# 16 types, 16 smiles: The way thinking and feeling functions effect the smile.

##### Banned
the closed mouth, goofy, impish smiles of the intps and the playful yet analytical eyes of ed norton as an intj are matches for me personally.
Ni eyes with an Fe mouth? You might just be an INFJ.

#### snafupants

##### Prolific Member
Ni eyes with an Fe mouth? You might just be an INFJ.
Could my Ni have been masking my more elevated Fe in the form of grasping onto Ti, which would be in the tertiary position as an INFJ? If so, why does the Fe feel threatened? Maybe the Ti is overzealous and maturation occured earlier than it should have. The sensing has always been Se, and in small, irritating measure; alas, this should have been spotted sooner. Just like an affair, it feels like all of the signs were there. My future job is service oriented for fucks sake. Ah, my inferior function has never been feeling, what was going through my head. It's just so easy to get enamored with Ti that all else is blocked out; well, my consolation is the Ti was well developed. People have even said to me INFJ without really being prompted, damn.

#### veronica

##### Redshirt
So, I'm new here, and I won't tell you which one I am. But what can you tell me about these smiles?

Oh, and here's this thing:

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#### veronica

##### Redshirt
Ah, too bad, it was a cool party trick.

#### EyeNTP

##### Member
Tom Cruise as an ISFJ?

Your validity to type people =

Sheldon from BBT is also a definite INTJ

##### Banned
Tom Cruise as an ISFJ?

Your validity to type people =

Sheldon from BBT is also a definite INTJ
Says the random noob that can't type himself.

#### SkyWalker

##### observing y'all from my UFO. inevitably coming dow
I have read old theories about eyes & eyebrows in the past, they match with what Adymus says.

The feeling function pulls the eyes & eyebrows in or out.

- Eyebrows like this o\ /o means you dislike/hate
- Eyebrows like this /o o\ means you like/love

(Feeling is about the split into liking/disliking)

It's not about the way the hair of the eyebrows grows of course, but by the way the muscles pull. And you can type people on how they usually pull these muscles on average (like adymus said: wrinkles tell you a lot).

When you smile, then you like/love something, so the muscles pull /o o\.
(The more the muscles pull the stronger the feeling function, that makes sense to me)

You can also test how they react if they dislike something (a bad joke?), then their "feeling" would pull the eyes & eyebrows the other way.

Te/Ti-doms would have straighter unmovable eyes&eyebrows with no wrinkles, they would pull them less in or out, so thats why their smile only goes until mid-face.

Check the 9 smileys from this wikipedia article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Temperaments

the feelers are the 3 in the left and right column, the thinkers are the 3 in the middle column

difference between left and right: some feelers tend to hate/dislike more often (right column), and some feelers tend to love/like more often (left column), but both are feelers.

(btw in the wikipedia article they say different things than what i say)

---

p.s. the mouth in the pictures shows optimism<>pessimism also known as emotional stability or neuroticism, but i dont know if this is present in MBTI (what i unsuccesfully tried to address in my win vs loss thread).

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Brilliant. Excellent work, some of these I'll have to think about but I think you've about nailed it.

#### dark

##### Bring this savage back home.
Warning - off topic!

[You can take whatever side you wish with Pod'lair, it doesn't matter to me, I can see that the entire thing is just a combination of philosophies and theories that one guy has and now it has becomes something others are following because they like it.

It would be ignorant to claim that the structure is new and independent. It is merely a structured device combining previous known ideas into one cognitive structure much like a religion does. I see Pod'lair more as a pseudo-scientific religion. Which is in no offense to anything, because we all have our choices and beliefs.

It is fairly nice to see an effort to make a new belief system though, even if it is only coming from the ashes of the old.]

Back on topic!

##### Banned
Warning - off topic!

[You can take whatever side you wish with Pod'lair, it doesn't matter to me, I can see that the entire thing is just a combination of philosophies and theories that one guy has and now it has becomes something others are following because they like it.

It would be ignorant to claim that the structure is new and independent. It is merely a structured device combining previous known ideas into one cognitive structure much like a religion does. I see Pod'lair more as a pseudo-scientific religion. Which is in no offense to anything, because we all have our choices and beliefs.

It is fairly nice to see an effort to make a new belief system though, even if it is only coming from the ashes of the old.]

Back on topic!
What did you form that opinion on exactly aside from not liking what you were read as?

It would actually be ignorant not to claim that the structure is new and independent. There are no other systems or theories that are structured in the way Pod'lair is. The Jungian model is not structured to base its reads and understanding off of physiological manifestations, and it doesn't "depend" on the Jungian model in any way. Jung had his principles, Pod'lair has their own.

And lastly, religion is not the only thing that cover other principles and phenomena into its own model, just about every innovative model does that in some way.
Think what you like, but that doesn't take away the fact that Pod'Lair is much stronger and more accurate model than MBTI or JCF will ever be.

#### Zigomanis

##### Banned
What did you form that opinion on exactly aside from not liking what you were read as?

It would actually be ignorant not to claim that the structure is new and independent. There are no other systems or theories that are structured in the way Pod'lair is. The Jungian model is not structured to base its reads and understanding off of physiological manifestations, and it doesn't "depend" on the Jungian model in any way. Jung had his principles, Pod'lair has their own.

And lastly, religion is not the only thing that cover other principles and phenomena into its own model, just about every innovative model does that in some way.
Think what you like, but that doesn't take away the fact that Pod'Lair is much stronger and more accurate model than MBTI or JCE will ever be.
Translation:

Pod'lair is the best because Thomas is a genius...I mean...a guy who was a grappling instructor and has suffered from amnesia is a genius. He obviously knows what he's talkin' 'bout 'cause he saw them cues while groping other men in wrestling matches. He saw them sweat and tears and noticed that only Vyy people can do that!

Pod'lair NEVER, EVER used the same terminology as JCE. EVER. Ihnai is not Ni, it's something different, honest! Blah, blah. Good job guys. Five months since your inception and you have 40 newish members? That's impressive. 5 years before you reach 400? Oh...and the entire forum is composed of ENFP and INFJs...because ENFPs love being put in a box and INFJs love following grappling instructors with amnesia. Uh-huh! Wow! Man, I'll just start a cult of my own. It'll be the amalgamation of scientology and pod'lair...I mean...what could be better than that?

I'll continue to cheer for you guys...my recruiting campaign has been a SMASHING success. Let's see if I can get another 10 before 2012!

@ dark, what did these punks type you as?

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
I'll respond to the first post before reading the rest of the thread. First, I'm an INTP, and I've noticed that my own smile is not very large. I was noting the big beautiful smile of an actress in a romantic comedy I'm watching (Jung Da Bin, shown below) , and I can't do anything like that. But is it my personality type or just the size of my mouth? If I try to smile as wide as she can, I just stretch my lips.

In looking at myself in the mirror, I can see the greatest similarity between my smile and Clint Eastwood's or Christina Ricci's. Among your pictures, I generally find the IxTP smiles most attractive and the ExTP smiles second most attractive. I also find the ExTJ smiles the most unattractive and the IxTJ smiles the second most unattractive. For that matter, I also find the ExFP smiles unattractive. The ExFJ smiles look okay but are a little too smiley. The IxFP smiles are missing a couple pictures. Scarlett Johanson's picture is missing. Although I've heard she's considered beautiful, and I thought she looked fine in Iron Man 2, I've never been that attracted to her. On the other hand, I have been strongly attracted to Christina Ricci in nearly everything I've seen her in. I don't think I like the IxFP smiles pictured here. So, you may be onto something. Among those you pictured, I like the Fe smiles best. Based on your pictures alone, I would seem to favor the smiles of inferior Fe, then auxiliary Fe, then tertiary Fe, then dominant Fe. But I'm not so sure it strictly works like that. Jung Da Bin, pictured above, has a nicer smile than anyone you've pictured here. I'm not sure what her type is, but I don't think she is an inferior Fe type like me. Based on her smiles, what would you say she is?

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
Also, if this were a prettiest smile contest I'd say Cathrine Keener wins.
Curious. I actually dislike her smile. Although your picture of her is missing, I am looking up more pictures of everyone listed here with Google. I am working with the theory that Fe smiles are more attractive than Fi smiles. This theory is based on the images you have provided here. So, the first thing I am checking on is whether your images are characteristic of the people whose images you've used here. It also gives me a chance to look at images of those whose pictures are now missing.
Russell Crowe (INFJ)
With Russell Crowe, I looked for some similarity to my father, and his face does seem similar in the respects you're describing in your post.

Nicole Kidman (INFJ)
With Nicole Kidman, it is harder to see the similarity to my father, though the picture you chose does it better than others I've found on Google, at least when I'm focusing on the features you've described about smiles.

Courtney Cox (ISFJ)
I can see some similarity between Julia Roberts and Courtney Cox. One of the main differences is that Julia Roberts has a huge mouth, which allows her to smile with more of her face. Is it accurate to assume that people with large mouths, in terms of how wide it can open, are feeling types, and those with small mouths are thinking types? Or is the difference in mouth size something that might independently affect how much of the face a smile takes up?

Oscar De La Hoya (ESFP)
With Oscar De La Hoya, I am looking for some similarity with someone I'm fairly certain is an ESFP, and I think I see it.

Cameron Diaz (ESFP)
I'm noticing that like Julia Roberts, Cameron Diaz has a huge mouth. The picture you chose for Cameron Diaz is particularly ugly. She's not one of the best-looking actresses in the world, but she normally looks better than that. The Fi/Fe difference between them appears more subtle to me. Julia Roberts still seems to have a larger mouth. Hers looks too large, whereas Cameron Diaz's looks like it is pushing the limits of attractive mouth size.

Russell Brand (ENFP)
I don't know who he is, but I will say that the smile he has in your image of him looks truly grotesque. In most of the images of him I found on Google, he is not smiling. In most pictures, he seems to be affecting poses rather than looking natural. For the identification of ENFPs in the wild, it might help to have a picture of one that looks less posed -- unless we are to expect that ENFPs are typically posers.

Regina Spektor (ENFP)
She reminds me a bit of my ex-step-sister, whom I think my father told me was an ENFP.

Quentin Tarantino (ENTP)
Judging by his pictures on Google, Quentin Tarantino seems to have a deformed mouth, which makes his smiles look ugly and unusual. This makes it harder to use him as a good example of what you're describing. Do you have another male ENTP example?

Christen Dunst (ENTP)
Kirsten Dunst, not Christen, is cute and has a lovely smile. But other than in the size of the mouth, I am not seeing a significant difference between her smiles and Cameron Diaz's.

Jack Black (ESTP)
With Jack Black, I'm looking for some similarity with my brother, but I don't see it. Jack Black routinely looks much goofier and sillier than my brother does, though, I'll add, my brother does act goofy and silly with his kids.

Tila Tequila (ESTP)
With Tila Tequila, your examples are coming closer to what I'm attracted to. She's very pretty and sexy and has a lovely smile. I think I may be able to see a little more similarity to my brother in her expressions, because she doesn't look goofy like Jack Black does. Going by their pictures, it is hard to see that Tila Tequila and Jack Black would be the same type.

Edward Norton (INTJ)
I didn't recognize the name at first, but I know him as Bruce Banner in The Incredible Hulk. In some pictures, he bears a resemblance to a friend of mine who has identified himself as an INTJ on Facebook.

Ann Coulter (INTJ)
A rather ugly woman. While watching a video of her, I noticed she reminded me of Ke$ha. But Ke$ha sometimes has lovely smiles. Also, I'm not inclined to think of Ke\$ha as an INTJ, maybe more likely an ESFP like Cameron Diaz, as she reminds me a bit of both Diaz and Coulter. Notably, these two types introvert and extravert the same functions.

Janet Reno (ISTJ)
Also an ugly woman. Do you have any good-looking examples of IxTJ women? It would help me tell whether my difference in attraction to these and other women here is due to type or to your selecting pretty women for some types and not for others. I noted one picture on Google showing a similarity between Janet Reno and Bill Gates. Since my father has claimed that Gates is an INTP and even wrote an article noting similarities between Bill Gates and myself, I would be interested in what you think Bill Gates is.

Jim Parsons (INTP, yes that's right, Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory not only plays an INTP. but is one in real life.)
I don't watch The Big Bang Theory. Based on the pictures, I'm not seeing a lot of similarity with myself. He has a weird, goofy smile I don't think I have.

Jeff Goldblum (INTP)
I used to watch a science show he hosted, and I've seen him in Jurassic Park. I'm not seeing the similarity with myself. Based on your descriptions of what I should expect, he looks more like a feeling type to me, because his smile often fills up his face.

Christina Ricci (INTP)
And we finally get to the most beautiful woman in your list. Google has several pictures of her sporting a smashingly beautiful smile.

Mary-Kate Olson (INTP) (I know you guys don't like hearing this, but she really is one of our kind, I don't know how that happened either, but we are just going to have to deal with it.)
My father has identified her and her sister as INTPs. I thought she was prettier than your picture, given other pictures I've seen of the Olsen twins, but nothing is really turning up. She seems to have a wide mouth like Julia Roberts or Cameron Diaz, but it is closed in most of her pictures. She looks sort of weird.

I'll cut this short for now and finish with comments later.

#### cheese

##### Prolific Member
Who is your father, and how is he doing all this identifying? Curious.

#### TylerRDA

##### One of the wonders of the world is going down
I will be contacting the Lancet and will take all credit for this. Thank you

#### Words

##### Only 1 1-F.
Curious. I actually dislike her smile....

Judging by his pictures on Google, Quentin Tarantino seems to have a deformed mouth, which makes his smiles look ugly and unusual...

Kirsten Dunst, not Christen, is cute and has a lovely smile...

With Tila Tequila, your examples are coming closer to what I'm attracted to. She's very pretty and sexy and has a lovely smile...

A rather ugly woman...

Also an ugly woman. Do you have any good-looking examples of IxTJ women?..

And we finally get to the most beautiful woman in your list. I thought she was prettier than your picture...

She looks sort of weird...
your value statements irritates the hell out of me! argh!

I'm deeply annoyed. And yes, this is a very peculiar matter. Why am I irritated?

meaningless..useless...mundane..proud...nothing...no possibilities...grrr....

#### cheese

##### Prolific Member
Oh my god, WORDS SHOWED EMOTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#### Lobstrich

##### Prolific Member
Even though I'm against this physical typing I'm curious.
This is the literally the only picture I have of myself smiling.
I have another one where I'm kind of semi-smiling with my eyes closed. It's not uploaded anywhere though, so I can't really post it.

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
Who is your father, and how is he doing all this identifying? Curious.
Terence Duniho (1940-2002). He was a researcher and author on psychological type, and I think he often relied on his dominant Ni.

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
your value statements irritates the hell out of me! argh!

I'm deeply annoyed. And yes, this is a very peculiar matter. Why am I irritated?

meaningless..useless...mundane..proud...nothing...no possibilities...grrr....
Since I'm working with the theory that Fe smiles are more attractive than Fi smiles, all of this is relevant data. You can taken your irritation and stuff it.

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
Christina Ricci (INTP)
I began thinking about this after posting last night. I am very skeptical of the claim that she is an INTP. It is very tempting to want to identify one of my favorite actresses as my type, and that temptation initially got me to go along with your estimation of her type. But as I thought about it, I realized she is probably an NF. I have seen several movies with Christina Ricci, and I have never seen her play the same character twice. Every Christina Ricci character I've seen has been different from the others. I've seen her as Wednesday Adams, as Casper's girlfriend, as a tough little girl who grows up to become Rosie O'Donnell (horrors!), as Ichabod Crane's love interest, as a hot wild girl who needed taming, as the lesbian girlfriend of a serial killer, as a pretty sorority girl who falls for a mentally handicapped boy, as a girl bit by a werewolf, and as a drug-addled talented writer who was screwing up her life until she started taking prozac. Notably, I hated the last character mentioned, and I hated the movie, Prozac Nation. And this is in spite of my recognition of her good looks with the added bonus of nude scenes. But it is a testament to her skills as an actress. Instead of playing herself in each of her movies, she takes on a new role and becomes the character she is playing. This is what Keirsey says NFs do. He contrasts NFs with SPs, whom he says play themselves. Although I haven't seen Jeff Goldblum, whom you also identified as an INTP, in as many movies, I have seen him both as himself and in movies, and it is my impression that he does play himself. What Keirsey's constrast between how NFs and SPs act means for NTs I don't know. But it does appear that Christina Ricci has an NF acting ability in spades. So I think she is likely an NF, and so not an INTP.

#### Words

##### Only 1 1-F.
Since I'm working with the theory that Fe smiles are more attractive than Fi smiles, all of this is relevant data. You can taken your irritation and stuff it.
Yes, well, in the same way that you are examining a "theory" based on your personal attraction, I am examining my own reaction to it. What causes this strange instinct?

Perhaps:

Why is your "theory" relevant? What's the value of a theory of beauty? Why does physical appearance matter to you?

Why label things "ugly" and "pretty"? These are subjective value statements. Straying from objective orientation is straying the objective truth. You are drenching yourself in a narrow value perspective.

Certain:

Something is telling me that your activity is useless, superficial and mundane.

#### tashi

##### Active Member
Even though I'm against this physical typing I'm curious.
This is the literally the only picture I have of myself smiling.
I have another one where I'm kind of semi-smiling with my eyes closed. It's not uploaded anywhere though, so I can't really post it.
I don't think he's doing typing through pictures anymore.

#### tashi

##### Active Member
Hmmm, I don't do phototyping anymore, but if you would like me to read you, you can send me a video of yourself.
You'll have to ask him for yourself.
@Adymus: To type someone through a video, does it matter what is being said, or can it be entirely random?

#### fduniho

##### The Brain
If it's valid, it is relevant as a way to distinguish between Fe and Fi by sight.

What's the value of a theory of beauty?
That's a red herring question, since I haven't offered one here. I don't need a theory of beauty to recognize beauty.

Why does physical appearance matter to you?
It affected the sexual selection of my ancestors, and genes for it got passed down to me.

Why label things "ugly" and "pretty"?
Because I experience things as ugly and pretty.

These are subjective value statements.
Even so, my subjective value judgments are objective data about my perception of the world. What I am curious about is whether my subjective judgments reflect objective differences in people I have not previously been aware I was picking up on. If so, then my subjective value judgments would serve as a helpful guide in reading people I encounter.

Straying from objective orientation is straying the objective truth. You are drenching yourself in a narrow value perspective.
I'm all for objectivity, but I see no reason to dispense with subjectivity. It is an objective fact about myself that I have subjective experiences. I don't think it is very objective to disregard this objective fact about myself.

Certain:

Something is telling me that your activity is useless, superficial and mundane.
Yes, I suppose biases and preconceptions also count as something.

#### dark

##### Bring this savage back home.
What did you form that opinion on exactly aside from not liking what you were read as?

It would actually be ignorant not to claim that the structure is new and independent. There are no other systems or theories that are structured in the way Pod'lair is. The Jungian model is not structured to base its reads and understanding off of physiological manifestations, and it doesn't "depend" on the Jungian model in any way. Jung had his principles, Pod'lair has their own.

And lastly, religion is not the only thing that cover other principles and phenomena into its own model, just about every innovative model does that in some way.
Think what you like, but that doesn't take away the fact that Pod'Lair is much stronger and more accurate model than MBTI or JCF will ever be.
Well take my comment however you like, this was not meant to be offensive. I was being open minded in this topic be it seems you refuse to. Also it doesn't matter to me what they type me, if you want to convert it to a MBTI then you will have to accept that there are similarities. So whatever they want to call me is fine I don't care.

There is no original idea, everything has come from somewhere. And we will only enter a reductio ad absurdum if we try to continue through the thought that these are original and independent.

##### Banned
Well take my comment however you like, this was not meant to be offensive. I was being open minded in this topic be it seems you refuse to. Also it doesn't matter to me what they type me, if you want to convert it to a MBTI then you will have to accept that there are similarities. So whatever they want to call me is fine I don't care.
Labling something as Pseudo-scientific Religion before even exploring what that something is, is not open-minded, it is the exact opposite of open-mindedness. What you are doing is closed-mindedly trying to dismiss an idea, while pretending like you have actually given it a chance.
If you are going think you are an ENTP, you are really going to have to start using your Ti better than this, because you are not fooling anyone at the moment.
I do accept that there is a correlation, however I do not accept that they are the "same," and I certainly do not think you will have any understanding on where the distinctions are if you only know MBTI.
There is no original idea, everything has come from somewhere. And we will only enter a reductio ad absurdum if we try to continue through the thought that these are original and independent.
Then you have nothing to complain about.

Words: Taking observations of how stimulus is subjectively impacting Fduniho is actually very relevant data. It does not matter if it is subjective, stimulus will impact everyone subjectively, and if you can understand the nuance behind how you are being impacted, then it will tell you droves about the nature of what is impacting you and why.

Your Ti is going to want you to be completely dispassionate and not be moved by stimulus, but you need to understand that there is an importance to the capacity to be moved by something, as it is a necessary form of discerning the nature of your surroundings. Straight logic is actually very flawed when it is not accompanied by the nuance of understanding how your mood is being affected and why. You've asked about how to develop your Fe, and this is how, you have to actually listen to it when it calls out.

#### cheese

##### Prolific Member
So what does it mean that I fucking hate Fe women? I mean really, really hate them. I loathe them, I can't stand them, I hate everything about them, the way they insidiously ingratiate themselves with you but it's all so damn obvious and clumsy, the way they do it, yet people seem to fall for it like a row of dominoes in the wake of a charging bull. I hate it when they fucking touch me and try to flirt and bat their eyelashes and do all this coy horseshit. Aaaargh!

I assume this has something to do with polar Fe? It's this particular sort that especially bothers me though. Some Fe I can appreciate, especially when masterfully done, though it always leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth because it seems inauthentic. I do have admiration and respect for it though, and less admiration/respect for Fi users, more of a liking and high comfort level.

Maybe it's just american tv, I find the supposedly attractive lead women are often awfully shallow ... you know what, it might just be bad characterisation, bad writing.

When I watched Chuck (mostly stupid show that's maddeningly addictive, and the lead is a bad rip-off of Zach Braff), I liked the main blonde (yay for Aussies! - and the exported actresses often seem a little more real) and Rachel Bilson when she guest-starred. Chuck's ex-girlfriend Jill, Kristin Kreuk when she guest-starred, and a bunch of other female guest-stars who all did this thing with their eyes and mouths and infuriated me, I retched at. I assumed Rachel Bilson would be some sort of T, and I was wrong there, but I checked it with pod'lair readings and she's apparently ISFP. So that's Fi. And I think, though I'm not sure, that the blonde (Yvonne Stravhoski) either uses Fi, or doesn't have F in her top two functions. Either way, she's very inoffensive and I like her a lot.

Anyway, it could be a number of things at play - Mandy Moore (ENFP) irritates me a little in interviews but I quite like Natalie Portman even though she's supposedly INFJ. Perhaps it's just a matter of some people being fake, overly produced and self-conscious, which I wrongly attribute to Fe.

My reactions do suggest polar Fe, I guess. Something which isn't very strong in me but which I nevertheless want to master, hence my general hatred and yet admiration for masters. The latter's tied up with Ti, too - figuring out what makes it work.

#### Logic

##### Banned
Fe as auxiliary seems to give off the impression of someone who seems to be happy but isn't really happy, they are definitely holding back parts of themselves. Fi as auxiliary is somewhat similar to the EXTP's smile but, for them it seems as though they are trying to hold back a very, almost evil, part of them self.
Oops, I meant to say "Tertiary" and not "Auxiliary"

I used to watch a science show he hosted, and I've seen him in Jurassic Park. I'm not seeing the similarity with myself. Based on your descriptions of what I should expect, he looks more like a feeling type to me, because his smile often fills up his face.
This was about Jeff Goldblum. INTP actors have to develop their Fe because acting requires it so much, and also, Jeff is an older INTP so he has had more experience using it.<< I got all that from one of Adymus's previous posts

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#### Masterlord

##### Banned
I don't understand 'unaware mouth'. How can Fi types not be aware of what their mouths are doing? Can they not observe themselves (when in any situation) and know what their mouths are doing? Can they not fake smiles? Such a ridiculous assertion.

#### Artsu Tharaz

##### Resident Resident
I think the idea is not so much that the Fi doesn't know what their mouth as doing, but that their mouth is not being used as a tool to help put their message across - the mouth itself is what is unaware. I believe Adymus said that, when an Fi smiles, the smile is for themselves, whereas for Fe it's meant much more for the group.

I think that, roughly speaking, Fe's smile when they're extraverting, Fi's smile when they're introverting.

#### Nysamis

##### Redshirts: the Thai political faction that feels a
Yup, basically what Artsu said. If you could see me (ENFP) or any confirmed [something with Fi] user talk in real life, you will notice that our mouths aren't as dexterous in movement as the Fe mouths. When Fe users of any kind (including INTP and ISTP) seek to move an external dynamic, they focus on Human Dynamics. (This can be thought of as a personified dynamic, as opposed to the impersonal systemic dynamic of Te. Even non-human things can be personified, as is very clear to see in children's literature, race car drivers' devotion to their cars, and even the cosmos - Carl Sagan's Cosmos series is a great example.)

People who focus on moving The People do so by persuading them, and referring to a societal code of conduct, which is values-based. Persuasion has a more personal vibe to it, and this is why the Fe mouth is a tool to mobilize people. The Fe mouth moves a lot more gracefully due to this - style gets big points in this world.

Te on the other hand engages the system, which for the most part just cares about "is it feasible?", "what are the steps?", "give me the facts", etc. It's much more "no nonsense, cut the crap," as opposed to the team building of Fe.

Here's a perfect example of Te (which implies the Fi unaware mouth) in action. Notice how this man is much more monotone than the Fe users mentioned in the OP. He shows the "cut the useless crap" attitude in this video, which gives good insight into the Te mindset. All Te users have this rather monotone, deadpan voice to certain degrees. Keep this in mind before watching the next one, which features Fe.

And here's a good one for the Fe/Ti mindset. Notice how the interviewer (Fe user) personalizes his questions and engages with the subject. (Yes, the subject is Paula Deen, which might be scary. Do not watch if the mere sight of Paula Deen clogs your arteries or gives you a pulmonary embolism.) If that doesn't phase you, notice the warm articulation and honeyed melodic tone of voice. It should strike you very differently from the previous video.

#### passingby

##### Redshirt
Only one non-white person on the list?

In regards to your squinty eye theory, what about asians who are perma-squinty?

In regards to the smile passing the midline of the face, what about people with fat cheeks that push up regardless?

Big mouths vs. small mouths?

I think venturing to claim you can tell exactly where the F function lies in a given person, you're off your rocker. The difference between Fi and Fe, however, is consistent.

#### kibou

##### Member
@passingby I think this is the problem with American media in general...there aren't that many non-white people, and when there are, more often than not they are fitting a pre-designated role. Even when looking at minorities in media, you might notice that the skin tone of people shown in the media have a completely different skin tone on average than the general population. This is because colorism is still really prevalent in US media. It's not that the samples here are racially selective, it's that US media is racially selective in the first place, so approaching that sample neutrally will result in the same demographic patterns.

In regards to your other questions..it feels to me like you're reading the principles in a very literal physical way rather than more based on patterns. You have to see the facial tensions relative to the physiological makeup to the person. Think about with common sense body reading, if someone's arms are tightly around themselves, that might mean they are feeling "defensive", but if they're in cold weather, they're like that because they are trying to warm up. By not looking at the context (whether the physical makeup of the person or the environment they're in), you misread the body language.

If you were asking these questions about frowns and smiles, you might conclude that someone who has thin lips is "tight-lipped and uncomfortable" all the time, or think someone older with wrinkles is "unhappy all the time". If you were asking these same questions when reading people's emotional cues (in the universal system of body language outside of Pod'lair), you may conclude that it's impossible to read body language, because how do you know a smile is a big, strong smile, when someone might have a small mouth? The common sense answer is that we can tell, because a "big smile" is relative to the regular size of the person's mouth, and the regular size of that person's smile.

#### passingby

##### Redshirt
Are you a pod'lair practitioner? Maybe you or Adymus could break down those 16 smiles to illustrate exactly what you're seeing that leads you to your conclusions? I'm still skeptical.

I mean, this method is so reliable and accurate that you're able to tell somebody's type with a 1/35 second freeze frame right? That's what the claim is..

#### kibou

##### Member
I thought both Nysamis and Adymus' explanations were very good, what is it in their explanations that you feel is missing? Describing these qualities in people reading is like describing the affect of musical piece, it's easier to capture the essence by feeling than by something like "this piece uses lots of minor chords". To go with the musical metaphor, pieces that are in a Major key often have more minor chords than a Minor key piece, and vice versa. Someone might then say, "the concrete parameter of whether a key is in major or minor is by its starting and ending chord". This is actually not true, either - minor key pieces in the baroque period frequently end in major, and in the romantic period, pieces would increasingly start with a chord that isn't the "home key", or even anywhere within the parameters of the "home key" - these "foil chords" would make the music more interesting, and are intuitively felt, but the analysis becomes more complicated, and previous rule of thumb is completely broken. Despite this, classical music listeners will generally still hear this affect consistently. It's actually quite difficult to explain the criteria of why there is a natural affect toward "minor" or "major", but anyone who listens to music can feel its presence. In the same way, you have to start by working off of the understanding of a "minor key" and "major key" existing, hearing descriptions of its affects, but then starting to experience those affects yourself. The explanations here so far are quite good, and are a good starting point to start identifying these "affects". After that point, if you start opening up to experiencing it, in the same way one listens to a music piece and allows it to "speak through you", what exactly "major key" and "minor key" is, in its true essence, will start to become clearer.

#### Masterlord

##### Banned
I have no clue what you 'look' like. But hey, I'll forward you to the people that do know:
http://www.podlair.com/

You can get that done there.

#### EyeSeeCold

##### lust for life
Wow you look similar to an ESTP I knew.

#### Aramea

##### Active Member
I read this thread with interest because I have spent my entire life hating all but a handful of photos of me. I often block my face with my hands when the cameras come out. The reason is my very wooden look when captured on camera. The photo in my avatar isn't too bad, but I was not trying to smile there and it is a relatively natural look. The few smiling photos I do like were usually enhanced with alcohol. My attempts at a nice broad smile usually end up as a rictus with a disturbing stare. Nothing as cute as the Ricci photo, but more like Jim Parsons but more forced/fake.

There is video of me online from a class group project a few years ago. I look more uptight than wooden and the attempts at humor are flat. I used to be more shy but the class did laugh at the demos. A question for the Pod'Lair enthusiasts - what clues can you get from voice?

The way too peppy guy is my husband. You can see how I use him to draw me out, especially at 6:30. That section is more natural because I was not reading from a script. I am not sure I could have done a project like this without his help.

#### cheese

##### Prolific Member
I didn't find your husband in any way too peppy. o.o He seems like an upbeat but totally normal person. I didn't think you were uptight either, just bored and really no-nonsense.

#### elanor

##### Redshirt
Wow you look similar to an ESTP I knew.
lol... just the opposite XD

#### Masterlord

##### Banned
Let me get this straight. A person with a noticeable eye flap is an extravert and one that lacks it is an introvert? @ The guy who asked the Asian Introvert/Extravert differentiation.

She's Asian but she's an introvert because she lacks the flap.

Same goes for Bruce Lee.

And this guy must be an extravert because he has a noticeable flap.

Surprise! A white guy without noticeable eye flap. Introvert, huh?

Extravert.

So, is this pod'lair's logic? Does this apply to Asians only? It's a quite consistent pattern when compared to the listings the OP has...except for Jeff Bridges, he has squinty eyes.

#### BigApplePi

##### Banned
Excuse me. I am visually challenged. What is an "eye flap"? ... Maybe an ambivert with one flappy eye and the other flapless? They all look the same to me except for the last one who looks kinda tall.

#### Masterlord

##### Banned
Excuse me. English isn't my first language. I meant the eyelid. Prominent eyelid, big, bulging eyes = Extravert is what I was getting at. Sorry.

#### Fukyo

##### blurb blurb
Static physical features don't play into it as as far as I know.

#### Masterlord

##### Banned
Static physical features don't play into it as as far as I know.
I believe they've changed their stance on that. How else can they do reads with pictures only? There are no cues.