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Old 5th-November-2011, 02:57 AM   Sensi Star's time 4th-November-2011, 09:57 PM    #1
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Default Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Allegedly:

Scientists David Gann and Shui-yin Lo have discovered a new physical phase of water. Water can exist as solid crystals AT ROOM TEMP.

These crystals are found in ultra pure, dilute solutions of water.

David Gann claims he has had many people with health conditions drink an amount of this water, whose health then immediately significantly improved, including autism, arthritis, and even a cancer patient that remitted.

It seems too good to be true, however Gann seems to be very credible according to my intuition. Naturally, there is going to be a lot of whistle blowing on the web deeming this a hoax, but this is expected since the (pharmaceutical) agenda is to keep people sick and ergo dependent on drugs.

Because of the pharmaceutical bias, I can't find critiques of double helix water credible. I'd like to ascertain what all of you think of this, and your opinion of it's legitimacy.

http://www.doublehelixwater.com/
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Old 5th-November-2011, 04:23 AM   Cognisant's time 5th-November-2011, 02:23 PM    #2
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Because of the pharmaceutical bias, I can't find critiques of double helix water credible.
Meanwhile everyone will give these critiques their due consideration.

I cannot believe you wrote that.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 04:30 AM   Adaire's time 4th-November-2011, 09:30 PM    #3
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

'credible according to my intuition'

*snickers*
and how does that work?

It's total bunk.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 04:42 AM   Akuma's time 5th-November-2011, 04:42 PM    #4
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Homeopathy is mentioned.. I'm kinda sceptical.
I don't have much knowledge in chemistry, but this "structured water" seems very expensive to make if it costs over a hundred dollars for a 3 month supply. A bit fraud-ish.

And that disclaimer...

Quote:
The information contained on the website is only the opinions of Shui-yin Lo and David L.
Quote:
Nothing in this material is presented here as an effort to offer or render medical advice or opinions or otherwise engage in some type of medical practice.
Quote:
and none of the information contained herein is intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.
Anyone here knowledgeable in chemistry?
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Old 5th-November-2011, 04:45 AM   The_Journey's time 5th-November-2011, 04:45 AM    #5
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

So obvious it's a scam to get people to pay $$$.

The website is made by Flowline LLC, a blackhat SEO company

The address of the company leads to nowhere, Missouri.

It even has its own Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Double...30104330354368) page and the whole nine yards.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 04:57 AM   EyeSeeCold's time 4th-November-2011, 08:57 PM    #6
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

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Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
Meanwhile everyone will give these critiques their due consideration.

I cannot believe you wrote that.
This popped out to me too, I was like "whaa?". You should be doubting the source of the information...at least more than its critics.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 09:56 AM   Sensi Star's time 5th-November-2011, 04:56 AM    #7
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaire View Post
'credible according to my intuition'

*snickers*
and how does that work?
Are you not INTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
Meanwhile everyone will give these critiques their due consideration.

I cannot believe you wrote that.
What? No, I didn't mean the critiques shouldn't be considered. I was simply noting that not all critiques will come from unbiased sources because of 'special interests'; implied is that I don't wish to sift through it all atm. This is the whole reason I posted, to get some unbiased opinions from logical minds.

What is it INTJ-day or something? No offense though. But seriously, I admit I could have worded that better.
I'd really like to get some views from any chemists here. In the "what is" video (2/3) Gann goes into a complex chemical-dynamics explanation about how the crystals would be formed via ionic forces in dilute solutions.

The level of chemistry is beyond my knowledge, so can't refute or favor it. Though if this is all BS, then I would ask, why take the risk of giving an explanation that is false chemistry when all other chemists will disprove it. It would seem safer to withhold an explanation altogether in that case. Just playing devil's advocate here. I don't have a strong opinion as of yet.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 11:16 AM   SpaceYeti's time 5th-November-2011, 04:16 AM    #8
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Hahahaha!

Quote:
Find out why chiropractors and homeopaths the world over are now recommending Double Helix water as a natural remedy.
Let me rephrase this to accurately represent what's going on, here;

Quote:
Find out why masseuses and frauds the world over are now recommending Double Helix Water as a rube's medicine.
Chiropractors are not medical personnel, and homeopathy is total bullshit. The people who pay money for these scams don't know anything about biology or medicine, just like the people who sell them. Granted, the people who sell this shit might know something about the topic, but that knowledge has nothing to do the product, because the product is bullshit.

Let's assume, just for a moment, that this crystalline water actually does form. Why is this form not normal solid water? Why is this new "phase" of it's form not garnering world-wide interest from physicists? Because it's bullshit. Let's assume it's there anyhow. Whatever. It's irrelevant. What kind of effect might this product have on the human body? Well, since it's water, it would hydrate the human body! You know what else does that? Normal water! Hey, if someone buys into this, fine. A fool and his money. Your "electrical matrix", which is the primary aspect of the human immune system (it's not), functions better with a mysterious, undefined water crystal in your system (and it doesn't get broken down into normal water by your body heat), hey, may you live forever. Also, make sure your kids don't get immunized, because it causes autism. Also, evolution is a lie propagated by the scientific community because they're mad at God.

Oh, and the pharmaceutical bias! Because curing or effectively curing a disease of any kind totally doesn't make you famous and rich!
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Old 5th-November-2011, 11:44 AM   SpaceYeti's time 5th-November-2011, 04:44 AM    #9
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi Star View Post
ionic forces in dilute solutions
static electricity in a dilute solution. A dilute solution is something which is diluted in something else, generally water. In this case, the crystals are forming in a dilute solution? I thought this was supposed to be purely water, but then how would it build an electrostatic charge? Water is a terrible conductor. What else is in there, and why would it cause the water to crystallize instead of the solute itself?

I'm not a chemist or anything, and I could be wrong about something here, but this sounds like gibberish plus scientific jargon.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 12:02 PM   Agent Intellect's time 5th-November-2011, 07:02 AM    #10
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

I'm knowledgeable in chemistry, and I wish I had the time to point out how ridiculous this stuff sounds. Fortunately, I found someone else who has already done that: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html

I also found this about the authors of the book they're selling:

Spoiler:
Interestingly, two of the promoters, David Gann and Dr. Shiu-Yin Lo appear to have a long history of selling dubious forms of magic water. Dr. Lo was Director of Research and Development for American Technologies Group (ATG) in the 1990s. He claimed to have discovered another form of structured water with elements called “IE crystals” in it, which was marketed in the form of a detergent-free cleaning product called a “laundry ball” and also an automobile engine performance enhancer called The Force. According to one source, these products were investigated by the Oregon Department of Justice and determined to be fraudulent, and the company paid a fine and eventually closed down. Affidavits from a an independent analytical laboratory and a professor of chemistry at the University of Oregon were submitted refuting the company’s claims about IE crystals, and the DOJ concluded that these claims were not supported and not consistent with appropriate scientific practices. David Gann was the Director of Marketing for ATG.


Dr. Norm Shealy, who wrote the preface to the marketing book about Double Helix Water, is a committed proponent of Hodgepodge Holism on the human side, including spiritual and prayer healing, hormones and all manner of supplements, energy medicine, and a wide variety of unproven and quack therapies. All three of these individuals obviously have lifelong personal, and financial, commitments to bogus medical therapies.


And there is the veterinary face of Double Helix Water, Dr. Deva Khalsa. From her web site, she subscribes to any and all forms of alternative therapy grouped, for no obvious reason, under the label “holistic.” Acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal therapies, chiropractic, applied kinesiology, prolotherapy, energy medicine, hair analysis, all sorts of supplements, and of course Double Helix Water. Dr. Khalsa will even consult and prescribe these remedies by phone, which is certainly a more convenient way of assessing your pet’s needs than a bothersome in-person visit or physical exam.


Source.



Both of these sources are not associated with pharmaceutical companies.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 03:17 PM   SpaceYeti's time 5th-November-2011, 08:17 AM    #11
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

I took the time to watch the first "What is Double Helix Water" video, and I have a few things to say;

1) An ion is not a smaller part of an atom. An ion is an atom or group of atoms which has gained or lost a number of electrons.

2) By a "simple, clean water particle... highly charged.", what the hell is he talking about? A water particle is just a particle of water. It's not like particles get dirty. Dirt is when different kinds of particles get mixed in with the water, like whatever particles make up dust and rocks. And highly charged? So... they add electrons, somehow, or what? "Charged" in what way?

3) "Stable Water Cluster"? It's a "fundamental phase of water" and water gets there not by temperature, but by pressure? Well, with increased pressure, the freezing point of water increases gradually, but you have exert a lot of pressure to make it freeze significantly earlier than under typical pressures. Either way, it's still solid water, or "ice", not some other state entirely. I mean, the state under which an element is solid is called "solid". If something's solid, it's "a solid". If there's some other pseudo-solid state that was hitherto unknown of, why is the entire physics community not putting all of their resources into figuring this mystery out? Because it's no mystery, I'm pretty sure.

4) "Ultra-pure water". What is this? Clean water? Water without anything else in it, not even a solute? How is something purer than pure such that it's "ultra-pure"?

5) Why can't he pick up a dictionary and simply tell someone the definition for "particle"?

6) That "calculating" spiel... he got that information from his ass, as it didn't explain shit. You have to know about the formation of these before you calculate their formation!

7) He doesn't have digestive and nervous systems, he has only one of each, and what was with the "sorta" under his breath? He only "sorta" has a digestive and nervous system, as though they're not fully formed or functional?

8) He goes down the hierarchy of bodily systems, sure, but once he gets to sub-atomic particles... no, an ion is not part of an atom, it's a kind of atom, with extra or missing electrons... which is actually really common. Think "static charge".

9) When you calculate something, you need to come up with a number?! Really?! I thought you calculated stuff to come up with cheese!

10) A body doesn't function as a body, but as trillions of cells? Well... it actually does both. All the cells of a body, well, they make a body.

11) Sodium chloride does not "come apart" in water! The salt crystals may break into smaller bits, but this mixture is not a "chemical" mixture. If the sodium and chloride came aprt, it would produce sodium, an alkali metal, and chloride, which is a chlorine ion missing a single electron... so, you know, chlorine. Now the human body uses chloride to counter acidity, but pure sodium in water is very reactive, causing heat and, if there's a large chunk, explosive force. No, sodium chloride stays the whole sodium chloride compound the entire time, having totally different properties from sodium or chloride on their own. However, if you sundered the molecule, the two chemicals would be ions. chloride negative and sodium positive, hence their fitting together.

12) http://www.ami.ac.uk/courses/topics/0184_dp/index.html Water fails at dielectric strength. It's a dielectric weakling. And if it did have dielectric, so what? We could turn it into a magnet or something. "What is this?"... It's water.

13) So he can calculate what happens when you dilute salt in water? Well, the solution becomes denser, and so things float better in it, but that's about all I'm aware of.

My adobe flash player crashed, so I'm done. It's patently obvious this is a load of shit, sold to ignorant masses because they desire a maricle cure and he claims to have it. He's an asshole, a liar, and a cheat.
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Old 5th-November-2011, 05:09 PM   Seally's time 6th-November-2011, 12:09 AM    #12
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sensi Star View Post
It seems too good to be true, however Gann seems to be very credible according to my intuition.
My 'intuition' says otherwise.
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Old 6th-November-2011, 01:57 AM   Sensi Star's time 5th-November-2011, 08:57 PM    #13
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Debunked. This subject was brought up by an otherwise reputable family friend, so I had to look into it. After probing deeper learned this guy is involved in a baloney pyramid schemes (Monavie lol). It's a shame how greed can disarm one's logical boundaries, b/c this guy is an electrical engineer. He's out of work and financially desperate, so that might explain it.
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Old 6th-November-2011, 08:46 AM   Sema's time 6th-November-2011, 08:46 AM    #14
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

This is obviously an hoax.
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Old 6th-November-2011, 09:38 AM   SpaceYeti's time 6th-November-2011, 02:39 AM    #15
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

I'm not sure it counts as a hoax if it's more than an innocent joke. These people are lying in order to part money from it's fools.
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Old 6th-November-2011, 01:40 PM   EditorOne's time 6th-November-2011, 08:41 AM    #16
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Another form of the snake oil salesman peddling a miracle cure with a lot of pseudoscientific bafflegab or, as noted, a hoax. But people really do fall for stuff as childish as this.

Water that turns to crystal at room temperature: Ice Nine?

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Old 11th-March-2012, 07:27 AM   man-zoro's time 11th-March-2012, 01:27 AM    #17
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Unhappy Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

What a Stupid blindsided moron !
If the stuff works, then it works
Don't bash it until you've taken it for
a few months and feel like 10 years younger
jerk !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 11th-March-2012, 10:28 PM   SpaceYeti's time 11th-March-2012, 03:28 PM    #18
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

So buy the snake oil, then say it doesn't work?

I'm sorry, but this crap is obviously a ploy to separate fools from their money. There is no explanation to how it works in any medical or colloquially meaningful way, and there's no reason to presume it could somehow heal or reduce so many totally unrelated conditions. It's a hoax plain and simple, being perpetuated by a man who's known for such hoaxes. Spend money on it if you want, but it's bullshit.
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Old 12th-March-2012, 01:06 AM   Vrecknidj's time 11th-March-2012, 08:06 PM    #19
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

I enjoyed the disclaimer at the bottom of their front page.

"Double Helix Water® does not endorse claims or have scientific proof that Stable Water Clusters are effective in the cure, mitigation, treatment or prevention of disease. Stable Water Clusters have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. They are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease."
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Old 12th-March-2012, 01:07 AM   Vrecknidj's time 11th-March-2012, 08:07 PM    #20
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by man-zoro View Post
What a Stupid blindsided moron !
If the stuff works, then it works
Don't bash it until you've taken it for
a few months and feel like 10 years younger
jerk !!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is your first post on our forum?

And a hearty hello to you too.
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Old 12th-March-2012, 01:31 AM   Kuu's time 11th-March-2012, 07:31 PM    #21
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

You idiots. Of course it works, you just need to focus the electrical potentials with the hyper-charged monopole magnets that you have to stick up your ass. Of course they can't put that on their website because then the pharmaceutical companies would steal their product. But for a small fee you too can know the secrets to this revolutionary healing technique! I can send you a free pair of magnets to try out, but once they run out of magnetism after a couple of months you'll have to pay for replacements. Don't worry! If you buy a 3 year supply up-front, you'll only have to pay 30% the regular fee! Call now!
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Old 22nd-March-2012, 05:01 PM   walfin's time 23rd-March-2012, 01:01 AM    #22
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by man-zoro View Post
What a Stupid blindsided moron !
If the stuff works, then it works
Don't bash it until you've taken it for
a few months and feel like 10 years younger
jerk !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wonder if this chap's got shares in the bogus company?
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Old 5th-April-2012, 01:18 PM   higs's time 5th-April-2012, 01:18 PM    #23
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)


*revives thread because she wants to state her opinion and doesn't care if its been resolved allready or if she's even contributing anything new.*

1:Looks like homeopathy, which is NOT a science, or maybe a "science" of the placebo effect if you want hahaha.

2:The site asks you to buy it immediately, obviously a money scheme.

3:Seriously???? A new form of water??? Oh thank God!!! This must be why people are mortal!! We've been drinking water in it's liquid form for ages, not realising this entire time we should have been eating crystals!!! Stupid Human race *face-palms self*
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Old 6th-April-2012, 10:23 PM   physchem's time 6th-April-2012, 11:24 PM    #24
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Default Re: Double Helix Water (biological miracle or hoax?)

No comment...
Although it doesn't surprise me, hoax is a lifestyle for so many...
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