each type one has differ between individuals? If so I think there could be something to that

Yes, but I don't place much stock in saying it is due to hormones and neurotransmitters, because that answer doesn't really tell you any more more than you already knew. EVERYTHING in the brain is due to neurotransmitters, or at least communicated via them in massive neural nets. Likewise hormones are used to regulate and control there rest of the body. That's interesting (just like hormones and the Finches beaks), but it doesn't really help you out much.


edit: http://www.madregrande.org/healing/neurotransmitters
Hmm, I made an IQ test at a psychologist once and my working memory was excellent
(above the 99th percentile or something), I suspect most INTPs have that as well?

This strays further afield, but yes I suspect so. Certainly I notice that Sensor friends don't have nearaly the information recall I do (they forget conversations we have that I remember in detail, all the time). That is probably just a consequence of us being so information orientated.

An addendum, to be clear I suspect that the primary two letters (E/I, S/N) are probably determined genetically. I think I and N are recessives, which is why INs are so rare. T/F has a sex component - more males being T and more females being F. I suspect that this is not genetically determined to a first order, but is a consequence of sex programming (perhaps hormones in this case). J/P is the bastard child of typology, as I've written about elsewhere. At best I suspect those are culturally developed in childhood. However, I do see kids who are clearly J and others who are clearly P, so I guess I'm not really sure what to make of J/P.
 

toastedtruth

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I was pondering this thought just last week about genes and types. So effectively, we could be products of a set of dormant genes? But does that explain my parents and my brother being ES, or am I not getting it? :confused:
 
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Does a fetus have a circadian rhythm to even know when mom is awake or at rest? Is one set of parents as sensitive to the actions of a fetus in the womb as the other? I'm going to pragmatically call anything in the womb anecdotal at best.

I think that if the genetic route was fully researched they'd quickly find a clusterfuck of polygenetic mechanisms that produce a lot more than 16 easily definable types. I think it's a far more complicated process involving everything from genetics to mom's diet, the effect of the physical environment on mom (and the various bodily processes that result), early life experiences of the child, etc. IMO it's functionally a markov tree that reduces 186 bajillion mechanisms to a far fewer number of outcomes, except that some outcomes have more paths leading to them.

 

Architect

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Again I'm not especially knowledgeable about genetics, but what does it mean for a gene to be dormant? I suspect that is a lay science term. What I remember from biology is that genes are dominant or recessive. Considering my view above (perhaps too simplistic) that I and N are recessive, then you get this graphic which perfectly describes my family

Autorecessive

My parents had four kids, all Sensors with two Introverts (me and a sibling) and one Intuitive (me). Given this, if they both are carriers for I&N recessives, then the chances are 25% for a kid to be IN, and that's what they happened to get (me). Furthermore I married an INFJ, and our only kid is an INTP. My wife and I are both 'expressed carriers' for the I & N genes, and therefore the probability of a child getting both is high.

Pure speculation, but remember this is all statistical, you can't use this to explain why the odds did or didn't work out in other cases. It's all probabilities.
 

Architect

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Does a fetus have a circadian rhythm to even know when mom is awake or at rest?

Don't know, but our theory was that the baby was lulled to sleep by mom's daytime activities (moving around and such). At any rate his ESFP cousin certainly wanted to come out and join the party.

Is one set of parents as sensitive to the actions of a fetus in the womb as the other? I'm going to pragmatically call anything in the womb anecdotal at best.

Well that's what I said, wasn't it?

I think that if the genetic route was fully researched they'd quickly find a clusterfuck of polygenetic mechanisms that produce a lot more than 16 easily definable types. I think it's a far more complicated process involving everything from genetics to mom's diet, the effect of the physical environment on mom (and the various bodily processes that result), early life experiences of the child, etc. IMO it's functionally a markov tree that reduces 186 bajillion mechanisms to a far fewer number of outcomes, except that some outcomes have more paths leading to them.

OK not a lot of meat there, we'll take that as an opinion I suppose.
 

Ink

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The entire family on my mothers side are S, my dad is ISFP, mom ISTP, me INTP, my two younger brothers ISTP, I definitely need to look for my N ancestor...
 
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OK not a lot of meat there, we'll take that as an opinion I suppose.

Genetics as a field is one of the most rapidly advancing in all of science (which is why I'm currently teaching more of it to an intro biology class than I learned as an undergrad in my 400 level genetics class. Information is being pushed down so it is taught earlier and earlier).

This goes along as a response to the end of post 7 as well. If it were something as simple as dominant and recessive traits, it would already have been documented and people would be producing designer offspring. Multifactorial mechanisms can produce the same results as simple mechanisms. Recessive would just be WAY too easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_trait_locus

And that only addresses the probability of gene inheritance, not how they interact with eachother afterward:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistasis_and_functional_genomics
 

intpz

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@Architect great thread, VERY interesting! With your examples, you have convinced me that I/E/S/N is potentially determined by the genetic code. After all, observation like yours seems to have paid off well. For some reason, I feel thankful for this post. Was a very interesting read. :confused:

I have more comments, but I tend to not share my ideas unless I incorporate them, I'm selfish as that. Guess that has been noticed, as I don't create threads with topics like this.
 

Architect

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Thanks @intpz.

I haven't spent a huge amount of time on this idea but it's slowly been growing in my mind. The main clue was seeing my kids and nephews grow up, and how some aspects of their personality were there in the womb (or appeared to be - and certainly were there as babies), and others developed over time.
 

intpz

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Thanks @intpz.

I haven't spent a huge amount of time on this idea but it's slowly been growing in my mind. The main clue was seeing my kids and nephews grow up, and how some aspects of their personality were there in the womb (or appeared to be - and certainly were there as babies), and others developed over time.

That is what convinced me. Although I realize that it's just a one-time case, but it's more proof than the other possibilities, and it seems plausible, it ignites my mind, and the ashes seem to be ideas, a lot of them, possibilities of how it could work, few quite solid, few discarded. It's pretty awesome. :)
 

Architect

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That is what convinced me. Although I realize that it's just a one-time case, but it's more proof than the other possibilities, and it seems plausible, it ignites my mind, and the ashes seem to be ideas, a lot of them, possibilities of how it could work, few quite solid, few discarded. It's pretty awesome. :)

Come to think of it its more than that; it also includes all of my kids friends. I've known hundreds of kids now, pretty closely. While I didn't know them while they were in the womb, I first met them in preschool. The Sensors are clearly Sensors, from the earliest age. The few iNtuitives are clearly that too. The STJ's are already driving from an early grade (often in sports, always in school). The (few) NF girls are already worrying about social justice.
 

intpz

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Come to think of it its more than that; it also includes all of my kids friends. I've known hundreds of kids now, pretty closely. While I didn't know them while they were in the womb, I first met them in preschool. The Sensors are clearly Sensors, from the earliest age. The few iNtuitives are clearly that too. The STJ's are already driving from an early grade (often in sports, always in school). The (few) NF girls are already worrying about social justice.

That isn't as fascinating. The most fascinating part is kicking/calm part, and infant part. Pre-school is what, 4-5 years old? I knew how to read and do maths at 3.
 

Teohrn

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I definitely think that type is something genetic. So far extroversion and introversion has been proven by brain scans. I suspect the other functions can be proven that way too, the only possible exception being the J/P functions, although I think that's possible too. Hormones might play a part in the T/F and J/P dichotomies.

I think that older humans were much more S than modern humans, or Ns were less adapted to the environment of those days.
 

PhoenixRising

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Very interesting theory. It makes sense that I/E and N/S would be genetically influenced traits. However, I don't think that IN types have a defect in sensory processing. From what I've observed in myself and others who are IN types, we are usually more perceptive of our environment and pick up details that ES types completely miss. Intuition adds to this ability to sense one's environment in that we seem to more easily intuit the meaning and relation of different objects in the environment. This is abstract thinking. The introversion aspect of being an INTP tends us to focus inward rather than outward. IN types also tend to think more and generally be more intelligent, so it could be that the thoughts in our heads simply interest us more than what's outside. Personally, my introversion is a defense mechanism. I live within myself when there are people I don't want to interact with outside. When in the presence of compatible people, I tend to be extroverted and pursue interaction. I see most introverts behave in a similar manner, this forum is an example.
 

Mind Traveller

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I have been researching many aspects of my personality for two years. My personal conclusion is that genetics determines the personality type (intensity and behaviour slightly modified by experience and age) as my family line has at least four successive generations of INTPs.

As far as hormones are involved, I found SSRIs help to reduce the anxiety associated with absorbing so much stimulus through the P function. This hormone seems to become depleated quicky with such intensive brain activity. Use of oxytocin also has had a role in balancing stresses associated with my personal interactions and has reduced my reliance on SSRIs.






Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.”Stanley Milgram
 
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