INTP Forum  

Go Back   INTP Forum > The Arts and Entertainment > Movies, Theatre & Television

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th-May-2014, 09:29 PM   #101
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
I understand how the motherhood argument is offensive though, but I'm convinced that most mothers are more likely to be irrational about protecting their children than fathers. Which isn't to say that many fathers can't be irrational about such topics, or that mothers can't be rational. Do you disagree with that?
I think there are likely tendencies and you're gonna get a "mama bear" response from many moms... but you specifically asked ME if *I* could be rational simply because I happen to be a woman....

...and yes, I think I could.

But I know other women who are more likely to do what Caitlyn did.

I would still look at it as a decision based all on heart but not very sensible because it's likely going to fail. If you love your children, figure out a better plan. (I grew up with a mom who was all-heart, little brain, and it would frustrate me so badly, so that doesn't help either.)
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 01:09 AM   #102
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
I would still look at it as a decision based all on heart but not very sensible because it's likely going to fail. If you love your children, figure out a better plan. (I grew up with a mom who was all-heart, little brain, and it would frustrate me so badly, so that doesn't help either.)
I'm still entertaining the possibility that it did not fail. Jamie is yet to act and clearly has a future in the plot development, as does Breanne. Something about Breanne tells me she is the one of the few who might overlook his history of incest and betrayal...

I'm also entertaining the possibility that she (Catelyn) knew Robb had no chance, she knew that the undead were real (thanks to Ned); Ned lived, killed, and died in denial that the undead were real (just like the whole world and dragons).
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 02:00 AM   #103
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
macossafari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Oberyn gonna be gettin his hands dirty? Who will Cersei pick? The mountain? She can't pick Jamie. Oberon gets to buddy Tyrion if he wins, Tyrion is smart, Tyrion knows the lannisters, they both hate them except Tyrion likes Jamie. Tyrion+Oberon=trouble for Tywin. Oberon and Tyrion have overlapping philosophies, Tyrions right hand Fits in perfect as well. Tyrion is sick of getting bullied. He's going to be laying claims if he survives this.

Who will Cersei pick? It'd be cool if she picked Tyrions right hand. But the mountain seems more likely. Oberon wins if it's the mountain tho.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 05:40 AM   #104
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base groove View Post
I'm still entertaining the possibility that it did not fail. Jamie is yet to act and clearly has a future in the plot development, as does Breanne. Something about Breanne tells me she is the one of the few who might overlook his history of incest and betrayal...
Well, Caitlyn was thinking "trade Jaime for my two daughters." so that's what I'm referring to, I guess.

But Jaime himself has stopped being just 'someone to exchange" and actually someone acting under his own volition. Even with caitlyn gone, he has taken active part in protecting the stark girls to what little degree he could. This is not the Jaime that was in that cage back in Robb's camp, with the false bravado and killing his own cousin to escape. His journey with Brienne and his maiming changed him, made him a vulnerable human being again, and Brienne brought out the best in him. She realized he was more than just "Kingslayer" when he finally shared with her what he did for the city (why he killed the mad King) and started treating Jaime as the man he could become (the man who was willing to bear years of shame in order to save a city of people), not the man he had been acting like or the man he was with Cersei.

The guy who sent someone flying "in the name of love" in S1E1 is not the same man that exists today.

I am not sure if Caitlyn was aware of all that, but she did ask a son of the family who murdered her husband to have her daughters released (a risky request)... and now he has found enough honor to protect them as best he can.

@Cherry: Isn't it clear? My guess is that Tyrion is going to pick Jaime. I didn't read the book, but it's the one way he can dick over his father's plan. If a member of the royal family does trial by combat, a King's Guard has to defend him. That would be Jaime.

Jaime had promised to quit the Guard when Tyrion pleaded guilty and got sentenced to the Wall, but Tyrion didn't do that; instead, Tyrion changed the plan. If Tyrion asks Jaime to champion him, he will; they are brothers, Jaime told Tyrion he could trust him, and he knows Tyrion wanted him as champion way back in the Vale. They are both also spiritual kin: Both saved King's Landing in their time, and both have suffered nothing but abuse from the people of King's Landing for their heroic sacrifices. It binds them. They are the most virtuous in the remaining Lannister clan.

Tywin is screwed. If Jamie champions Tyrion, either they both live or both die. If both die, Tywin gets no heir to House Lannister and the family name dies. If both live, Jaime is no longer obligated to quit the Guard, and Tyrion is free to do as he pleases and Tywin has to suffer the political fallout. The only heir he'll get is if he makes Tyrion to be the new Lord Lannister. In fact, it's in his best interest to send Tyrion away from King's Landing ASAP. Tywin has been completely blindsided. It's quite lovely.

Tyrion basically said, "fuck family" by going for broke; the only family he has anymore is Jaime. And I think Jaime's fed up with dad and sis as well.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 06:30 AM   #105
Adaire
Dancing through the Void.
 
Adaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,320
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

I don't think Tyrion would want to get his brother killed. Considering the loss of Jaime's hand, it would be suicide for both of them; especially against someone like the Mountain. Bronn would make more sense, unless he's finally betrayed Tyrion too (maybe he'd even champion for Cersei). It's strange that he never showed up in the episode.
Adaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:59 AM   #106
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
macossafari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Bronn wont betray shit, but I Cersei/Tywin has got him out of the way for the trial, he presents an obvious opportunity for Tyrion to win the trial by combat, that and I doubt neither Tyrion or Bronn himself wants a fight with the mountain because if he doesn't die there on the spot, which is likely, then he might be disposed of later. Oberons position on the other hand is such that he neednt fear retribution for standing up for Tyrion. His behavior during the trial and his prior interactions with Tyrion point towards it as well.

Plus his style of fighting is one that may be good for the mountain. He fights through agility not strength, this is good because you can't beat the mountain when it comes to traditional fighting, he's too big and strong. Bronn is smart but he's not THAT agile and he can't run around like he did in the veil in front of Tywin and all the others. In short Tyrion is not about to throw away one of the very few who have proven loyal to him throughout and has always treated with him with the same respect he'd give any decent man.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 04:11 PM   #107
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Did either of you guys read the books? I didn't. Just curious.

I don't disagree with your practical logic -- if he just wants to win the fight, he might do better to pick someone else. I'm arguing more from narrative and thematic logic, as a writer. Picking Jaime or having Jaime volunteer despite it being suicide (because Tyrion is his brother, and Jaime is loyal to Tyrion and sees him as being railroaded) fits with the foreshadowing from Season 1 and the character arcs of each brother and how everything in the Lannister family has been slowly building to a head. (But hey, Martin's blown narrative expectations before.)

I'm also arguing from the rule I found that a member of the royal family must be defended by someone in the King's Guard. I don't think Oberyn qualifies, if that rule is correct and Tyrion is considered "royal."
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 04:16 PM   #108
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Nope I have not read the books. My brother has and I've asked him a little about them, not about stuff that hasn't happened in the series already though.

Also, I'm not in any way certain that what I predict is what will happen, but it seems the most likely outcome. Since people don't and probs won't know who actually killed Geoffrey Tyrion and Oberyn may even approach the Tyrells following the scenario I proposed, or so I should think. Things really are building up for hitting the fan now

Man Tyrions speech got me the goosebumps, and Stannis (a fav character of mine, love the guy) is now back in the game. Fucken yeah. That and littlefingers nice little revelation, mhm yeah.

It helps that I just rewatched the first season, perhaps I should rewatch the second as well. Seeing the first one again really got me a better grasp of what's going on in the series.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 04:43 PM   #109
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

You like Stannis? What do you see in him?

Spoiler:
God, I hate that guy. He's a complete waste. He walks around thinking he has a right to the throne just because he happens to be Robert's brother, but he's done nothing to earn it. He assassinated his brother via dark magic and is in bed with dark forces that have burned members of his family and countryment as sacrifices. He was taking blood for dark magic from one of his own blood kin, despite the fact his only claim to the throne was on the basis of blood.

His only attempts to win battles were failures. Robb majorly outclassed him.

He's got too much pride to ask for help. He was going to execute one of his most loyal vassals for speaking his mind. Now he can't even ask the bank for a loan or make an actual case for himself, and Davos (the guy he was gonna execute) did it for him.

He has no sense of humor and never smiles.

He doesn't deserve to be king. He doesn't even deserve to be a lord.


I've heard he's more noble / palatable in the book.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 07:07 PM   #110
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Basically he's fun and entertaining. Sure he is a dick ISTJ at heart but meh he be fucken cool.

Also: in the preview of the newest season we saw Oberyn fighting, it has to happen at some point.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 07:14 PM   #111
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Tywin - ENTJ
Daenerys - ISFJ
Hound - ISTP
Mountain - ESFP
The Red Woman - ENFJ

Y or N?
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 07:46 PM   #112
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
Basically he's fun and entertaining.
Entertaining?

A rock would be more entertaining.... especially if I threw it through Tywin's bedroom window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
Also: in the preview of the newest season we saw Oberyn fighting, it has to happen at some point.
What I heard through the grapevine is that the last few episodes are a wild ride. So he could fight at any time, I guess.

-----------

I don't care much about typing the characters, although I can see ETJ for Tywin and ENFJ for the red woman.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:23 PM   #113
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
Entertaining?

A rock would be more entertaining.... especially if I threw it through Tywin's bedroom window.



What I heard through the grapevine is that the last few episodes are a wild ride. So he could fight at any time, I guess.

-----------

I don't care much about typing the characters, although I can see ETJ for Tywin and ENFJ for the red woman.
Okay I realize you don't care so much but Tywin is an ISTJ not an ETJ. Shows 0 signs of inferior or aux sensing. Is very easily irritated however, consistently short with people and to the point, does not thrive at meetings but gets them over with. On the other hand he was quite harmonious on his own when it was just him and Arya hanging out.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:40 PM   #114
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
Okay I realize you don't care so much but Tywin is an ISTJ not an ETJ. Shows 0 signs of inferior or aux sensing. Is very easily irritated however, consistently short with people and to the point, does not thrive at meetings but gets them over with. On the other hand he was quite harmonious on his own when it was just him and Arya hanging out.
You're seriously thinking Stannis and Tywin are the same type?

Just look at how each approaches the issue of control, and how simple/complex the two thought processes are despite each having Te as their most dominant Judging function.

Stannis: Obey me because I am king by blood -- so you should obey me, and if you don't, I'll ... just stand here and brood because you're not playing by the rules. Nor will I beg or negotiate. Damn you all! (And I'll let some witch fuck me even though I'm married, so that I can be King by black magic. Because then I don't actually have to have a plan or do anything plotty, and because I deserve it.)

Tywin: *writes lots of letters, talks to a lot of people, manipulates people to do what he wants even when they don't know he's plotting, leaves people with no options but what he wants them to have, totally aware of everything that is going on, totally in control of what is going on*

Yeah. Good luck with that.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:42 PM   #115
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

E-N-T-J
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:44 PM   #116
Fukyo
blurb blurb
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,325
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

I heard that Stannis is a lot more complex of a character in books. The show is obviously taking some liberties with how the characters are portrayed. Cersei, for instance is supposedly far more vile and less sympathetic in the books.

Tyrion's champion

Spoiler:
in the books is Oberyn and Cersei's is the Mountain. Oberyn gets killed but manages to mortally poison his opponent.
__________________
wake up sheeple
Fukyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:46 PM   #117
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Ugh I clicked the spoiler instantly without thinking about what I was doing. At least I clicked it away before I saw the conclusion.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:54 PM   #118
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Jesus, Fukyo, I hope that's not the actual answer -- it's like throwing a freaking hand grenade with napalm and mustard gas into the middle of the forum. why art thou so cruelly tempting my self-control?

".... can't .... read.... must.... crawl away...."




PS. Cersei, MORE vile and LESS sympathetic? Dear god.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th-May-2014, 09:58 PM   #119
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
Jesus, Fukyo, I hope that's not the actual answer -- it's like throwing a freaking hand grenade with napalm and mustard gas into the middle of the forum. why art thou so cruelly tempting my self-control?

".... can't .... read.... must.... crawl away...."




PS. Cersei, MORE vile and LESS sympathetic? Dear god.
Indeed.

And yeah Fukyo, what the fuck, would you offer a poisoned hot dog to a starving man? I'm totally blaming you and not my own stupidity for this shit >:O
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 01:51 AM   #120
Hadoblado
Looker at dicker
 
Hadoblado's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,259
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukyo View Post
I heard that Stannis is a lot more complex of a character in books. The show is obviously taking some liberties with how the characters are portrayed. Cersei, for instance is supposedly far more vile and less sympathetic in the books.

Tyrion's champion

Spoiler:
DUMBLEDORE DIES AT THE END
That's the cruelest thing I've ever seen.
__________________
Spoiler:

"Fire is magic, friendship is mere technology" ~ Void of Space

"The advantages of being very precise even while not being very accurate" ~ Genitive Of Of

"Don't you just love punctuating questions as you would statements in order to soft-claim certainty that elicits agreement" ~ Taint of Volition

Unprincipled exceptions rule everything around me" ~ Content of Media
Hadoblado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 02:01 AM   #121
Reluctantly
Baℕℕed
 
Reluctantly's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,679
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base groove View Post
Tywin - ENTJ
Daenerys - ISFJ
Hound - ISTP
The Red Woman - ENFJ

Y or N?
Tywin - He's intelligent, generally mature (compared to most the characters on the show anyway), ruminating (intuition preference), calm - pretty much always thinks before acting (he doesn't typically 'react', suggesting an innate valuation of introversion), and has no problem using relationships as tools to reach an end; his idea of family does not involve an appreciation for love and caring (weak feeling), but keeping the family strong so that they can stay powerful and protect each other (thinking preference). So even though I don't agree on the theoretical merits of MBTI as it relates to Jung and introverts, these traits do pretty much parallel my understanding of Jung's Psychological Types to match what is commonly understood as INTJ.

Daenerys - ISFJ or INFP. She's a lot more ISFJ now than at the beginning of the show
Hound - Agree
Red Woman - Fe something anyway. ENFJ is probably about right
Reluctantly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 06:55 AM   #122
Evel
Member
 

Join Date: May 2014
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Posts: 31
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

bwahahaha, I can't believe what the person above me posted .--------.

And MEEEOOOOW, I am not gonna watch season 4 til they have uploaded the whole thing on one of those pirate sites u.u'

I can't wait a week just to watch one episode!
Evel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 07:01 AM   #123
Adaire
Dancing through the Void.
 
Adaire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,320
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

I've only read the first half of the first book, Jen, and that was long ago.
Adaire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 07:35 AM   #124
Hadoblado
Looker at dicker
 
Hadoblado's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,259
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evel View Post
bwahahaha, I can't believe what the person above me posted .--------.
What in particular about it gives you the giggles?
__________________
Spoiler:

"Fire is magic, friendship is mere technology" ~ Void of Space

"The advantages of being very precise even while not being very accurate" ~ Genitive Of Of

"Don't you just love punctuating questions as you would statements in order to soft-claim certainty that elicits agreement" ~ Taint of Volition

Unprincipled exceptions rule everything around me" ~ Content of Media
Hadoblado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 09:39 AM   #125
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
macossafari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reluctantly View Post
Tywin - He's intelligent, generally mature (compared to most the characters on the show anyway), ruminating (intuition preference), calm - pretty much always thinks before acting (he doesn't typically 'react', suggesting an innate valuation of introversion), and has no problem using relationships as tools to reach an end; his idea of family does not involve an appreciation for love and caring (weak feeling), but keeping the family strong so that they can stay powerful and protect each other (thinking preference). So even though I don't agree on the theoretical merits of MBTI as it relates to Jung and introverts, these traits do pretty much parallel my understanding of Jung's Psychological Types to match what is commonly understood as INTJ.

Daenerys - ISFJ or INFP. She's a lot more ISFJ now than at the beginning of the show
Hound - Agree
Red Woman - Fe something anyway. ENFJ is probably about right
What signs of intuition do you see in Tywin? He's concrete, uses plain language, displays a natural mastery of facts and no signs of inferior sensing.

Daenerys is interesting. She doesn't extrovert feeling though (not even in the scenes where shes relaxing) and she doesnt show any signs of using lots of Si. INTJ or INFP IMO, probs INFP. Lead to liberate, she's about to get her Fi tested in either case fosho.

Why would you consider her an ISFJ?
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 02:40 PM   #126
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Daenerys is totally ISFJ. I can't believe you have overlooked her preference for Fe or would mistake it for Te at all. Think about how she expects everybody around her to adhere to a common morality, with the crucifixions, plus her general reluctance to obey the wishes of the one man who begged to have his ancestors properly buried.... the reluctance stems from Fe... she wants this feeling to be spread around, she wants the fear and respect... she doesn't care about one person and any time it seems like she does it's an act. Total Fe.

think about the times in the desert when she was desperate and her Khalessar was nearly extinguished .. and she constantly acts as though she is still in charge, Khaleesi... by right... because she married a man who is now dead, but the Dothraki will follow her because she is their Khaleesi... this is Fe.

Any time there is dissent or disobedience or any kind of crisis she thinks she can get her way by spouting off her titles and the things that are owed to her... "I am the mother of dragons" .. "I am Kahleesi the wife of Drogo.. and you will do as I command" .... "well you can tell _____ that I speak on behalf of ____ and you will do as I command"... just all the fucking time with her.

If you make the case that Stannis is Si-dominant then I don't see how you can turn around and deny the same thing about Daenerys.

The idea that she invested so much into the 'potential' of her dragons and expected others to see the same potential... it's Ne. Everything about her quest is based on "potential". So ... wait a second, doesn't this indicate a preference for Ne? ... I say no. It's totally inferior Ne. She sometimes acts like this potential is a real thing and she even acts (in earlier episodes) like they (the Ne perceptions of potential) are already in existence. To me, this totally indicates a preference for the subjective.

She also acts as though her judgements (Fe) and perceptions (Ne) have broad applicability "how can I rule the 7 kingdoms if I can't even control the lands I've taken?" ... she takes it as a given that other people will see things the same way she does. She takes offense when they don't. She is not really open minded to the perspectives of others. She is the embodiment of SF psyche (with Fe) in every way.

So we have an SF-type with Fe and Ne. ISFJ.

Arguments for auxiliary Ni in Tywin are being evasive at the moment but they will surface soon enough.
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 03:30 PM   #127
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

^^ Yeah, I follow all that logic, and one could make a case for complementary Ti tert. Literalizing potential is also something I see in ISFJs I know, especially the religious ones. They can't really deal with it as just a "possibility" or with nuance, they typically have to accept it as real and as a given rather than weighting it properly; the lack of certainty that treating it with more nuance would bring is something that creates anxiety.

Anyway, why is Evel giggling? Is that you, Ramsay? Let us flay his/her little finger and find out.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 04:38 PM   #128
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base groove View Post
Daenerys is totally ISFJ. I can't believe you have overlooked her preference for Fe or would mistake it for Te at all. Think about how she expects everybody around her to adhere to a common morality, with the crucifixions, plus her general reluctance to obey the wishes of the one man who begged to have his ancestors properly buried.... the reluctance stems from Fe... she wants this feeling to be spread around, she wants the fear and respect... she doesn't care about one person and any time it seems like she does it's an act. Total Fe.

think about the times in the desert when she was desperate and her Khalessar was nearly extinguished .. and she constantly acts as though she is still in charge, Khaleesi... by right... because she married a man who is now dead, but the Dothraki will follow her because she is their Khaleesi... this is Fe.

Any time there is dissent or disobedience or any kind of crisis she thinks she can get her way by spouting off her titles and the things that are owed to her... "I am the mother of dragons" .. "I am Kahleesi the wife of Drogo.. and you will do as I command" .... "well you can tell _____ that I speak on behalf of ____ and you will do as I command"... just all the fucking time with her.

If you make the case that Stannis is Si-dominant then I don't see how you can turn around and deny the same thing about Daenerys.

The idea that she invested so much into the 'potential' of her dragons and expected others to see the same potential... it's Ne. Everything about her quest is based on "potential". So ... wait a second, doesn't this indicate a preference for Ne? ... I say no. It's totally inferior Ne. She sometimes acts like this potential is a real thing and she even acts (in earlier episodes) like they (the Ne perceptions of potential) are already in existence. To me, this totally indicates a preference for the subjective.

She also acts as though her judgements (Fe) and perceptions (Ne) have broad applicability "how can I rule the 7 kingdoms if I can't even control the lands I've taken?" ... she takes it as a given that other people will see things the same way she does. She takes offense when they don't. She is not really open minded to the perspectives of others. She is the embodiment of SF psyche (with Fe) in every way.

So we have an SF-type with Fe and Ne. ISFJ.

Arguments for auxiliary Ni in Tywin are being evasive at the moment but they will surface soon enough.
You have to consider the fact that she is very young and knows little about the world, she is naive. Her ego having been suppressed until she was made Khaleesi, it is not strange that when she finally gets to be someone she really sees herself as that someone and expects everyone else too, because before she was nothing. She dislikes cruelty, but as of now still values justice and ideals over it. She is totally not an act, and does care for every person, seeing any individual as intrinsically valuable. Her narrowmindedness and naive sense of entitlement entitlement is caused by her age and background. Not having properly developed functions, she is quick to turn to her tertiary and inferior whenever things go bad (Si+Te), her strength lies in her unwavering determination and ambition (Fi+Ne).

Never does she display much interest in things that concern Si and Fe. She is uninterested in facts and always eager to get to the point, she does not prepare herself with facts but rather relies on acting ingeniously in the moment (Ji+Ne) trusting her own plans. Despite having advisors and being young and not particularly knowledgeable about the world she is quick to dismiss whatever she does not find right. It's Ji, and clearly so.

The fact that she was reluctant to let the man bury his father speaks of Fi not Fe, Fe would've let her do so easily because Fe is flexible.

Though this goes beyond type, we see her as a different person completely. You may be right, I don't know. She just doesn't behave as an Fe user would either, her demeanor is too consequent; she displays too little overt emotion, and when she does it she does it in uncontrolled bursts. I think the ISFJ case you made only takes up the negative aspects of her personality, which I consider to be her tert and inferior.

Edit: Still, great post. Never considered ISFJ seriously in the least before.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 04:46 PM   #129
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
The fact that she was reluctant to let the man bury his father speaks of Fi not Fe, Fe would've let her do so easily because Fe is flexible.
Ummm.... she WAS flexible. I propose that Fi dom would have told him to screw off, because his dad was still on the wrong side.

There was two needs in play. He had been on the losing side that she had punished justly for their crimes (eye for eye, tooth for tooth). Yet, the son made a strong case for his father's burial; there, she wasn't necessarily honoring the father, she was honoring the son who had the courage to speak to her and stand up for his family as per their custom. And since her father had been innocent of the crime (though aligned with the wrong side and thus punished), she could honor the son without losing face.

She was balancing conflicting social needs, while trying to maintain her authority.

Remember, she also hadn't imagined that possibility ahead of time, even when her advisors suggested her "justice" might be a bit rash; the possibility wasn't real until it was in front of her face. Once it was, she could use broad logic to balance those needs and come up with a new decision that honored both her and the son; but she's not very adept at quickly understanding the ramifications of possibilities outside of either her past experience or social mores. She tends to come into things with preset notions. (Note how she entered her marriage to Draco -- she needed one of her servant girls to instruct her on how to woo her husband as an equal rather than being his physical toy. And then with that knowledge and confidence, she was able to change their relationship. But she typically needs someone else to give her the idea.)
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 04:49 PM   #130
The Gopher
President
 
The Gopher's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,201
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

ISFJ sounds right. Could be a stranggeeee INFP though.
The Gopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 04:55 PM   #131
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
Ummm.... she WAS flexible. I propose that Fi dom would have told him to screw off, because his dad was still on the wrong side.

There was two needs in play. He had been on the losing side that she had punished justly for their crimes (eye for eye, tooth for tooth). Yet, the son made a strong case for his father's burial; there, she wasn't necessarily honoring the father, she was honoring the son who had the courage to speak to her and stand up for his family as per their custom. And since her father had been innocent of the crime (though aligned with the wrong side and thus punished), she could honor the son without losing face.

She was balancing conflicting social needs, while trying to maintain her authority.

Remember, she also hadn't imagined that possibility ahead of time, even when her advisors suggested her "justice" might be a bit rash; the possibility wasn't real until it was in front of her face. Once it was, she could use broad logic to balance those needs and come up with a new decision that honored both her and the son; but she's not very adept at quickly understanding the ramifications of possibilities outside of either her past experience or social mores. She tends to come into things with preset notions. (Note how she entered her marriage to Draco -- she needed one of her servant girls to instruct her on how to woo her husband as an equal rather than being his physical toy. And then with that knowledge and confidence, she was able to change their relationship. But she typically needs someone else to give her the idea.)
She wasn't trying to maintain authority, she was struggling because her inner ideals collided with one another.

When she entered the marriage with Draco she was a kid. In the series she's maybe... what 16? In the books she's 13. A mistreated kid at that who doesn't know the world.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 04:57 PM   #132
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
She wasn't trying to maintain authority, she was struggling because her inner ideals collided with one another.
"Authority" is a key value for Daenyres.... pretty much as blatant as her white hair. The authority structure determines everyone's responsibilities and power.

Count how many times she says the word "queen" in an episode, or "rule," and how often she is focused on people playing their roles (low or high) in the authority structure.

Quote:
When she entered the marriage with Draco she was a kid. In the series she's maybe... what 16? In the books she's 13. A mistreated kid at that who doesn't know the world.
We're not talking about the books, we're talking about the TV show.

And women got married all the time before age 16 in non-modern times.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:06 PM   #133
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Ya that's why it's inferior Te, it's done bluntly and only works because of her charisma (Fi). Same with her Si, she does not gather facts, she sticks with a and goes on ahead to paint a picture, she's cunning when she does it but she tends to fail to take enough into account (common IxTP problem).

I know we are not talking about the books, I mentioned it because going by the tv-series one could easily picture her as being in her mid twenties when she's more likely a teen. The fact that it was common back then doesn't touch my point in the least.

Edit: Absolute authority can and has been employed by Fi doms pursuing their ideals in other instances. It just doesn't happen under normal circumstances.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:10 PM   #134
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
Ya that's why it's inferior Te, it's done bluntly and only works because of her charisma (Fi). Same with her Si, she does not gather facts, she sticks with a and goes on ahead to paint a picture, she's cunning when she does it but she tends to fail to take enough into account (common IxTP problem).
You think she's IxTP now?

Quote:
I know we are not talking about the books, I mentioned it because going by the tv-series one could easily picture her as being in her mid twenties when she's more likely a teen. The fact that it was common back then doesn't touch my point in the least.
Why? Based on how people were raised, they were forced to be more responsible at younger ages. And Daenyres has been groomed since BIRTH to be royal. Modern kids are basically free to fluff around until adulthood, no wonder we're so immature in comparison even into our 30's as far as taking on responsibility.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:25 PM   #135
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
You think she's IxTP now?



Why? Based on how people were raised, they were forced to be more responsible at younger ages. And Daenyres has been groomed since BIRTH to be royal. Modern kids are basically free to fluff around until adulthood, no wonder we're so immature in comparison even into our 30's as far as taking on responsibility.
Edit: Sorry my mistake, meant to write INxP.

She has been groomed to be a pretty trophy wife. A royal one yes, but not a leader and uniter of people and overturner of old orders. She lived her entire life in exile with her brother without any parents before she married Drogo.

That's another thing. She doesn't care one iota about conventions, all that matters to her is what she deems just and right.

Edit: Building on this, if she were an ISFJ she would've been ran over and turned a Doth'raki after her marriage. What she does is try to understand them while at the same time refuse to embrace their cruel nature. When her ideals and Doth'raki customs collide she follows the former, as she did when she saved the lives of the villagers which were the rightful bounty of a friggin bloodrider.

On inferior Te (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...verted-Types):

Quote:
As far as I can tell the line of reasoning goes something like this: "You are not performing your moral duty to me as a friend (Fi), and every time I have been in a positive working relationship in the past (Si) it has followed certain standards (Te), and while I hate to do this, you are threatening my right to personal identity here (Fi) and thus I must explain to you objectively and very, very bluntly how your behavior cannot be tolerated (Te)."
What she sets out to realize is a utopia where people are free to live as they please. That's classic Fi, it's got nothing to do with Si.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:35 PM   #136
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
...
That's another thing. She doesn't care one iota about conventions, all that matters to her is what she deems just and right.
Come on, Cherry -- how do you think she determined what was "just and right"?
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:42 PM   #137
Cherry Cola
Banned
 

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: stockholm
Posts: 3,899
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Tell it to me, I am not seeing what you see. Her public displays are all Ne as too. Catapulting broken shackles, the way she took command of the unsullied.
Cherry Cola is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 05:53 PM   #138
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry Cola View Post
Tell it to me, I am not seeing what you see. Her public displays are all Ne as too. Catapulting broken shackles, the way she took command of the unsullied.
Why is that Ne?
Seems pretty damned literal to me.

Now, if they were throwing jellyfish over the walls, that would be an ENTP for you.

Anyway, Season 1 was her "seasoning." She grew into her power and expectations as Khaleesi. She needed that time to grow into her role -- she was learning it, understanding the expectations on her, etc. -- and by the time that period of her life ended, she was ready for the next.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 08:14 PM   #139
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

@ Cherrry

I think her type switched somewhere between seasons. Probably that is a consequence of so many different people having input and influence (on the writing and character development).

I'll confess that for the first season or two (until the dragons were born) I had her pegged up and down as an ISFP. I believe the character has now become an ISFJ, basically, and that's how they're going to continue to write her, but she was introduced (from my perspective) as a Fi-dom.

Honestly, I was also trying to make the argument that somebody with higher Fi would allow the man his request without trouble.. but who knows. Maybe J-W is right, but that's definitely not where I was coming from.

I guess the only way to settle it is to type the actress herself or type the character in the books.

More edits:

Regarding the Ne/Si points you made, I think the same could honestly be said for Se and Ni. Either way, Si is still given to fantasy; it's not the exclusive domain of Fi or Ni.
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 08:17 PM   #140
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

The dragons were born in S1E10.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 08:44 PM   #141
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
The dragons were born in S1E10.
Nothing brings an SFJ type more into the open than having kids though. Man or woman.
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th-May-2014, 09:23 PM   #142
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base groove View Post
Nothing brings an SFJ type more into the open than having kids though. Man or woman.
After a moment's thought... yes, I'd agree with that.

(Some of them do think about it enough before having them that there's not as much shift... but it is a catalyst.)
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:02 PM   #143
Redfire
and Blood
 
Redfire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 390
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fukyo View Post
Cersei, for instance is supposedly far more vile and less sympathetic in the books.
No, she is not. And I can't remember her showing sympathy in the show at all, except when it comes to her children. And it's the same in the books.

Fukyo's spoiler is real, by the way.
Redfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:10 PM   #144
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
Fukyo's spoiler is real, by the way.
Glad I didn't read it, then.

("Fukyo? FUK YO!")


... I won't see the next episode until Monday evening. It's killing me, the wait I mean, really it is; my Sansa eyes cannot stop bleeding bitter tears...

__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:24 PM   #145
Redfire
and Blood
 
Redfire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 390
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

What a boring character. Worst Stark ever!
She also looks exactly like my sister so it makes me want to bother her.

Arya FTW
Redfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:33 PM   #146
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
What a boring character. Worst Stark ever!
She also looks exactly like my sister so it makes me want to bother her.
Oh you're such a lousy brother...

(But I suppose that's better than her being Cersie to your Jaime.)

Quote:
Arya FTW
I love Arya, but she will probably break more eggs than should sensibly be broken. That will be a hell of an omelet.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:37 PM   #147
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

I thought she was sympathetic toward Marjorie with their most recent conversation.
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:46 PM   #148
Redfire
and Blood
 
Redfire's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 390
windows_98_nt_2000firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
Oh you're such a lousy brother...

(But I suppose that's better than her being Cersie to your Jaime.)
Well, I'm not really a Targaryen, it's just an avatar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
I love Arya, but she will probably break more eggs than should sensibly be broken. That will be a hell of an omelet.
Joffrey, Cersei, Walder Frey, Meryn Trant, Tywin Lannister, the Red Woman, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Illyn Payne, the Mountain, the Hound.
Redfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 06:57 PM   #149
Jennywocky
Large tracts of fivehead
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Charn
Posts: 9,874
windows_98_nt_2000ie
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
Well, I'm not really a Targaryen, it's just an avatar.
I rarely have avatars turned on, so I wouldn't know.

Quote:
Joffrey, Cersei, Walder Frey, Meryn Trant, Tywin Lannister, the Red Woman, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, Illyn Payne, the Mountain, the Hound.
"The Mountain" alone would provide enough meat to stuff omelets for two Australian rugby teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Base groove View Post
I thought she was sympathetic toward Marjorie with their most recent conversation.
I remember that scene, but I couldn't tell whether it was sincere; she was trying to stack the deck for the trial in that episode. I'm still wondering how she got her hands on Shae.
__________________
... My toast is dark and full of terrors.
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th-May-2014, 07:02 PM   #150
Base groove
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,866
windows_xp_2003firefox
Default Re: Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
I remember that scene, but I couldn't tell whether it was sincere; she was trying to stack the deck for the trial in that episode. I'm still wondering how she got her hands on Shae.
I soooo knew it was gonna be her. lol

She never left. Boy did they make a point of glossing over that and moving on...
Base groove is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Santa Muerte Game of Thrones Giant Party Donut Movies, Theatre & Television 8 20th-April-2015 10:51 PM
Game AI Cognisant Science & Technology 5 5th-April-2014 06:01 PM
Game of Thrones Typology Lucifer van Satan Character typing - real life and fictional. 10 19th-September-2013 05:13 PM
:the game: Hayyel Gaming 4 28th-May-2013 08:39 PM
Game of Thrones duke of new york Movies, Theatre & Television 37 3rd-July-2012 04:31 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:59 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS
no new posts