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Old 27th-November-2016, 07:28 PM   #1
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Default are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Our values, the meaning we give to things in life, do not exist in objective reality. They are created by us and we assign them to things. Since they only exist in our minds, they are not "objectively" correct or incorrect. Each person might have a different value/meaning and each person's interpretation is equally valid.

Then why do people say "stay true to your values"? If each interpretation is equally valid, what reason do we have to continue with our own? We could destroy our interpretation and adopt another.

Or, we could destroy interpretation altogether. If our meanings and principles exist only in our minds, are they valid? Should we listen to them? Or are we deceiving ourselves? Should we destroy all self-created values and live a hedonistic life like animals?

This realization has given me an existential crisis ... I feel like I don't know who I am anymore or what to believe. I don't know if my entire life was a lie I told myself, and whether I should destroy my identity and everything I believe in and start anew. But it is a scary decision because once I do that there is no going back ... it is a one way street.

If you would like to know one of the specific values I am reconsidering, please read the spoiler:

Spoiler:


My view on sex, which some of you may know, is that the act itself means more to me than just the physical. It's more than just penetration, or whatever, to me, I consider it something special, like becoming one with another, that makes it a big deal.

Because of what it means to me, I don't have sex with just anyone. Now there are others, who enjoy casual sex, who do not give the act as much meaning as I give it. They see it as just a physical act for physical pleasure, which is why they are okay with casual sex.

The path that I have given myself, by building up this 'meaning' to it, has made my life a living hell. I feel isolated and alone due to mainstream society, and everyone I know, adopting the latter view. If I feel strongly for someone, it hurts if they have the latter view. It is painful because I feel like I want to share the experience with them, but it doesn't mean as much to them as it does to me. I live in fear that I will never find anyone who shares my view. I also sacrifice opportunities for casual sex due to this view.

But all of this misery and sacrifice would be worth it if, in the end, I get to experience the meaningful thing I made it into, with someone else who feels the same way about it. However, due to the way things are in the world, I am unsure if I will ever find that. If I don't find that, all of my misery would be in vain. If I don't find that, I would either have to live alone, or be with someone who doesn't feel the same way back and be hurt.

Due to this, I am considering whether I should just force myself to destroy all the meaning I gave to it, and start to see it as a simple physical act. On the one hand, it would make my life easier in the sense I don't have to worry about this shit anymore and can stop waiting for something that may never happen. But on the other hand I think it would have far reaching effects for me.

I feel that if I destroyed those values, I would also be destroying my identity. Even just thinking about it, imagining it, makes me already feel hollow. I would feel like I lost myself, and everything in life would lose its meaning. Everything. Even things unrelated to sex. I wouldn't be able to play with children the same way, I wouldn't be able to go to the zoo, I wouldn't be able to shop for clothes. I would feel like I lost myself, empty and hollow, with no point to anyting in life anymore.

Is this normal? I don't know why destroying one set of values would affect things in life completely unrelated to those values. Maybe it has something to do with identity, idk.

So now I'm just stuck.



I feel miserable, I can't live like this anymore. There is no way out, it is a lose lose situation. I set myself up for failiure. I really want to just die sometimes, it is better than withstanding this pain and hopelessness.
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Old 27th-November-2016, 08:13 PM   #2
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Originally Posted by ruminator View Post
I feel miserable, I can't live like this anymore. There is no way out, it is a lose lose situation. I set myself up for failiure. I really want to just die sometimes, it is better than withstanding this pain and hopelessness.
I've experienced the exact same thing.
I want to say that I care about how you feel on this matter.
I don't want to be with anyone that will not connect with me fully.
I know people like me exist and that is how I got past the despair.
The hard part is finding them but that will get easier in the future.
You have a unique personality that computers already know how to locate.
You will not be alone forever, you should keep what your heart most values.

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Old 27th-November-2016, 08:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I think society would do better if they valued sex in a relationship as you do. I think we should share values and those values should benefit society as a whole. If society benefits then everyone including you and those you love do as well.
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Old 27th-November-2016, 08:56 PM   #4
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

There are plenty of people who share your view.

And why would there be "no going back"?
You didn't build yourself within in a day, you're certainly not going to destroy yourself within a day.

You can't just wake up one day and decide to change your dearly held values, well.. you can, but only if that's what you really want, and what you are really capable of.

Whatever happens, I suggest just keeping it natural and organic, instead of forcing your self to do things which you are uncomfortable with.

Sounds like you're looking for love, but ain't we all?
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Old 27th-November-2016, 09:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I've pondered something like this myself. I was wondering because a friend told me she had indeed slept with someone, but "you know, it's just sex, like, innit." There was also an incident earlier in the year when I thought someone liked me, but it turned out she was just pretending because she found me attractive, but just wanted a one-off as she didn't actually like me.

I know plenty of people who view it as a simple physical pleasure. But personally, I just don't enjoy someone being that close to me without a really good connection. I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to be naked, skin to skin, with every hang up you have open to each other, without even liking then as a person. And I have had the experience of when it has deep meaning, and it simply doesn't compare to when feelings are not involved.

The conclusion I came to follows a simple rule - the only time it's wrong is when one person is being hurt. That covers any force, coercion and lying. If that's how they want to live their lives and enjoy it themselves, they are quite welcome to without any judgement from me. As long as both parties are perfectly happy with what it is. I am happy alone for the time being until I meet someone else I'm happy to share that with, and I'm happy with how the act is to me. I'm more unhappy that I don't meet a lot of people I connect with, so it's not likely to happen anytime soon. But that's just the way it is.

Don't change yourself. Be who you are and be comfortable with it, and accept that other people are who they are and aren't the same as you. There are plenty of people who see things the same way as you do.

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Old 27th-November-2016, 09:19 PM   #6
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I don't think I've ever been in love, I thought I was the once... but apart from that.

If feelings were a required perquisite to sex, I wouldn't be getting any... and that would be a dull and repressed existence.

As for being skin to skin etc. Naked bodies stopped being daunting to me years ago. We've all got the same, just in different shapes and sizes.. If I didn't already have a reasonable idea of what was under there, I wouldn't bother.
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Old 27th-November-2016, 09:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Lol - I didn't say naked bodies were daunting. I'm not as strict about it as Grayman is; but that's OK is what I'm getting at. Whether you entity casual encounters is not right or wrong, it is personal preference.

And I didn't say I had to be in love - just have a good connection to enjoy it. Someone who I don't like as a person it ain't gonna happen with. I have been with friends before now and enjoyed the experience just fine.

I have done both. I have been in love, and the experience was a totally different level. When that was gone, it was very different. And it's not that a physical relationship is wrong, as such, it's just not the same.

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Old 27th-November-2016, 10:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

This is perhaps the main problem I have struggled with myself for a long time now. Since we can shape our values pretty much as we want, is it good to commit to any specific set of values?

The problem of always leaving things up to interpretation and never commit to anything is that you will lack the emotional energy to do anything. You will have sort of latent subconscious drives that push you around in life, and although you will have a vague sense of who you are, you will not able to solidly put yourself on a specific path. Eventually you will encounter situations that require very definite choices, and without values you are just a leaf in the wind, fully subject to letting outside forces dictate your actions.

On the other hand, the downside of actually committing to a set of values, at least on the face of it, is that it is a form of self-delusion. It is not really delusion because you don't have to believe in things that contradict reality, but you still have to close your mind to certain interpretations of reality. In the eyes of deep thinkers, that is a form of philosophical suicide.

Maybe there is a third choice, namely committing to specific values but not forgetting that they are arbitrary. That is sort of my current way of living. You get a certain amount of emotional energy and momentum towards specific goals, but you still know that nothing is to really be taken seriously. That gives you a certain sense of freedom and respect for other people's values as well.

When lost in the woods, your best bet is to just pick one direction and stick to it, as Descartes once said.
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Old 27th-November-2016, 10:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Yeah I don't have a problem with people doing what works for them but to me I want to at least like and enjoy spending time with the person I'm having sex with. I don't necessarily have to be madly in love with them, but I would have trouble doing it with someone who I just plain don't even like.

It's not even about "morals" or being a prude or anything like that. I would just feel like I am selling myself out and not being true to myself if I slept with a bunch of random people I didn't like. That does of course mean I probably have a lot less sex than I would otherwise, but what is the point if you don't even like yourself anymore after doing that? I don't really have any great advice for the ruminator though. As they themselves said it's sort of a lose-lose situation.

I'm not sure if there actually is a person out there who I could spend my life with either however. Even in the "good" relationships I've had eventually I end up feeling trapped by the obligations inherent to such a relationship. I am probably being selfish but I feel like I am no longer myself if I have to give up too much freedom. I just like to do random stuff, obsess over new interests for awhile, etc...which is hard to do in a relationship with most people where you have to consider their needs as well.
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Old 27th-November-2016, 10:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I think WhatWas That explained it better than I did. Especially as I have a slight quandary myself - I have don't want a full relationship, but I don't really want something totally random with someone I don't even like. And I don't like that many people.

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Old 28th-November-2016, 12:51 AM   #11
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I've been thinking about this too.

Current self dictating beliefs for subsequent self:
Spoiler:

I think that intentionally changing views is a dangerous affair. The only thing that informs what views you decide to have, is your current flawed values you wish to no longer have. Rather, I think changes to your values should be made naturalistically. Decide to expose yourself to conditions which will either affirm or negate your values. Change your behaviour and if the value is congruent with who and what you are, then the value will follow.

This of course requires the room to make mistakes.


Are values valid?
Spoiler:

Firstly, they do exist in objective reality. It is your mind, but exists independent of your awareness of them. Other people may not be able to experience our values yet, but in the future, there's no reason we wouldn't be able to connect to one another at a neural level. Our hemispheres are already the equivalent of two brains attached at the hip and knee, they share most of the same parts the way any two individual humans do, but with various small differences that make them unique.

But are they valid/equally valid? God no!
Values are functional, in that the inform mood, beliefs, behaviour, and cognitions. This means values that aren't congruent with your function are less valid than ones that are. There's a reason we near universally value freedom, but as a society don't value the sexual utility of the dead, our dogs, or children. We can faff on all we want about individual values, but at the end of the day we value *our* values and dismiss those that are not congruent with them.


But is meaningful sex a useful value to have?
Spoiler:

It's hard to say. In my view it's not, but if people were to guess my views from my sexual history, they would most likely assume I put great stock in it. I'm afraid of hurting people who value meaningful sex by not valuing them as much as they expect. I've avoided sex twice in the last month because of this.

So now you're ruining it for both of us

While I don't have any value attached to sex, that doesn't mean I can't have meaningful sex. Why is it wrong to have meaningless sex? You could argue STI's, unwanted pregnancy, the afore mention social ramifications of hurt feels when someone else expects connection... But there is nothing wrong with it once these factors are taken into account. Or is there?

If mechanical sex is pleasurable but not meaningful, it's not as good as meaningful sex, but doesn't come at the expense of it.

One thing wrong with casual sex is that you can't derive the same validation from it. You can't walk away thinking you mean something to someone.

If you consult within, do you feel as if becoming the sort of person who can have casual sex is mutually exclusive with being able to *know* you are valued when you do actually have sex? How's your self-esteem? (Obviously feel free not to answer). Because this would explain why you prioritise one over the other.

Another alternative is that you just know yourself, and you know that since you perceive sex as meaningful regardless of the other person's thoughts on the issue, abstaining from meaningless sex protects you from a state of vulnerability that would result from having feels for someone who doesn't feel the same. There's more going on under the hood in sex than bumping uglies, even if us certified non-romantics like to think otherwise.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 01:27 AM   #12
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado View Post
I've been thinking about this too.

Current self dictating beliefs for subsequent self:
Spoiler:

I think that intentionally changing views is a dangerous affair. The only thing that informs what views you decide to have, is your current flawed values you wish to no longer have. Rather, I think changes to your values should be made naturalistically. Decide to expose yourself to conditions which will either affirm or negate your values. Change your behaviour and if the value is congruent with who and what you are, then the value will follow.

This of course requires the room to make mistakes.
Yep. You have to be willing to make mistakes, which means you have to be willing to suffer. Just as importantly, you have to be willing to accept that your pain means something and maybe you shouldn't put your hand in the fire again - rather than letting someone talk you into it, allowing the huge swathes of existential ambiguity you possess to sway you from the knowledge about yourself you've gained from experience. Maybe you know that you tend to argue yourself out of the lesson on your own values you should be learning upon experiencing hurt, which makes you afraid to try things, leading to these painfully wrought philosophical discussions?

Also ruminator you sound like you might struggle with a great deal of anxiety. Most of the time when one feels there's no way out between two equally unacceptable poles, there really is. If you can internalise that it might help to weather these stormy periods better.

I agree/strongly resonate with much of Tannhauser's post as well, along with a couple of others he's made in the same vein recently. However, not sure if that's part of his 'next 100 posts' trick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tannhauser
On the other hand, the downside of actually committing to a set of values, at least on the face of it, is that it is a form of self-delusion. It is not really delusion because you don't have to believe in things that contradict reality, but you still have to close your mind to certain interpretations of reality. In the eyes of deep thinkers, that is a form of philosophical suicide.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 03:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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However, not sure if that's part of his 'next 100 posts' trick.
That experiment failed after about 5 posts or so. What I tried to so was to remove all references to myself in posts, i.e. removing all words like "I", "me", "my" and so on. It's kinda funny how hard it is to do that.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 09:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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That experiment failed after about 5 posts or so.
Maybe if you had more solidified values you'd have finished
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Old 28th-November-2016, 09:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Maybe if you had more solidified values you'd have finished
Exactly
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Old 28th-November-2016, 09:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Sounds like you're looking for love, but ain't we all?
Yeah, but everyone's too busy looking for par'mach in all the wrong places.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 10:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Where are the right places?
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Old 28th-November-2016, 10:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruminator
If I feel strongly for someone, it hurts if they have the latter view. It is painful because I feel like I want to share the experience with them, but it doesn't mean as much to them as it does to me. I live in fear that I will never find anyone who shares my view.
The key to great sex isn't technique but rather good communication, as I've explained in another thread the most exciting thing about sex is knowing how aroused the person you're having sex with is.

If you want emotional intimacy then express that desire, tell your partner you want to be kissed slowly and taken lovingly, tell him that's what really turns you on and believe me there are no words more powerful. Because there's nothing more appealing to a guy than being with someone who is turned on, the more the better, people underestimate how incredibly psychological sex is.

It's not a matter of physical intimacy or emotional intimacy, in sex they're the same thing, the more physically aroused you and your partner are the more emotionally meaningful the experience will be.

Likewise terrible sex feels meaningless.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 10:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
What I tried to so was to remove all references to myself in posts, i.e. removing all words like "I", "me", "my" and so on. It's kinda funny how hard it is to do that.
tell me about it =(
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Old 28th-November-2016, 12:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Where are the right places?
If I knew that, I'd be looking there. As it is, I know what I want and I'm fairly certain I haven't been looking in the right place because I haven't found her. And I'm also referring to people like this guy in work, who every now and then says, "I went out with this lovely girl I met. Really nice, got on well, but you know just didn't fancy her." He's 38 and still single. And how often I hear complaints from my female friends about how bad their BF's are. And I'm trying to be civil about it and just thinking, "I tried to tell you he was a twat. Anyone could see that." And no, that's not a jealousy thing. I can't think of anyone I know right now who i would call compatible with me - so I must be looking in the wrong place. I thought I'd found one, but I was way off. Wrong places.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 07:46 PM   #21
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I guess the first step to all of this is to understand myself first. I haven't really critically thought about my perspective, so now, doing that, is making me realize how little I know about my own perspective..

I have two main confusions, and I'll tell you one of them because I'm hoping others with a similar perspective, or those who understand it, might be able to shed some light:

For people in the "I think sex is a meaningful act, I don't want to share a meaningful act with a stranger, therefore I don't want to have sex with a stranger" camp -- Are we thinking it is a meaningful act because we are unable to distinguish between the physical aspect and the emotional aspect, and we are seeing them as the same? What if we can distinguish between the two? Then, which one are we referring to when we say "it" is meaningful?

I know quite well that one can have non-emotional sex and still feel physical pleasure, I am capable of telling the difference between the two. Then, what do I mean when I say it is "meaningful"? Which aspect am I referring to?

I thought about it and came up with a guess. It is in the spoiler, but please think of your perspective before reading it because I don't want it to influence your answers.

Spoiler:


I think we are aware that the physical act is separate from the emotions, and when we say we think sex is meaningful, we ARE talking about the physical act. We think the physical action of penetration is a meaningful action so we don't want to do that with a stranger.

If we only thought the emotional part was meaningful, and the physical was not, then our stance wouldn't make sense. Then, physical sex would be not meaningful to us..so we should have no issue with doing it with a stranger, because it wouldn't qualify as sharing something
meaningful with a stranger.

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Old 28th-November-2016, 08:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

The sexual act is concomitant to emotion(s)... There are qualitative differences in emotion, leading up to the act.

Some people have a greater set of needs than others due to different reasons (e.g. gender/sex, fears, tastes, social customs etc.), and therefore, set particular criteria.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 08:08 PM   #23
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I wish you'd stop saying "penetration"

Why has this now been narrowed down to "having sex with strangers"?

Who's having sex with strangers on a regular basis, and is not a prostitute?

Lol.

Oh.. wait... men... Durr. I retract the above statement, or simply apply it just to women.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 08:56 PM   #24
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

If I trust a person enough to let them touch me it is because I know they trust me in the same way. They put their complete faith in me and that means more to me than physical pleasure.
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Old 28th-November-2016, 08:57 PM   #25
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Some people do have sex with strangers. I see it quite frequently (around here, at least. I don't know what it's like everywhere else.) I knew someone earlier this year who slept with at least 8 people in 3 weeks. I am not a judgmental person at all, but I really thought she had a problem. But then there are other things in between that and one-true-love. We all have the right to figure out where on that spectrum we are happy with. For me, it doesn't have to be love, or two feelings, but we do have to understand and like each other (I think is the best way of explaining it).

The bigger question I wonder is why it's so important to get. Why are people willing to hurt others or cheat on long term partners or mislead someone about their intentions just to get it. Granted, it's very enjoyable, but is it really THAT important? It's particularly something I wonder as my ex had around 4 affairs in the last five years of our relationship.

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Old 28th-November-2016, 09:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Well, Nymphos aside

I take my integrity seriously, and I'm sensitive to issues around honesty, trust, boundaries and betrayal.

Cross me in any of these ways, and there'll be hell to pay. As an extension of that, I extend others the same...mostly.. I might commit the occasional transgression, and even forgive myself the occasional transgression.. but a pattern of transgressions would be me living a lie, and I wouldn't find that acceptable about myself.

I think I've had 5 exclusive relationships in my adulthood (all short lived, obviously) and I only transgressed the once.

I didn't think it was a big deal, but apparently it was
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Old 28th-November-2016, 10:52 PM   #27
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I don't believe a transgression in a short lived relationship is the same as in one where you have two children and home together by then. I even once did so back in college out of curiosity (I'm sure most curiosity is my excuse for everything), but I finished with her afterwards because I don't like lying to people. But I'm probably harsher on myself than other people anyway. Maybe it's just that I don't give trust to a lot of people and I neither want to break it, and I guess it hurts all the more because I consider that a more important gift. Maybe that's what I'm looking for; I don't know.

With forgiveness - I'm far too lazy to actually hold a grudge. Hate takes too much energy. But stopping caring; when that happens there's no way back. I won't wait for karma or even care if anything else happens.

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Old 28th-November-2016, 11:27 PM   #28
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Ok I'm now posting my second confusion relating to my personal view. If anyone can srsly answer this I would be SO grateful because this one is driving me fucking crazy:

PersonA: I think sex is a meaningful/special thing. I wouldn't want to share such a meaningful thing with a casual encounter. I only want to share it with someone special.

PersonB: I think sex can be meaningful/special in some situations, but is not meaningful in casual situations

I feel like there is a HUGE difference between what B and A are talking about when they say it is meaningful. Because A's views the act itself as a meaningful act, so what the act 'means' doesn't change based on the circumstance. A assigns meaning to the act itself first, and then decides what to do in circumstances BASED ON THAT pre-assigned meaning. Whereas B's view of what the act means changes based on each circumstance.

What is going on here? What is the difference between A and B's assigning of meaning? WHY does B's fluctuate while A's doesnt? They must be doing something differently.

It feels like B is not assigning meaning to the same thing, in the same way as A. It feels like A is assigning meaning to the act inherently, whereas I dunno what B is assigning meaning to. It can't be to the act...because then it would stay constant like A's does.

Think of this --

If B is properly assigning meaning to the act, the same meaning A is assigning, and that assignment ONLY applies during emotional situations, that means it is POSSIBLE for A to restrict his assignment to emotional situations too. There is NO reason why A would WANT to extend the assignment to casual situations too. Who the hell would choose to assign meaning to a casual situation?!

Clearly, A's assigning meaning to all situations (including casual) is not a CHOICE, it is a NECESSARY consequence of the assignment.

If A's assignment necessarily applies in all situations, then if B was making the same assignment as A, it would also apply in all situations. Since B's assignment does not apply in all situations, it CAN NOT be the same assignment as A.

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Old 28th-November-2016, 11:50 PM   #29
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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PersonA: I think sex is a meaningful/special thing. I wouldn't want to share such a meaningful thing with a casual encounter. I only want to share it with someone special.

PersonB: I think sex can be meaningful/special in some situations, but is not meaningful in casual situations
(A) is a unique thing that can only be shared with that specific and rare person
(B) is intimacy that you can share with near anyone

Some people are satisfied with bronze but some people desire gold
(A) gives sex greater meaning than (B) because gold is rarer than bronze

(A) is supposed to be difficult to find and cultivate and that is why it is so special
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Old 29th-November-2016, 12:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

A: sex should only happen because of love.
B: sex is just sex but any encounter could turn into love.

The distinction is whether love comes first or second.

For some people, they can give themselves to anyone but once they find a certain person that person become the only person they want to give themselves to.

I don't want to give myself to anyone other than the person I love, it is only for them no one else. I have never met the person I love but I am only for them and no one else.
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Old 29th-November-2016, 01:41 AM   #31
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Ok I'm now posting my second confusion relating to my personal view. If anyone can srsly answer this I would be SO grateful because this one is driving me fucking crazy:

PersonA: I think sex is a meaningful/special thing. I wouldn't want to share such a meaningful thing with a casual encounter. I only want to share it with someone special.

PersonB: I think sex can be meaningful/special in some situations, but is not meaningful in casual situations

I feel like there is a HUGE difference between what B and A are talking about when they say it is meaningful. Because A's views the act itself as a meaningful act, so what the act 'means' doesn't change based on the circumstance. A assigns meaning to the act itself first, and then decides what to do in circumstances BASED ON THAT pre-assigned meaning. Whereas B's view of what the act means changes based on each circumstance.

What is going on here? What is the difference between A and B's assigning of meaning? WHY does B's fluctuate while A's doesnt? They must be doing something differently.

It feels like B is not assigning meaning to the same thing, in the same way as A. It feels like A is assigning meaning to the act inherently, whereas I dunno what B is assigning meaning to. It can't be to the act...because then it would stay constant like A's does.

Think of this --

If B is properly assigning meaning to the act, the same meaning A is assigning, and that assignment ONLY applies during emotional situations, that means it is POSSIBLE for A to restrict his assignment to emotional situations too. There is NO reason why A would WANT to extend the assignment to casual situations too. Who the hell would choose to assign meaning to a casual situation?!

Clearly, A's assigning meaning to all situations (including casual) is not a CHOICE, it is a NECESSARY consequence of the assignment.

If A's assignment necessarily applies in all situations, then if B was making the same assignment as A, it would also apply in all situations. Since B's assignment does not apply in all situations, it CAN NOT be the same assignment as A.

A is a self-contradiction. If the casual case spoils the "specialness", then the statement is basically "it is categorically special, but not special in casual cases i.e. it is also conditionally special".
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Old 29th-November-2016, 02:21 AM   #32
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

We create, destroy, and replace values all the time, or at least I do, and I'd expect intuitives to have a much faster turnover rate than sensors. They also get more complex, e.g. maybe the value of sex changes depending on the other individual. Eventually there's some equilibrium reached which I assume is based on one's thought process, that produces a cohesive structure within which we operate.

"Stay true to your values" because even with a high turnover rate, some will stick around from beginning to end and in my experience they tend to be the ones that drive the whole process. "Core values" per se.
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Old 29th-November-2016, 06:19 AM   #33
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I don't think it's a paradox.

A - does assign meaning and specialness to the act itself and considers it something they don't share with anyone. They may try casual sex, but will not feel comfortable with it, may feel empty afterwards (like it wasn't enough) or try to make more of it than it was. If they truly feel this way, then they will experience something special when they find that someone (although I don't believe in fated matches, so it can happen more than once.)

B does not assign meaning to the act itself. Casual encounters are to be enjoyed as physical pleasure. And it seems to be a fun activity the couple share when in a relationship. Because importance is not assigned to the act, infidelity isn't all that big a deal so can be done. You'd think they would feel different when it was someone special, but I don't think they do. The act itself loses that specialness for then, from what I can see.

(I don't think state b applies to everyone in the middle and is more two extremes that I've seen.)

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Old 29th-November-2016, 06:40 AM   #34
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

And also, maths note - it's not as common as it at first seems. Take the following example - we have 30 males and 30 females who can only have sex with people within this circle. 3 of them have sex with 30 people. Everyone else has sex with 5 people. For 27/30 of each sex, 3/5 of their partners (the majority) have been with 30 people, or 6 times as many as they have. This is why it looks like everyone is doing it.

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Old 29th-November-2016, 07:17 AM   #35
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Further musing as I debate whether or not it's too cold to get out of bed, the problem being I have to pee very soon. And go to work after that.

What if it's not about sex for either A or B? What if it's about the closeness to another person and that burst of oxytocin we feel at the time when we love someone? What if it's about exposing yourself, or feeling like you have, to someone?

My own thing about needing understanding and to like them; it's not about feelings or meaning to it as such. It's because I don't like or get on with most people. If I can't stop for an idle conversation, I'm not stopping for sex. It's their mind being that closer I find more daunting, if that makes sense. What's going on under someone's skull is a lot more a mystery and a lot harder to connect with than what's beneath their clothes.

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Old 29th-November-2016, 09:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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We create, destroy, and replace values all the time, or at least I do, and I'd expect intuitives to have a much faster turnover rate than sensors. They also get more complex
Absolutely. This is particularly the case with Ne vs Si. I get a little frustrated with it in myself sometimes. I need more constancy and stability in a mate, hence marriage to another NP would be undesirable. What development I've managed to my Si would be sent into regression in such a relationship I'd imagine.

Quote:
"Stay true to your values" because even with a high turnover rate, some will stick around from beginning to end and in my experience they tend to be the ones that drive the whole process. "Core values" per se.
And this is the other side to the coin. An ENP may be royally unreliable in general, but at least what you see is pretty much what you get.
An ISJ may well be the most stable and reliable type there is. But the dark side is the primitive Ne inferior. If they are somehow put in compromising contexts repeatedly, they're more vulnerable to straying from those cast-iron values than the ENP. And an ENP kept in a stable values context would make a wonderful mate for an SJ.
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Old 29th-November-2016, 11:35 AM   #37
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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And also, maths note - it's not as common as it at first seems. Take the following example - we have 30 males and 30 females who can only have sex with people within this circle. 3 of them have sex with 30 people. Everyone else has sex with 5 people. For 27/30 of each sex, 3/5 of their partners (the majority) have been with 30 people, or 6 times as many as they have. This is why it looks like everyone is doing it.
Did you take into account gay/lesbian sex?
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Old 29th-November-2016, 12:13 PM   #38
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

No, it was just a numbers thing. Simplified for easy understanding. I could account for same sex relationships, but it would make the example overly complicated. It was just meant to illustrate that it only took 3 people in the sample to change the perspective of everyone else.

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Old 29th-November-2016, 11:58 PM   #39
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Elaborate and relevant.

Spoiler:
Quote:
Like a few other INFJs I've seen on here, I had sex for the first time comparatively very late on - at an age where I'd obtained some level of (admittedly inconsistent) emotional maturity and self-awareness, and was thus introduced to sex from an entirely adult and analytical vantage point. This, I imagine, is more or less what happens when you lose your virginity at 28 as opposed to 16 - uncompelled by any rush to keep up with your peers or prove yourself to them, you are left with the time and internal space to navel gaze (possibly in the very literal sense of a sleeping partner's naked abdomen).

After a few sexual escapades with various partners, I've come to realize that I enjoy two utterly opposite types of sex, with the key separation, I think, being one of empathy - one is entirely enriched by a powerful sense of empathy, almost a bodily longing of telepathy, while the other functions as something of an "empathy break".

The first type of sex is typified by feelings of extreme closeness - of physical and spiritual union. It is slow, calm and patient. The primary objective feels to be the melding of bodies to the extent that I can feel completely her experience, and she feels completely mine - the zenith of empathy. There is a block to this, of course, since we will always inhabit two different minds, but with this type of sex its intra-body communication is something of a beautiful second option - while I desire a profound telepathy, to experience entirely the body of another from their own perspective, this is seemingly the best we can do, and profoundly and emotionally pleasurable because of it. It is not sex with an other - it is sex merging two others into a single whole.

The second type of sex is exactly the opposite. While the first was about the amplification of empathy, expanding its capability to its very limit, this feels like a break from empathy. I rationalize it like this: it can be extremely hard work empathizing with every person you see, shifting perspectives constantly to try to grasp every individual reality you happen to come into contact with. Sex, because it is so powerful, such an all encompassing desire, can be the opportunity to experience the lives which we never get to experience - for an INFJ I think then the idea of interacting with another person in a safe and pleasurable environment with your empathy switched off could be a highly enticing prospect. This type of sex then is the very definition of rough and dominating - even somewhat sadistic - instead of a union of pleasure it is two very separate pleasures, clashing and butting heads (and other things). There is biting, hair pulling, wrestling, slapping, spanking, choking - it is a complete physical euphoria brought about from no longer having to be so cautious of our actions, of trusting ourselves and someone else that nothing terrible will happen if we slacken our empathy and enjoy our physicality - simply, lust in its most base, animal form - a dual objectification, sex between two polar others, forever separate, but enjoying nothing more than their clashes and scrapes.

I find it occasionally difficult to reconcile the presence, and my desire, of the two. Most problematic is the fact that the first is almost overwhelmingly more pleasurable than the second (it is as if the second bites and claws all it can to achieve a similar point of pleasure), but the second is profoundly more easy to find - I can currently only imagine having that empathy-enriched sex with one or two girls, but could think of a dozen or so that I could enjoy the second type with. The disparity of pleasure though can mean that after the second type I am left feeling somewhat lonely and despondent - though it is a physical euphoria at the time it does not reach the same emotional heights, and I am left desiring nothing but the company of someone I could feel closer to, knowing full well that I would probably get more holding hands than I would a night full of rough, animalistic sex with another.

At the same time though I don't think I would be happy with just the first type - it is almost as if, because they are both facilitating entirely different needs, they are both distinctly important - there is just an overlap in the physical activity (no matter how different the experience, they are both still sex). At best I could find a partner who, like me, had similar separate needs - but I wonder about the presence of such a person in my life, as though I haven't had a great many sexual partners as of yet, I've found they fit distinctly into either category at least in terms of what I desire from their presence - either the sexual joining or the sexual clash. This is not to say such a person does not exist in my eye - and this is perhaps my own relative inexperience speaking (hopefully it is), and one day I find that enough sexual time with a person, and enough comfort, opens you up to more diverse sexual experiences with them (or alternatively you meet someone who you right away have this dualistic desire towards - which sounds pretty hot even as I type that sentence). It's just at this stage I find it difficult to reconcile that difference - how one night I want nothing more to experience the union of pleasure, while the other night I want nothing more than to hold them down and bite their neck hard - it is not impossible to imagine, just strange.


Ref: http://personalitycafe.com/infj-foru...her-infjs.html
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Old 30th-November-2016, 12:13 AM   #40
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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A perfect encapsulation of Ni-Se values. I wonder how well the average INJ relates to it in reality.
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Old 30th-November-2016, 01:05 AM   #41
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Destroy values according to which values? I guess an alternative which still includes shoulds would be to ethically reason without referencing any fixed values, and only holds these implicitly.

Regarding the particular issue, like you mentioned that this relates to, stay true to who you are and do what you feel is right, rather than giving into the pressures of the society you live in. The one who is right for you will be understanding of it, perhaps even share the same view.
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Old 1st-December-2016, 02:03 AM   #42
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

I took a 14 hour flight with no book, no movies, just sat with a pen and paper trying to reason through this.

Now I'm on vacation and its horrible. I can't enjoy myself because of how depressed I feel. This vacation is so important to me, I've been planning it for a long time. I don't want it to be ruined.

help..what do I do....I'll tell you what I'm feeling:

first, to clarify, the reason I'm worried about finding someone is not because I don't think I can find someone who respects my values. Most people I know do respect them, that isn't hard for me to find. My concern is not finding anyone who SHARES them. My BIGGEST fear is having sex not mean as much to them as it does to me. After putting my heart and soul into it, it would hurt a lot if they don't feel the same way about it.

1. Me & mystical connection guy (from my other thread) kept in touch and might see each other again. I want to experience sleeping with him so bad. But hes pretty nonchalant and promiscuous about casual sex - he says he desensitizes himself from the emotional part because he doesn't want to get feelings. But he said if he did it with me, he wouldn't want it to be desensitized because he wouldn't mind getting feelings for me. But I don't even know if it would be as meaningful for him as for me because after normalizing meaningless sex so much its hard to see how it can be as special for him still. But even if it could be special, still..every time I think of his attitude/lifestyle, I feel pain, heartbreak. I don't know, it just breaks my heart that he cares so little about something that I care so much about and want to share with him. I think the greatest pain I feel is thinking about his attitude, and also thinking of that attitude in other people in the public too. The best analogy is like how it feels watching someone slowly burn the one special gift you gave them to cherish into ashes in the ground.

2. I feel even pain toward myself. I hate the fact that I have to have this value/way of looking at things, and it is making me lose someone I care about. Whether I eventually find someone who shares my values or not, it is still a loss on my part because I lost a person that I wanted to be close to all because of this. I hate being in this position so much,

3. I feel jealousy toward mystical connection guy. He already experienced his meaningful sex when he was in highschool, now he's moved on to casual sex, he's gotten everything I've spent my whole life struggling for. His life is so simple ... he doesn't have to worry about all this.. he can BE WITH WHOEVER HE WANTS, he isn't limited by this like I am. He doesnt have to worry about having his partner care about sex less them him!!!! That is my biggest fear in life but he doesn't have to worry about that! How carefree he must feel, I wish I was like him. It is such a disturbing dissonance to be hurting over an aspect of someone while also feeling jealous over it at the same time. Hating something but wanting it. Its a sickening feeling.

4. All of these feelings toward him are translating toward everyone else. I can't happily walk down the street, meet people, do things, during my vacation. Everyone I look at, in my head I think "they probably don't care about sex either" and just feel sad about it. I feel that sickening feeling of hating how they are but wanting to be like them. I feel betrayed...if only they cared..if only more people cared..I wouldn't be suffering. I can't even do ordinary activities like go shopping, go to a bar, etc. Everything relates back to sex. What is the point in buying nice clothes and having a guy think I'm pretty if I'm never going to find a guy who shares how I feel and I'll just be hurt that he doesn't feel the same way. When I go to a bar, I see people trying to get laid, which rubs this entire issue back in my face. Even doing normal things like going to a museum, walking around, it is all empty to me. What is the point in life, where is the beauty, without having anyone to share the ONE thing you've sacrificed your whole life waiting for. Even if magically I find someone and won't be alone, still where is the beauty in a life so restricted that I have to limit my associations with people so much, where I have to cut out 70% of the population from my life and can't connect with them.

I just don't know what to do, I need to salvage my vacation
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Old 1st-December-2016, 04:10 AM   #43
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

If you do have a mystical connection to him I would think that it would on his part make him understand how much you care about it. I mean that if I had someone that knew me or that I knew them, that I would care about what they care about. I would not let it go just because I had no previous interest in it. I would make it part of me to cherish it because of the person I know who means so much to me. If a person means allot to me then everything about them matters to me also. The most important thing to them is the most important thing to me also.
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Old 11th-December-2016, 05:00 AM   #44
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Your intuition is largely correct. As a woman your sexual activity with men involves a merge (somewhat) of DNA. I think this is mostly a one way street.

http://www.rooshv.com/a-womans-body-...l-sex-partners

Insofar as your values these are more objective than you give them credit for. If you went about town fucking every man in sight there would be real consequences. If you gave up and started fucking women instead there would be different consequences. Essentially all we do comes loaded with consequences seen and unseen.

I see values in this way. Someone before me found out the hard way so I could avoid all that. Of course human superstition clouds the truth a bit and so does human ignorance and assertiveness (the times change crowd). My advice obviously is to not abandon your values. Rather, examine each one and decide what you're willing to do without. Be mindful of the consequences. Above all, do not listen to the whims of society when deciding what's right for you.
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Old 11th-December-2016, 06:57 AM   #45
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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Your intuition is largely correct. As a woman your sexual activity with men involves a merge (somewhat) of DNA. I think this is mostly a one way street.

http://www.rooshv.com/a-womans-body-...l-sex-partners

Insofar as your values these are more objective than you give them credit for. If you went about town fucking every man in sight there would be real consequences. If you gave up and started fucking women instead there would be different consequences. Essentially all we do comes loaded with consequences seen and unseen.

I see values in this way. Someone before me found out the hard way so I could avoid all that. Of course human superstition clouds the truth a bit and so does human ignorance and assertiveness (the times change crowd). My advice obviously is to not abandon your values. Rather, examine each one and decide what you're willing to do without. Be mindful of the consequences. Above all, do not listen to the whims of society when deciding what's right for you.
This is impossible ... I almost feel relief to think about changing my values. But when people tell me to stay with them and not listen to society I feel hopeless because there is no hope in this path. I can't handle being an outcast forever.

It is a decision between sticking with my values and being isolated and alone forever (I will never find anyone who feels the same as me. And even if there is a 1% chance of that, I'm still limiting my options to an extreme level and cutting myself off from every other guy)

Or

Changing my values and integrating
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Old 11th-December-2016, 08:00 AM   #46
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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This is impossible ... I almost feel relief to think about changing my values. But when people tell me to stay with them and not listen to society I feel hopeless because there is no hope in this path. I can't handle being an outcast forever.

It is a decision between sticking with my values and being isolated and alone forever (I will never find anyone who feels the same as me. And even if there is a 1% chance of that, I'm still limiting my options to an extreme level and cutting myself off from every other guy)

Or

Changing my values and integrating
I would like to say, it would be nice to hold you close to me. I really do understand what it feels like to think you will never have someone to be with. It's almost hard for me to say but I want your happiness to be my happiness. I had to let go of a lot of pain recently. You make me feel I'm not alone. I really want to help people like us. It is something I hold onto because I care. If I care enough I know I can help them. I want someone to be special to me. I truly want that for you too.
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Old 12th-December-2016, 03:44 AM   #47
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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This is impossible ... I almost feel relief to think about changing my values. But when people tell me to stay with them and not listen to society I feel hopeless because there is no hope in this path. I can't handle being an outcast forever.
Well it's up to you what you are willing to let go of. That was my point ultimately to not listen to society in either direction about what's important.

Sometimes you might find that you're being unreasonable. That's an easy trap to fall in, too. Circular reasoning in an echo chamber kinda thing. This is different than socially held values though. Peer reviewed experiences can tell you a lot about the pros and cons of choices.

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It is a decision between sticking with my values and being isolated and alone forever (I will never find anyone who feels the same as me. And even if there is a 1% chance of that, I'm still limiting my options to an extreme level and cutting myself off from every other guy)

Or

Changing my values and integrating

I don't know how you know you'll be alone forever. I'm much older than you and I can't say for certain if I'll be single 6 months from now. Life is weird. The difference for me is that I won't be bothered if I'm still single 6 months from now. It's actually got good things going for it.

I would feel like a total dipshit though if I jumped into a socially-pressured decision and wound up unhappy and stuck with it. Especially with all the evidence around me telling me not to do that.
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Old 12th-December-2016, 10:02 AM   #48
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I've changed my mind, let's destroy them all.
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Old 12th-December-2016, 10:22 AM   #49
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

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I've changed my mind, let's destroy them all.
And how did you come to arrive at this conclusion?

Personally, I will always keep the one base value - whatever both (or more) parties involved are happy to do together is OK. So, if she's not happy with anything, she's fine to say so. I'd expect the same of someone if I wasn't (although in reality I don't believe I've been given the same respect in return, but that's both a whole other thread of amusing stories and not something that actually bothers me.)
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Old 14th-December-2016, 12:04 PM   #50
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Default Re: are values valid? should we destroy them? (related to sex)

Just to clarify - the reason I feel I will be alone forever is not because I won't be able to find someone who respects my decision to wait. I know I can find that.

The reason is because even if someone loves me and respects my view, it will hurt me if they don't share it. The thought of sharing something that means so much to me with someone who doesn't feel the same about it is a very scary and painful thought.

I guess best case scenario would be to keep my view without feeling hurt over my partner not sharing it. Idk how that's possible though.

**also I haven't responded to everyone cos I'm still on that trip and can only slip on internet every now and then quickly
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