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Old 20th-December-2016, 04:24 AM   #1
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Default Amateur question regarding enneagram

Unhealthy 8 = deviate towards 5
Type 5's growth = deviate towards 8
Unhealthy 5 = deviate towards 7
Type 7's growth = deviate towards 5

etc.

Wouldn't it be rather easy for people to experience all types? Then, there won't really be a "type", just an endless cycle. Pardon my ignorance, not apt in enneagram. Will appreciate all help rendered.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 04:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

Well, yeah we have elements of all 9 types, but the integration/disintegration lines are a core element of the model.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 05:01 AM   #3
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

The cycle is important, and yes you're correct the idea is that it's a fluid system of personal alchemy, instead of distinct unrelated types.

For example, what they mean for 852 is that they have similarities, which is power seeking. 8 is tangible, 5 is knowledge, and 2 is people. 8 losing its sphere of control stresses out and reverts to introvert behaviors such as excessive solitary planning or rumination. A 5 in control of its knowledge will put it to use and reap tangible benefits and demonstrable competence.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 12:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

a type is a strategy. you CAN use every strategy. you wont see reason to bother with some of them. and you will also suck at some of those strategies. but the reason you see all of them as part of yourself is just because you understand them in principle.

the strategy is a relationship with the environment. aspects of environment. since we all have the same environment (reality) the same relationships are possible and sometimes, in a situation, only one strategy will seem feasible, so we may chose that against our temperaments preference.

but we totally overlook aspects of our environment or possibilities of relating to it. and i guess that is where cognitive type (mbti/jung) plays into it all somehow. along with what we want to see, based on desires described by the enneagram. cognitive types is what we CAN see and desire is our selective attention within that.

i see the triads as arenas of live. gut is the reality of resources and dependencies and a realm of impulsive attachment or absolute necessity (such as hunger). heart is the reality of relationships, familiarity, promises, hence human resources, dependencies, expectations. head is the reality of far sighted strategies, that opens up gradually as understanding of possibilities deepens.

we inhabit all of those arenas, but we don't challenge their possibilities or may be unwilling to compromise what is possible in one arena for what is possible in another one.

for instance just because you have a desire to understand does not make you a champion at utilizing the possibilities of far sighted planing. so you may identify as five or seven and suck at being five or seven simultaneously. and just because you know how to survive through ambition (5) doesn't mean you will sacrifice comfort (9).

therefore there is also a complex developmental issues, in addition to typological preferences.

with your conditioning as resource (memory, narrative, identity, experience and acquired skills) you will, on the one hand, grow your understanding of the arenas, in a typical sequence that is dictated by culture and objective circumstances: gut (you discover your body), heart (you define a role in family and tribe), head (you become responsible for your carreer) and in the sequence you will be highly identified with these arenas. this identification is not your type though, just your focus. nevertheless you will form fixations based on what works well for you and what has traumatized you.

in objective reality, you may also get stuck in one arena, due to circumstances. a junky is stuck in the gut arena, a moderately simple minded or anxious person lives a life defined by emotional relationship, enslaved within heart arena, only few people become empowered mentally in head arena.

nevertheless, within imagination, individuals may strive to escape those arenas or accept them.

so on the other hand you have some deep seated desire, based on your enneagram false-self strategy/conviction (i am not complete alone 4, i dont know enough 5, i am defined by dependency 6, i cant be stuck here 7, i must have control 8) etc. dont give to much weight to my spontaneous wording here, i just want to point out how the ennegram describes a fear based desire that irks us.

so this shit is highly confusing, when we don't experience our deepest anxiety directly. and who wants to do that.

because your intrinsic enneagram drive (anxiety) is just as real as your conditioned life experience with your abilities or struggles. its all real, but the question is what of it is intrinsic and illusion and what of it is based in objective realities, such as skill and opportunity.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 01:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

so if gut heart and head are realms within intelligence:

gut: structural awareness of what is here, based on concrete sensation. your posture, attitude, experience. being mallable, being stubborn, being dominant. heart: experience with what, of all possible constellations that come by, attracts and repels or hamonizes and hurts, base on oversight/familiarity. head: premonition of what would be possible upon manipulation, one step beyond what comes by, based on insight.

then how do we integrate or disintegrate, within our intelligence?

if you are mallable in your gut (9), can you become anything but mallable in relationship (3) or mallable in your goals (6)? that would seem hard.

on the other hand, if you are rigidly attached to your concepts (head 5) you could still be malable in your gut (9 - a typical tritype of 5), but only if you don't insist on acting consequently (1) according to your head (5) in which case you would have to become dominant in your gut (concrete physical action, such as speaking up) (8). if you stay rigidly attached to concepts (5) but confined within imagination and hypothesis, you can at most be opportunistic in action (uncreative 7, disintegrated 5) while you main remain stuck in established relationships (heart 4, another typical tritype of 5).


so these are just some examples of how i try to understand reality, based on how the enneagram is showing it to me. its of course an ongoing investigation.

i propose we use the enneagram as a tool that allows us to differentiate our own given reality and to focus on aspects of it so we can understand it better.

as opposed understanding a theoretical enneagram that exists in the imagination of some authors and pretending that imagination is real and predictive of what is possible in reality.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 05:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

According to my enneagram knowledge, Nanook is conflating much.

The Gut types, sometimes referred to as body types, are more preoccupied with boundaries and will, as opposed to "impulsive attachments, dependencies and hunger".

I cant be bothered to pick apart the rest, it's unnecessarily verbose.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 05:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

so you don't see the connection between your body (most original boundaries) your experience of will (ability to move your body or hold a still posture) and impulsive attachment or aversion? or how that requires energy, which is where hunger comes into it. the ability to associate all related things is the whole key to understanding what the fuck typology speaks about. that is exactly why i do not get tired of giving many different wordings, many examples for everything. because rigid bookish exact reductionistic definitions are just plain wrong and useless. the goal of thought is not to replace reality with formulars but to discover and navigate it.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 05:54 PM   #8
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

You are still unnecessarily verbose.

I'm not sure what you mean by "impulsive" attachment, but I do know that all of us have attachments and aversions, I don't see why you're emphasising the relationship between these two aspects of the human condition with the gut types alone.

As for this "hunger" you keep referring to, care to expand? Energy requires sustenance, hardly a revelation.

"A junkie is stuck in the Gut arena" ..

I don't think that's how it works.

If it works that way, then surely it works the other way, right?

So in what sort of circumstance would a gut type, like myself, be "stuck" in the "heart arena" ?
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Old 20th-December-2016, 06:40 PM   #9
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

you are like unnecessarily fucking with me. don't tell people how to think/write. its like telling someone they speak too silent or don't smile enough. if i write too much, just read faster


Quote:
I don't see why you're emphasising the relationship between these two aspects of the human condition with the gut types alone.
i didn't do that. everyone has a gut, along with a body. was the whole point of my speech. would have had to made yet another sentence to clarify this maybe.

hunger is an issue of the nine, therefore an example of a gut issue. they overeat and they eat to bottle up anger. the one tends to suppress hunger and may even become bulimic. the eight can also overeat sometimes but more importantly they are most likely to burn off excess calories in angry wood chopping. these are examples of how it can play out, not rules.

Quote:
> So in what sort of circumstance would a gut type, like myself, be "stuck" in the "heart arena" ?
good question but unnecessarily personal.

why are realtionships so important to you, that you sort of flirt around a lot?

if a woman must use men to enter society in order to gain objective control (both now via gut and long term via head) over their life. if a woman must play needy/stupid to get critical support/information out of men (about opportunities).

we are all dependent on whatever happens in these areas of life, so via dependency we can get stuck. like a junky needs to do crime to get money. this is not psychology. but reality. which was my point. not all of our objective fixations are psychological fixation. everyone is fixated on getting food and safety and some want procreation so we must use all three strategies as good as we can. introversion (5,4,1) extroversion (7,2,8) or flexibility (6,3,9).

our engramm type may spring from the first dependency that has impressed itself on our brain while we were babies.

explaining how the three triads/arenas look from the eyes of a baby would be quite the adventure for verbose wort artistry. but my memory of this time is quite limited anyways.

or we acquire the enneagram fixation within periods of our childhood.

stephen wolinsky has described the developmental journey of a child in terms of how it resonates with the typical enneagram challenges or strategies that are described as the nine types. book title in german is jenseits des enneagram. beyond the enneagram?
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Old 20th-December-2016, 07:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

@nanook

I am at default set to ennagram 2. I think it is just the way it is. Unless there are cycles I don't see how you can change your enneagram until your needs are met. And when they are met that this would mean you become deficient in other areas automatically? Look at the ponies. How do you change the default. I am alway willing to help others, it is my default that I don't know how it would change?

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Old 20th-December-2016, 07:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook View Post
you are like unnecessarily fucking with me.
I was not, but is that a challenge?

Quote:
Don't tell people how to think/write.
I didn't in this instance, but I'll do what I like none the less.

Quote:
It's like telling someone they speak too silent or don't smile enough. if i write too much, just read faster
Your verbosity isn't an issue in regards to time constraints, but it is perhaps the reason (I think) that you are conflating numerous concepts.

Pehaps the reductionists know best.

Quote:
I didn't do that. everyone has a gut, along with a body. was the whole point of my speech. would have had to made yet another sentence to clarify this maybe
You not going to expand on my queries specifically?

Quote:
hunger is an issue of the nine, therefore an example of a gut issue. they overeat and they eat to bottle up anger.
Indolence and sloth are issues with the 9, Gluttony with the 7 and Lust with the 8. I don't think "hunger" adequately conceptualises the motivations of the Gut Triad.

Quote:
One tends to suppress hunger and may even become bulimic. the eight can also overeat sometimes but more importantly they are most likely to burn off excess calories in angry wood chopping. these are examples of how it can play out, not rules.
That's a bit better.

Quote:
good question but unnecessarily personal.
What's personal about that question? I'm asking how your model works.

Quote:
why are realtionships so important to you, that you sort of flirt around a lot?
Now who's getting personal?
I thought the heart triad were the people occupied with the realm of relationships? (According yourself)

Quote:
if a woman must use men to enter society in order to gain objective control (both now via gut and long term via head) over their life. if a woman must play needy/stupid to get critical support/information out of men (about opportunities).
I've got no idea what you are talking about, or how it relates to Enneagram specifically?

Quote:
we are all dependent on whatever happens in these areas of life, so via dependency we can get stuck. like a junky needs to do crime to get money. this is not psychology
Quit moving the goal posts. You said a junky is stuck in the Gut arena, elaborate on this model, and how it works in alternative directions. Please.

Quote:
. but reality. which was my point. not all of our objective fixations are psychological fixation. everyone is fixated on getting food and safety and some want procreation so we must use all three strategies as good as we can. introversion (5,4,1) extroversion (7,2,8) or flexibility (6,3,9).
I don't know why you are bringing up Tri Types randomly, or how they relate to the points I've taken issue with. Do you see how objectivity suffers at the hands of your verbosity?

Quote:
our engramm type may spring from the first dependency that has impressed itself on our brain while we were babies.
As goes the theory..

Quote:
explaining how the three triads/arenas look from the eyes of a baby would be quite the adventure for verbose wort artistry. but my memory of this time is quite limited anyways.

or we acquire the enneagram fixation within periods of our childhood.

stephen wolinsky has described the developmental journey of a child in terms of how it resonates with the typical enneagram challenges or strategies that are described as the nine types. book title in german is jenseits des enneagram. beyond the enneagram?
I don't care about your verbose back story, just the answers to my queries.

Quoting is a useful tool for when parsing what requires response, and what does not.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 09:35 PM   #12
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Eiwaz Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook View Post

why are realtionships so important to you, that you sort of flirt around a lot?
Quote:

Type 8 Forum - The Challenger
n2freedom
Jun 24, 2012

Relationship Struggles - Sx Eights

According to R&H ...."the Instinctual Variants indicate which of our three basic instincts have been most distorted in childhood, resulting in characteristic pre-occupations and behaviors throughout the entire range of the personality type. And, they go on to say that people of the Sexual Variant tend to have recurrent problems in the areas of intimate relationships.

R&H refer to Sx dom as "being like a plug looking for a socket and can become obsessed with another if they feel they have found the right person for them." R&H describes Sx Eights the following way...

Quote:
Taking Charge. In the average range, Sexual Eights are the most quietly intense and charismatic kind of Eights. They are passionate about whomever they care about and want to feel that they have had a major impact on the lives of those in their sphere of influence. (This can be a positive or negative impact, of course, depending on the Level of Development.)

Like Social Eights, they enjoy rabble-rousing good times, although there is more of a rebellious streak in Sexual Eights. They have a sly sense of humor and enjoy being "bad". Sexual Eights can be deeply loving and devoted, but they can also see intimacy as a struggle for control or an opportunity to build their self-esteem.

They can play rough with intimates, are stimulated by a good argument, and can be impatient with niceness. Like the Self-Preservation Eights, they can be competitive, but more for the thrill of competition and less for security reasons. In fact, Sexual Eights lose interest if they win too easily, and this extends into their intimate relationships as well.
Naranjo says the following about Eights in general....
User said:

Quote:
We must consider that lust is more than hedonism. There is in lust not only pleasure, but pleasure in asserting the satisfaction of impulses, pleasure in the forbidden and, particularly, pleasure in fighting for pleasure.

In addition to pleasure proper there is here an admixture of some pain that has been transformed into pleasure: either the pain of others who are "preyed upon" for one's satisfaction or the pain entailed by the effort to conquer the obstacles in the way of satisfaction. It is this that makes lust a passion for intensity and not for pleasure alone. The extra intensity, the extra excitement, the "spice", comes not from instinctual satisfaction, but from a struggle and an implicit triumph.
Palmer says the following about Sx dom Eights.....

Quote:
Eights act out lust in the one-to-one arena by a possessive attitude toward intimates and friends. Every aspect of intimate life cries out for exploration. All the secrets have to be shared. Eights want to know all. They want to advise, to be consulted, and to take part in the decisions.

They often take charge of a loved one's life. Sexual subtype Eights are one of the highest energy positions on the diagram.

A combination of physical verve and an inclination toward domination makes them lusty in love and commanding in business. They are quick to stave off what they perceive to be encroachment on their private territories. Other people perceive them as relentless competitors.

Part of the pleasure of one-to-one relationships involves a control struggle. It's the struggle that's interesting. Winning may erase interest. The control struggle infuses relationships with vital energy and offers a way to test an associate's strength, honesty, and protective nature--all of which are fundamental to establish commitment.

Possession denotes access to the body, mind, and spirit of the mate whenever the occasion arises. Surrender involves fully possessing the loyalty and affections of a mate who will not put at a disadvantage. When you are completely certain about someone's intentions toward you, it is finally safe to surrender control.
http://personalitycafe.com/type-8-fo...4002?_k=ukuvtb
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Old 20th-December-2016, 10:01 PM   #13
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

i think you havent read a lot of enneagram books if you think there is some sort of authoritative consensuse on what keyword to use to capture the essence of a type, such as sloth or gluttony. or you are using traditionalism like a theologican: the first enneagram author had it right and everyone else is wrong? but why? was he channeling god? similarly you seem to believe that other people on the internet know some shit and you keep quoting them. that's weird to me.

Quote:
Pehaps the reductionists know best.
that never happend, afaict.

i really dont know how to respond to your weird commands/demands/comments.

or should i say command line parameters.

you are obviously not following my line of thought at all so what would be the point anyways ...

i bring up tritypes because our behavior is a spectrum of strategies consisting out of one preference for every triad and a way of drifting off from those preferences when you integrate (overcome fixation/ego narrative) or disintegrate (try to become unconcious of your ego narrative by avoiding it).

so if an individual wants to learn about how integration or disintegration works for them, they must know the strategies and what they relate to (the realms/arenas) and then they can see for themselves.

the point of the enneagram is not to predict people like a movie show author invents fictive charakters who do certain things, such as that "all nines are sloths/junkies/whatever", its to understand HOW or why one indiviudal, who happens to be a junky, became trapped in that position (and how he interprets his siutation subjectively).

he avoids strategies that would allow him to act differently but confict with his fixation, his need to do only that one thing over and over again.

perhaps his fixation is to avoid authorities, so he can't get help. thinking in this manner is inntelligent use of the enneagram.

thinking that types who avoid the six strategy of depending on authorities (like a 5 would or like a 6 who is currently disintegrated into 3 and pretends to be respectable so they cant admit to needing help) are always junkies would be silly. everyone who tries to use typologies for prediction is fantasizing. this goes for mbti/jung as well.


or perhaps the individual is a 5 dis-integrated into the 7 (lazy opportunism), which means he avoids a core ability of the 5 (indepedend judgement of dependencies = asceticism), an ability that could free him from his gutsy junky life. he may avoid relying on the 5 because its becoming too scary for him (the five looses his grip in concrete reality) but he is happy to find temporary grounding in the impulsive (meaning not far sighted = not head triad) world of 8 or 9.


can you not use imagination to explore the rich territories of these three realms? how moving around in reality activates certain aspects of our being?

its impossible to explain why the life of a typical (broke) junky is necessarily a gutsy life, without making a thousand words, which you have forbidden, so i am speechless. but its also so obvious, i cant imagine what your problem with it is.

all i was trying to point out is that if i force a head type to commit to his perception of boundaries, by coming after him with angry parents, angry drug dealers and the police, he must decide where his boundaries are going to be, using his preference for introversion (1), extroversion (8), or flexibility (9).

but if he is not forced to commit, he wont show a clear preference, because his gut preferences are not his core fixation, which is the head. meaning the headtype avoids revealing or declaring his idea of boundaries, if possible.

meaning fixating in 5 requires us to avoid 8 and exhibiting 8 behavior would require letting go of the 5 fixation first. so this is an example of integration. whats integrated is the full spectrum of the head, because fixation in the head was given up. that means the head is now capable of showing traits of 6 and 7 in addition to 5.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 10:20 PM   #14
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

ak, i don't think you are a two at all. more likely a 4, disintegrating into 2. which means you would rather make yourself useful and be appreciated for that (behavior that resembles a 2 on the surface) than to feel that sense of loneliness and incompleteness that defines the fixation of the four.

the four has the false self sense of being incomplete, in fact being so weird that he thinks himself as being incompletable by his given environment. he thinks something is missing in the environment that makes the environment not capable of completing of whatever he perceives himself to be. he may imagine something fantastic that isn't really happening (daddy coming home) might do it, but whatever is possible isn't enough. it pains him just too much and so he likes to disintegrate into the fantasy of "completing other people" by giving them what they need or ask for, because doing so creates the experience of being somehow one with their environment momentarily and allows him to forget about the pain of separation for just a moment. but the illusion of completion lasts only as long as the deed, the service. then the false self concept of the four is felt again and life in reality seems so incomplete again, that only the imagination of unicorn heaven can save you from the absolute terror of not being what you ought to be, not being anything really, not knowing what you are, not having meaning assigned to you, not knowing your place.

something like that anyways

lmao at this unicorn enneagram

and to think of the 1 as "reformer". i wish the only 1 i know was not such a conservative traditionalist. i want to reform their ass. but they think of themselves as representing a norm that i have yet to achieve (i ought to be more responsible), so in that sense the label makes some sense.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 10:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

ak, you never become another type, when you use another strategy. you simply produce another behavior, when you let loose of your fixation to your favorite behavior.

that other behavior happens within one of the three arenas and its either introverted, extroverted or flexible in nature.

so, we have covered the possibility of 4 and 2 for you, where else can you go? i don't know how you might be like if you were to integrate into 1, so i cant describe. i can say that teal swan integrates into 1 by being an intellectual guide for others.

once the 4 is integrated, they have overcome their heart fixation, which means the are open to all heart strategies. this means the 3 is now available. the 3 is also obvious in teal swan.

but while you are in the 4 your only other options are the wings. how does the 3 wing look like when the 4 is not integrated? then the 2 agenda would be around. a need to be useful, to complete other people, to even tell them that they are incomplete without you, to advertise boldly what completion you can offer them and to produce traits for that purpose alone that may not be your own traits. the 4 moves from self expression (i want to be loved) to performing (i'm a lover - adore me). and how does the 5 wing look like? simply avoiding the experience of relationships by writing about them, turning them into little stories that can be witnessed from detached perspective.

other possibilities depend on your tritype. i believe a 4 would fall into the arena of gut if their relationships suddenly break and they loose all orientation within their heart arena. then it would be revealed whether they have a preference for 9, 8 or 1.

meaning flexibility, introversion, extroversion.

gutsy behavior in fours is in no way identical to what a person with permanent gut fixation might do. its not healthy well trained functional behavior. its something primitive that that temporarily fills the gap of not using heart strategies.

it merely exhibits one of these three directions and can therefore be numbered.

gutsy behavior in 4 could be a choleric melt down (8 meaning extroverted) but is much more likely to be a schizoid apathy and parroting of expectations of others (9 meaning flexible) or its self-hurting behavior (1 meaning introverted).

and can a 4 develop into the head arena? they already have wing based affinity for an introverted approach to the head arena (5), because they are a very introverted individual, i believe. their access to 5 could be well thought out, stable, established. any behavior in the head arena (regarding manipulation or far sighted planning) that is more extroverted (7) or more flexible (6) might become possible, when other people help out. a professional relationship might bring out the potential for long term submission (6). having an audience might offer many opportunities for adventure (7). what would you prefer? but entirely out of their own juice, the 4 can not operate from within the head arena consistently, while they are fixated. because their actions are dictated by their identity related pain (sense of being rejected or incomplete) or their avoidance of pain (longing for completion, a perfect in the world). they cant be cool enough to be free, cant be at home/complete wherever they are (7), cant be at home when feeling used (6), so the 4 needs frequent breaks from any 6 or 7 behavior.
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Old 21st-December-2016, 12:02 AM   #16
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook View Post
i think you havent read a lot of enneagram books if you think there is some sort of authoritative consensuse on what keyword to use to capture the essence of a type, such as sloth or gluttony.
I never brought up "authoritative consensus", what I brought up was, and still is, your verbosity and your propensity to complicate simple concepts via verbosity.. which for all its verbosity still fails to adequately convey meaning.. as evidenced by the confusion herein.

As a fellow Gut type, I take issue with your deviation from commonly accepted terminology; which I wouldn't have an issue with if your terminology adequately conveyed the correct meaning, which - by your own further explanations - you have conceded that it did and does not.

How does your description of "Impulsive attachment, dependencies and hunger" convey any more meaning or understanding than the terminology employed by the "experts"?

Here's a clue, it does not. You left lots of room for ambiguity there, which is why I'm still typing.

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or you are using traditionalism like a theologican:
Haha, Riso & Hudson : Ennea 9, Level 4 "Employs philosophy to deflect others".

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the first enneagram author had it right and everyone else is wrong? but why? was he channeling god? similarly you seem to believe that other people on the internet know some shit and you keep quoting them. that's weird to me.
Well, I've been quoting the actual theorists of the theories, which is usual practice in the normal world, which I concede, you may not be a part of.

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i really dont know how to respond to your weird commands/demands/comments.
There is nothing weird about my questions or requests, you are simply "copping out"

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or should i say command line parameters.
The parameters are very clear in this discussion, save to the blind.

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you are obviously not following my line of thought at all so what would be the point anyways ...
Oh I'm following you, (as evidenced by these quotes?), it is you who seems not to be following me. (As evidenced by your lack of?)

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[
i bring up tritypes because our behavior is a spectrum of strategies consisting out of one preference for every triad
According to Tri Type theory that is.

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and a way of drifting off from those preferences when you integrate (overcome fixation/ego narrative) or disintegrate (try to become unconcious of your ego narrative by avoiding it).

so if an individual wants to learn about how integration or disintegration works for them, they must know the strategies and what they relate to (the realms/arenas) and then they can see for themselves.

the point of the enneagram is not to predict people like a movie show author invents fictive charakters who do certain things, such as that "all nines are sloths/junkies/whatever", its to understand HOW or why one indiviudal, who happens to be a junky, became trapped in that position (and how he interprets his siutation subjectively).

he avoids strategies that would allow him to act differently but confict with his fixation, his need to do only that one thing over and over again.

perhaps his fixation is to avoid authorities, so he can't get help. thinking in this manner is inntelligent use of the enneagram.

thinking that types who avoid the six strategy of depending on authorities (like a 5 would or like a 6 who is currently disintegrated into 3 and pretends to be respectable so they cant admit to needing help) are always junkies would be silly. everyone who tries to use typologies for prediction is fantasizing. this goes for mbti/jung as well.


or perhaps the individual is a 5 dis-integrated into the 7 (lazy opportunism), which means he avoids a core ability of the 5 (indepedend judgement of dependencies = asceticism), an ability that could free him from his gutsy junky life. he may avoid relying on the 5 because its becoming too scary for him (the five looses his grip in concrete reality) but he is happy to find temporary grounding in the impulsive (meaning not far sighted = not head triad) world of 8 or 9.
That's all very well, but our exchange was about my challenge to your verbosity, your ill chosen descriptions, and a couple of other queries which you haven't even addressed.

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[
can you not use imagination to explore the rich territories of these three realms? how moving around in reality activates certain aspects of our being?[
...

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its impossible to explain why the life of a typical (broke) junky is necessarily a gutsy life, without making a thousand words, which you have forbidden, so i am speechless. but its also so obvious, i cant imagine what your problem with it is.
Now you've moved the goal posts again.
"A junky lives a gusty life" . Previously you said that they are "stuck in the Gut Triad" .. hmm.. I asked you to explain that, hmm.. it's "impossible" to do so, hmm?

Hmm.

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all i was trying to point out is that if i force a head type to commit to his perception of boundaries, by coming after him with angry parents, angry drug dealers and the police, he must decide where his boundaries are going to be, using his preference for introversion (1), extroversion (8), or flexibility (9).

but if he is not forced to commit, he wont show a clear preference, because his gut preferences are not his core fixation, which is the head. meaning the headtype avoids revealing or declaring his idea of boundaries, if possible.

meaning fixating in 5 requires us to avoid 8 and exhibiting 8 behavior would require letting go of the 5 fixation first. so this is an example of integration. whats integrated is the full spectrum of the head, because fixation in the head was given up. that means the head is now capable of showing traits of 6 and 7 in addition to 5.
Blehh, I'm done toying with you if you are going to maintain deflections and meaningless verbosity.
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Old 21st-December-2016, 12:28 AM   #17
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

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Blehh, I'm done toying with you
precisely what you did.

you are all about being right and proving me wrong and meanwhile not interested in exploring the subject AT ALL, that is why you insist on quoting a random thought i typed out hours ago as if it was meant to be some sort of mathematical theorem that is supposed to prove something or be implemented in the source code of some trojan horse and compete with code of someone else. LMAO.

and i dont give a shit about NORMAL behavior like this, so i don't quote shit and i never visit the NORMAL world where NORMAL fags are try to boss me around. you cant use that SPELL of norms on me.

i'm done responding.
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Old 21st-December-2016, 12:31 AM   #18
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Lol, Nanook, you are a fanny.

Why not just say "it was random thought" without getting all on the defensive.

I'm not concerned with you, as much as I am the contents of your posts. I already knew you'd cop out, hence my "toying".

You fall apart under scrutiny, as do your assertions.
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Old 21st-December-2016, 02:06 AM   #19
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Default Re: Amateur question regarding enneagram

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Originally Posted by Sinny91 View Post
Lol, Nanook, you are a fanny.

Why not just say "it was random thought" without getting all on the defensive.

I'm not concerned with you, as much as the contents of your post. I already knew you'd cop out, hence my "toying".

You fall apart under scrutiny, as do your assertions.
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