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Old 30th-December-2016, 02:06 AM   #1

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Default Where did humans go wrong?

I read a book by Daniel Quinn called "Ishmael" some time before I first joined the forum. I decided to give it another read because I found it inspiring in my younger days, and I wanted to revisit his ideas.

In summary, it is stated that humans and animals lived a way of life that was harmonious for millions of years until the time of the fertile crescent. This many different ways of life before was not as much of a challenge for humans as it is purported by our modern culture, arguing that humans were the least likely creature to ever starve due to our level of adaptability to our environment.

It wasn't suggesting that our modern way of life was a problem on it's own (agriculture and consumerism, etc) , but the problem was in the way that our culture has deemed it the only way to live, and left to exponentially grow while killing off all other cultures. Also mentioned was our method of food production, which is the direct cause of our growing population.

Because I hitched into the idea, I was inspired to live a bit more sustainable (which I did a little) but more than action I've put more time in thought into it. I wondered what would a solution look like? Was it better not to look at it as a problem? What could I do to change anything? The only thing I came up with was different ways of looking at things.

I'm not meaning to advertise a book. I brought it up because I didn't want to throw all these ideas out as my own.

The title of this topic still holds, I would like to know how you perceive our culture going wrong, or if it is even wrong, or better or worse.
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Old 30th-December-2016, 03:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: Where did humans go wrong?

Humanity got it wrong, nay, they were destined to get it wrong due to our evolution. When we have all our needs met, some, but not all people become complacent. The ones that don't become complacent end up steering the complacent in a direction that is most beneficial to them.

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Old 30th-December-2016, 03:21 AM   #3
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Default Re: Where did humans go wrong?

I don't get the point.

If he (author/op) argues that advances in agriculture led to population increase then he misses the obvious fact that people had lots of offspring solely to use them as aids in the fields. In fact; the less efficient the food production technology was; the greater the need for cheap labour and inequality that was built on top of that.

The reason for population increase isn't just food surplus, it's also in the whole developmental bracket of tech, education, goals, etc.

If you look at our own western growing population, you'll see it's leveled off and will go into decline or will stabilise. We see a growing population in underdeveloped countries that are less 'consumerist', more diverse and less 'polluted' by globalisation. (I mean I'm not a fan of globalisation but undeniably the spreading of technology brings stability at the very least)

It's projected that as other countries become more socially/technologically advanced the global population will peak and decline by this century.
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Old 30th-December-2016, 03:24 AM   #4
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Default Re: Where did humans go wrong?

Tony Wright (Left in the dark) suggests the evolution of our brains went wrong, when we stopped eating raw foods full of hormones (fruits are the sex organ of plants) and cooked most of everything to a dead mush. Our minds became too dissociative and as a result our sense of self is no longer carried by the holistic principles of the right brain but has become reduced to the smaller linear principles of the left brain - a separate sense of self that sees itself lost in attachment and aversion. He does not suggest that this old problem of evolution can be fixed in a lifetime via dietary change.

Ken Wilber suggests that nothing went wrong. That we became simply more efficient at being ass-hats. We also became less selfish, not more, in our abstract essence, but the efficiency of our selfish technology is not yet undone by our efforts to integrate ourselves with more and more of reality in sustainable manner. So we are in a natural process of alternating back and forth between expansion and integration, breaking out into new dualities of struggle first and integrating ourselves within that totality harmoniously, later. First we were monkey-ness, then we split that into the duality of me-monkey and other-monkey, then we integrated that into monkey-tribe, thereby splitting monkeys into my-tribe and other-tribe, then we integrated that into monkey-nation and it was my-nation vs your nation and so on ... more and more refinement of abstract thinking and abstract perception is setting up new boundaries and conflicts.

I think both perspectives are true.

We do have serious brain damage, that makes us narrow minded and keeps us in a fight and flight mode, where all of these conflicts are perceived as absolutely serious, so we are always willing to kill for them.

The problem has of course been recognized by all religions but not understood and they have no solution, apart from prayer and meditation, which is ineffective and drugs and ecstatic rituals, which are temporary.

On the other hand the conflicts are unavoidable and correlated with very good abilities and we just get better and better but life becomes more and more complicated, so if we can't chill anymore, because of brain damage, then complications are very anxiety or anger inducing and painful.

This problem has also been recognized by religions and not surprisingly they tried to solve it and so religion became a force of conflict resolution. Many gods of individual temper and crisis were united into tribal gods, tribal gods were united into one god to rule them all. But the killing goes on in the name of god.
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Old 30th-December-2016, 07:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Where did humans go wrong?

Where did humans go wrong?
If humans haven't gone extinct yet then the haven't gone wrong yet. The reason humans started farming is because they became smart enough to understand plants and animals. If intelligence is a bad thing then humans when wrong when homo Erectus invented fire 2 million years ago. Intelligence is not the problem. What is the problem is the distribution of resources that keep us fighting each other all the time. Technology is a just a way to protect resources. People need certain things to survive. Parents raise their children to best survive. Culture is just when groups of humans are separated by geographical distance and evolves differently.

In the future, people will be unable to take advantage of each other because of Artificial Intelligence. A.I. will know everything and stop people from doing bad stuff. A.I. is jus another technology. A technology that will be global. Mostly people stop people in their community from doing bad stuff like cheating and killing. That is why we have police and government. The problem is that ass holes can corrupt the system a cheat and kill. In school, I learned allot about American history, such as the declaration of independence in 1776. Corruption is dealt with by the people. It is my thought that A.I. in the future will eliminate corruption because A.I. will create total transparency. The internet has created allot of transparency already.

People need meaning in their lives and they need resources to survive. Shcool is a good thing because reading and writing is important for humans to be able to do. Work is important because people get depressed and sad when the sit around and do nothing. The people who lived during the great depression were the ones who influenced the 60's culture. They saw what happened in the 30's and did not want that to happen again. So yes humans do fight kill and cheat each other because of resources and being in separate geographical regions. But they do so to survive. People need to work to have self-esteem. It feels good to be resourceful. The only problem is to keep society in line because of crime and corruption. War happens because different societies with different goals exist.

For people to get along in the future crime, corruption, war and poverty need to be solved. We cannot blame humans for having intelligence. We cannot blame homo Erectus for inventing fire 2 million years ago. The only solution to the problems humanity faces is a social and technological solution. People need a purpose that is why they work and play games, (in modern countries we play video games). People come to INTP forum because they need something to do. Learning stuff is fun also. A.I. will create total transparency and keep people in check. It will protect people so long as it is controlled by people who can be held accountable. The inability to hold people accountable is why people get away with such awful things in this world. And we can't solve humanity's problems by just fighting. Decisions need to be made on what is and is not acceptable. Our global future civilization will be based on that. Acceptable and unacceptable.
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