INTJs are...

[naberus]

Which of these do you think describes the INTJ the best?
Or do you have other ideas?

[FacetiousPersona]

Pragmatic.

[Red Mage]

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around "canadete." You people ARE evil.

[Ermine]

How about as practical, resourceful, and sharp as a pocket knife?

[Anling]

I think mastermind is a good description for the type. They can help me plot world domination anytime.

*sigh* Too bad I could not vote for the one-dimensional evil incarnate option. That would have been more amusing. Though, from the perspective of evil incarnate, they could see themselves as the saviors of mankind.

[Seducer of the Homeless]

All I know is i practically worship Hannibal Lecter...........

i don't find him evil at all

[Kianara]

*raises hand*

I see myself more as an unpredictable, multi-dimentional face of evil that will save mankind.

Just saying.

[didyouknow]

Nice one, Kia.

I find INTJ's great companions capable of intellectual discussions (as long as you can let them think they're right). However, when stressed, they can get bossy, stubborn and just a little self-righteous. Not sure if this is right or not, just talking from experience.

[Kianara]

Thank you, thank you.

I want to add that while yes, INTJs are always right in their own minds unless proven beyond all doubt, we also don't generally get attached to our positions. We know that if someone disagrees with us, that they're disagreeing with our idea and don't take it personally. Also, INTJs are both pragmatic and extremely self-confident. In a debate/discussion, if an INTJ is more pragmatic than prideful (which comes with the self confidence) we are able to concede that we're wrong if the other person can present evidence that can convince us.

Just wanted to point out that we're (generally) not so blind that we will stand on a lost cause long after it's floated out to sea.

[Kidege]

Originally Posted by Ermine

How about as practical, resourceful, and sharp as a pocket knife?

Only not as inconspicuous.

[Ermine]

Ah, but the blade is concealed in the pocketknife! I knew I chose the right simile!

[FacetiousPersona]

The INTP's rapier against the INTJ's broadsword.

[Kianara]

Originally Posted by FacetiousPersona

The INTP's rapier against the INTJ's broadsword.

Woah... Real life comparison.

Wisp (INTP) has always preferred the rapier.
I (INTJ) have always preferred the broadsword/longsword.

I remember this because we made coat of arms type things in middle school and he chose two rapiers behind his while I opted for a double edged sword.

[Kidege]

LOL

[Artifice Orisit]

I like to think of it in terms of hardware & software.

INTPs work with possibilities, theories and are focused on things like philosophy and psychology; in short we are best suited for the creation and development of software.

INTJs are far more practical and thus more focused on the operational capacity and functionality of their projects; thus they are best suited to the creation and development of hardware.

Put an INTP & INTJ together and the result will be greater than the sum of its parts.

[echoplex]

I like this distinction:

INTJs want the world to make sense

INTPs want to make sense of the world

[naberus]

I love how no one has voted saviours of mankind...I would be worried if someone did.

[Kianara]

But I AM the savior of mankind. I'm also evil incarnate. And too unpredictable to classify. And multidimentional...

Originally Posted by echoplex

I like this distinction:

INTJs want the world to make sense

INTPs want to make sense of the world

This reminds me of a part of the typelogic description of INTJs, "INTJs really want people to make sense."

I will make the world and the people in it make sense or die trying.

</not entirely serious so don't take it seriously>

But seriously. I actually really like that distinction. I'll have to ponder it for a while...

[Melkor]

Hrm..odd..

Why would you want anything to make sense?

if a thing makes snese in your mind, then surely that makes it sensible?

I accpet that not many things make sense, but once I have made sense of them in my own way, they are no longer frightening.

[Artifice Orisit]

There's making sense where something fits the currently held model (INTJ)
and
There's understanding, where the model is changed to fit the current data (INTP)

[loveofreason]

Originally Posted by echoplex

I like this distinction:

INTJs want the world to make sense

INTPs want to make sense of the world

I'll attest to this 110%


...the number of times I've seen an INTJ pushed over the edge of reason because ...'the world' (and people in it) "make no sense".

...and I'm thinking what's causing this? ...why is it happening? ....I need to understand ...


I find INTJ to be a very brittle typology, incapable of adapting and far too narrow in assertions. Sure it can create a brilliant strategy, but when the pieces prove to act independently of the plans it makes for them... when it doesn't base those plans on all the facts...

...

They just have everything back to front as far as I'm concerned. I admit to personal bias in the matter, but I have sought other opinions...

INTJs are control-freak idealists.

[didyouknow]

Originally Posted by loveofreason

They just have everything back to front as far as I'm concerned.

Interesting wording there. I was interested the other day and discovered their functions are the complete opposite of ours.

http://www.lifewatch-eap.com/images/...typechart2.jpg

They use the introverted iNtuition function to find patterns and make models in their inner worlds and extroverted Thinking function to apply these models to the outer world. Which is where their 'strategising' skills come from.

However, INTPs use the introverted Thinking to make sense of the world around us and use our extroverted iNtuition to make models based on this thinking. This is why we're better at 'architecture'.

So in a sense, we are opposites. I think it's an interesting partnership. One takes the data and makes the model (INTP) and the other can take this model, improve on it and apply it (INTJ).

[Kianara]

I realize (or assume) that none of this is personal, but I'm rather disappointed.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

...the number of times I've seen an INTJ pushed over the edge of reason because ...'the world' (and people in it) "make no sense".

I don't know any INTJs other than myself, which unfortunately limits my knowledge, but I have to say that anyone (whatever type) that allows themselves to be pushed past the edge of reason has some serious issues.

When I look around and see a part of the world (or people) that makes no sense, I don't have a mental breakdown. I look and my Introverted iNtuition kicks in, starting to think of what would make sense. I may never necessarily do anything with it, or even talk about it, but I just structure my own little world where things make sense.

Once I know how it could make sense, it no longer bothers me.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

...and I'm thinking what's causing this? ...why is it happening? ....I need to understand ...

INTJs are idea people. Anything is possible; everything is negotiable. Whatever the outer circumstances, INTJs are ever perceiving inner pattern-forms and using real-world materials to operationalize them. Others may see what is and wonder why; INTJs see what might be and say "Why not?!" ~ From the INTJ type analysis from http://www.typelogic.com/intj.html

The excerpt from TypeLogic communicates my position very well. I don't think that INTJs are the type to stand and stare at the world, heads spouting smoke, because things "don't make sense"

We like things to make sense (to us), so we'll change it (if only in our own minds) so they do.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

I find INTJ to be a very brittle typology, incapable of adapting and far too narrow in assertions.

Incapable of adapting? Really? That strikes me as a very narrow assertion.

That's like saying that INTPs are unable to just pick a position and stick with it, or that ISTJs are complete squares with no use other than to follow pre-set lines and boundaries.

I think that yes, the INTJs you have known may have had some issue with adapting and changing, but I do not think that the type as a whole is completely 'brittle' and 'narrow' in their assertions.

"Anything is possible; everything is negotiable."

INTJs are not lovers of conventionality and holding onto the steering wheel as the ship is sinking. We're not so narrowminded that we're completely unaccepting of others' viewpoints.

We may not be the most adaptable of the types, but we're also not fools that sit there, beholden to a decision once it's made. We prefer to stick with our decisions, but our pragmaticism refuses to allow us to not adapt if it proves necessary.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

Sure it can create a brilliant strategy, but when the pieces prove to act independently of the plans it makes for them... when it doesn't base those plans on all the facts...

Yeah, plans don't always go according to plan. That's life and the chaos factor.

When that happens, however, I don't sit there, gibbering like an idiot pushed past the 'edge of reason' by something not making sense.

I adapt for the best results possible.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

They just have everything back to front as far as I'm concerned. I admit to personal bias in the matter, but I have sought other opinions...

Back to front? No.
Different from you? Yes.

By your logic, my view of INTPs' "I want to understand" bit should be that it's, 'back to front.'

But I don't see it that way. I just see it as different. My eyes are not your eyes. My strengths are not your strengths.

I do see your point. Our view are complementing but opposite. You look and question reality. I think of another reality and question why it can't be. It's just the difference between our dominant functions. You have your Introverted Thinking. I have my Introverted iNtuition.

I have my J, but it doesn't mean I'm brittle and narrowminded.
You have your P, but it doesn't mean you're wishywashy and don't have your own opinions.

Originally Posted by loveofreason

INTJs are control-freak idealists.

Well that's not a narrow assertion or anything. My bad. I suppose this is where I should make a sweeping statement about INTPs (though ISTJs are easier to pick on).

As far as the idealist peg, you may have us mistaken for INFJs. They're the ones out to save the world.

I strongly agree with didyouknow's post, but don't have time at the moment to go into detail.

[loveofreason]

I think I said I was prejudiced on the matter.

But yes, I apologise for not qualifying properly. I should have said these are the observable qualities of the INTJ that I know too well. He is extreme. Quite possibly he has some compounding personality disorder that makes it extraordinarily difficult for him to be open to change and question his responsibility for his experience. By his own admission he wants to completely control the lives of others, yet he holds them responsible for what happens to him.

In truth... I am wishy washy, indecisive, don't trust my own feelings and can't bear to close the door on the possibility that something of worth is to be obtained from any given relationship.

Without these complicit traits he could never have had such a negative impact on my life, so I think I see and understand, in a limited fashion, the dynamics at work between this particular INTP and INTJ.

Paradoxically I have to become rigid, closed, inflexible and unreasonable in order to remove this person from my life. When I wrote the post it was from the grip of these shadow traits that cause me such problems, and despite knowing that, I posted anyway. The shadow self craves expression... I really don't know any way to deal with emotions except write them out... (or music therapy, which isn't an option for me at present.)

Anyway, I wanted to affirm to myself how much I hate this person, and seeing it in text removes a little of the poison from my body.

I chose the wrong place to do it.

You're quite right in pointing out that I am wrong to tar others with the same brush. My bad.

[Kianara]

Sorry for the 3 page lecture lor. ^^;

Even though I knew it wasn't personal and you were probably speaking out of experience with other INTJs, I let my Fi (which does actually exist!) out of the box and responded personally.

Admittedly, I do not know your INTJ. I only know myself and what I've read. From what I know, your INTJ seems to be on the extreme end of the spectrum. I also tend not to keep in mind that while I'm undoubtedly an INTJ, I do not fit in many of the usual INTJ molds and find some descriptions to be completely contrary to my nature.

For all my experience with INTJs (beyond myself), you could be completely right about the majority of them.

And to your open admission of 'wishy-washyness' I say that's good! Despite my best efforts, I often close off paths immediately after I determine they're not what I'm looking for. You keep them open to see if there's potential, I close them off so I can further explore the other ones open to me.

Admittedly, people are all different. The relationship between you and your INTJ friend seems to have been somewhat strained. For all that I know, this INTJ was exactly as you describe. I mistakenly took offense to what could be fact for you because I was somewhat indignant that (so it seemed to me) you were making these wide statements about INTJs in general. Part of why I like hanging out with INTPs is that they're pretty accepting and not judgemental of other types.

I can understand your sentiment and how it wasn't directed towards me or towards INTJs as a whole.

I'm still somewhat embarrassed to have responded the way I did. Silly Fi... I'll have to lock it up for a while. We're all good though Lor.

[loveofreason]

<------ see how could I am with Fe?

[Reverse Transcriptase]

lol, I'm the only one who voted "Neither because INTJs are unpredictable".
I have an INTJ brother, and I was trying to figure out if I thought of him as predictable or not. I could figure out my answer (although he certainly has predictable parts of him) so I voted unpredictable.

[Kianara]

Originally Posted by loveofreason

<------ see how could I am with Fe?

Fe? Where? I didn't think INTPs used that silly inferior function.

[bob]

My family is full of INTJ's, including my father, two siblings and a number of aunts and uncles.
I personally see INTJ's as being similar to INTP's in some respects (INTJ's seem confused, but INTP's actually are confused). INTP's can make jokes that INTJ's will se as not exactly tactless, but strange to their J mind. In an argument between the two types, the INTJ keeps thinking to themselves that they are completely demolishing the INTP with their undeniable conclusions, while the INTP is enjoying himself far too much to care.

[loveofreason]

Originally Posted by kianara

Fe? Where? I didn't think INTPs used that silly inferior function.

hahhaaha. And I totally typed 'could' instead of 'good' and never even noticed...

that's funny.

My subconscious couldn't stomach the claim.

[Oblivious]

*gives lor a furry kitty huggle* :3

[Yozuki]

Last choice - Arrogant.

[DynamicMind]

My mom is an INTJ. We are very similar in a lot of respects, but I think the main difference is that she makes decisions right on the spot and refuses to change her mind. It's really annoying...sometimes I think that we'd do better if she were my friend rather than my parent. As a parent she can force the decisions on me, which is rather frustrating to say the least. INTJ's are okay for the most part though.

[Razare]

Arrogant describes it well, I think. I'm not saying they are arrogant, but that's how it appears to everyone else. When I was like 16 to 20, I was an INTJ. Heavily into computer science with a very specific interest in ONLY that. I'd act like I was master of the universe, is kinda funny looking back on it. How was I so sure of myself then?

[mathy]

Definitely more pragmatic. Maybe arrogant at times. They almost always think they're right (they are a lot of times, but they can be very stubborn and do not budge from a position). My dad and brother both ar INTJ. Smart, the ones I know anyway, and want to apply their knowledge to something. I think INTJs make wonderful engineers. They tend to do one thing extremely well. My dad lives and breaths circuits. He spent his childhood taking things apart so he could figure out how they work. My brother is the same way about anything mechanical. It's funny, they always seem to know exactly what they want out of life. (But not me... bad seed, hah!)

We all share a similar sense of humor (although that may be attributed to growing up together). The three of us used to drive my ISFJ mom NUTS at the dinner table talking about science and space and math and other complicated things she didn't care about. Oh those were the days...