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Old 19th-May-2016, 11:42 PM   #1
Nick A
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Default 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Read this article on Truity that peaked my interest...

http://www.truity.com/blog/believe-i...0%99ll-rise-an

According to the graph they posted, over half of us make less than 30K and about a large portion of us don't have any type of income.

I'm sure there are holes we could find in the data, sample sizes used or some shit, maybe how exactly the testing was done but I've seen plenty of other articles like this also. Shit that typically leads off with ENTJs & ESTJs, of course, then us at the tail end.


What befuddles (Unneccesary but such a fun word to use... Lol) me, is that we're typically top tier in terms of IQ testing or whatever random MBTI statistics gathered on intelligence. How could a type perceieved as so intelligent, not have income that corresponds to that potential? Is there no relationship between money & intelligence? Maybe other factors like organizational skills & motivation play a factor. Maybe as the digital age & E-Commerce continues to evolve, our incomes will too because of income will require less people interacting & we'll have a larger stage to be rewarded for our creativite skillset?

Shouldn't Intellect=Success in school then = $$$ ? Of course not, lol

Anyways, I don't know...Just thought that was interesting and wanted to get some thoughts sparring in here on that topic. One more time, Befuddle.
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Old 19th-May-2016, 11:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

That's actually pretty good. 1 out of 2 INTP's are making more than a $14 wage. I was thinking there'd be less.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 12:06 AM   #3
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

INTP's are practically useless, what else is new? :P
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Old 20th-May-2016, 12:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Acquiring numbers and notes has less to do with intelligence in this age and more with ambition, determination, social proficiency, luck and in some instances a psychopathic disregard for the fate of nature and one's fellow apes.

(Yes, there are many instances of simple genius resulting in great wealth, but these are minor when compared to the number of gains made by corporate folk with average intellects in a business-minded world)

Intelligence branches in many directions, instead of success in academics it may lead to a disillusionment with the fine culture of scholastic conformity, with the intelligent person treading a path of artistry, vagrancy, gradual self-sufficiency or something else entirely.

To presume that the intelligent have a greater tendency towards capital gain may seem sound ceteris paribus, but reality does not fully measure up to that presumption.

The important thing to take into consideration here is that income does not always equal overall utility, a low-paid physicist or productive garage programmer can be, and have at many times been, of greater benefit to humanity than a venture capitalist, CEO or covetous politician.

Many an inventor have lived and died in poverty after someone stole their ideas for financial gain, ideas that propelled our species into the current age of erosion and electronics(the industrial revolution is fraught with tales such as these).
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Old 20th-May-2016, 12:35 AM   #5
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I think most INTPs pursue knowledge and creative endeavours for their own sake rather than with any particular end goal in mind, we are also likely to be more concerned with whether or not we will actually enjoy our chosen career than with the amount of money we can make.

Personally I'd rather make 30k a year doing something interesting than 100k doing something that leaves me wanting to shove my head in a meat grinder.
Couple all this with the fact that we are unlikely to go round blowing our own trumpet meaning we go largely unnoticed amongst our louder, more outgoing peers, something which can give others the impression that we are somehow less competent because whoever came up with the theory that over-inflated ego + loudness = competency must've had flawless logic.

Also far too many promotions happen either because the person in question has a good personal relationship with the decision maker or because they work in one of those professions where progression is pretty much guaranteed if you work there long enough. I have also wrongly made the assumption in the past that good work will always be recognized/rewarded before I came to the realisation that most employers only pay attention when mistakes are made or you just come right out and express an interest in climbing the ladder otherwise you may as well be invisible to them.

I like what Rook said, it's true that earning power doesn't necessarily translate into greater value to humanity overall but perhaps I just want to believe that to feel better about myself.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 12:55 AM   #6
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

30k is probably sufficient to meet all expenses.

What one should realy survey is which MBTI type puts the least effort into earning they income the require/want.

I'd expect INTPs would top that chart. And pretty much that is the chart that matters.
INTPs probably max out the cost-benefit relationship with work done-wants fulfilled

What is the use of becoming a billionaire if u use 60% of your lifetime doing it
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Old 20th-May-2016, 01:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I wish this thing had a 'Like' Button like on Facebook that way I could easily just go down the line and 'Like' everyone's responses. (Did I just reveal my laziness thus demonstrating why we typically have low incomes? Lol *Shrugs*)

Anyway, I think you all made some pretty solid points. Money doesn't always signify solid contribution to society; and I'd absolutely opt for passion/meaningful work over financial gain anyday.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 05:01 AM   #8
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Maybe INTPs should interest themselves in more practical things once in a while.


They can work hard and learn a lot when it interests them. They just do it in areas that are not necessarily items that are in demand for a capitalist market.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 05:54 AM   #9
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Quote:
Originally Posted by YOLOisonlyprinciple View Post
30k is probably sufficient to meet all expenses.

What one should realy survey is which MBTI type puts the least effort into earning they income the require/want.

I'd expect INTPs would top that chart. And pretty much that is the chart that matters.
INTPs probably max out the cost-benefit relationship with work done-wants fulfilled

What is the use of becoming a billionaire if u use 60% of your lifetime doing it
err yeah, but when you start to have kids you need more monies. But I'd wager INTPs probably don't care as much about having families either...which is kind of sad in a way.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 06:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I feel that there must be at least some practical usage for the concepts learned in philosophy, but no one has ever figured out what it could be. There is no "philosopher" job, but there should be. The knowledge gained is important, and although it remains theoretical, there must be some way to apply that knowledge.

I have an idea, an existentialist. Lots of people go through existential crises, which psychologists treat as "depression". However, a psychologist could refer someone with those symptoms to an existentialist (Ph.D. in existentialism) to talk to the person about it.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 10:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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I have an idea, an existentialist. Lots of people go through existential crises, which psychologists treat as "depression". However, a psychologist could refer someone with those symptoms to an existentialist (Ph.D. in existentialism) to talk to the person about it.
Yes, refer depressed people to insensitive nihilists and watch suicide rates soar. Sounds like an ideal solution to that pesky people problem we've been having
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Old 20th-May-2016, 02:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

The Disadvantages of Being Educated
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Old 20th-May-2016, 02:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I kind of lucked into a career (considering my official degree is English). I'm about 25 years into the job market and realized last week I'm considered "upper" class economically because I have a Grade 12 job in fedgov, based on where I live. But I have $15K in credit card debt, drive a 2004 car, and live in a modest apartment. My first full-time job paid me $19,500/annually.

Considering how aimless I can be, I just happened to be motivated by (1) kids [I needed the money] and (2) happened to be in a growing profession with a decent pay scale. I think if I lived life over again from scratch and hadn't had kids, I might have lived in the low end doing personal projects and art endeavors and crap.

I don't really care much for money except that it provides resources and opportunities that I can use to do things I like or explore. I went to an "almost-Ivy" college, but I was there mostly on loans and scholarships, and I felt little connection to all the bratpackers there whose parents would pay out of pocket for their tuition and give them new cars for Christmas. Grew up in a pretty depressed/rural area as well, so I was never really used to people with money. It's not really an end to itself in my view; it's just something to be traded for something more interesting. However, when you have almost none of it, then it "changes shape" a bit -- I had a crappy year due to an ongoing divorce and almost maxed out cards, was living off ramen, and lived in a tiny apartment with an actual hole in the outside wall, in winter. That was a new experience. Money there goes to make ends meet and nothing else, really. I know there are those who are even worse off, regularly.

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Personally I'd rather make 30k a year doing something interesting than 100k doing something that leaves me wanting to shove my head in a meat grinder.
Yeah, I could get up to a Grade 13 or 14 -- I have the ability -- but it's essentially management crap. (Well, I can get a technical expert Grade 13.) at which point I'd break six figures.

But do I want to? Not really. How much money do I need? And this is just a job. I'm not just not ambitious enough to care. If the work was something I was crazy about, then sure; otherwise, I'd rather conserve my energy and do what's needed in my current role and have the rest of my life to myself.


Quote:
Couple all this with the fact that we are unlikely to go round blowing our own trumpet meaning we go largely unnoticed amongst our louder, more outgoing peers, something which can give others the impression that we are somehow less competent because whoever came up with the theory that over-inflated ego + loudness = competency must've had flawless logic.
I've met some folks in my area who actually are competent. (The 14 above me is actually an ENTP guy, he's awesome -- cracks me up, and just a great person, and knows what he's doing.) But yeah, self-promotion? I do it when I need to, but it's not something I enjoy.

Anyway ,yada yada yada to all the typical stuff. It actually is "who you know" to a large degree, if only because you can't get a job if no one knows who you are; there's a cynical end to that, but basically the more well-known you are, the more you come to mind when there is an opportunity. People go for who and what they know.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 03:13 PM   #14
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

This reminds me of Tesla vs. Edison. Intelligence-wise I think Tesla wins hands down but Edison wins on business acumen.

INTP's are kind of like Tesla, we're pretty good on what we do but we don't have what it takes to lead and influence people (although this could be learned). Leaders and influential people tend to magnify what they can do (and also earn) based on the number of followers that they can field.

An INTP who can master leadership and communication would truly be unstoppable.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 03:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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An INTP who can master leadership and communication would truly be unstoppable.
A well rounder? I think if INTP ever mastered leadership/communication it would dilute their strengths, not to say they shouldn't learn any.

Also, the amount of money one makes is an objective measure of value, but value to humanity or (in of itself) is subjective. One deals with economics others deals with ethics.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 05:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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I'd rather conserve my energy and do what's needed in my current role and have the rest of my life to myself.
Love this, sums up my thoughts exactly. Also feeds back into my theory that expendituere of E= temporary decrease in external disorder therfore E= increase in S/t on an individual level... Meh still needs some working out.

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I've met some folks in my area who actually are competent. (The 14 above me is actually an ENTP guy, he's awesome -- cracks me up, and just a great person, and knows what he's doing.) But yeah, self-promotion? I do it when I need to, but it's not something I enjoy.
Yeah, not saying I haven't come across other types who are smart and competent, just that those who keep their heads down and get on with it without seeing the need for networking have a tendency to be overlooked. That reminds me, never trust anyone, i.e a colleague who tells you 'Keep your head down, get on with it and you'll do alright here.' chances are they see you as a threat.

On a somewhat unrelated note, aren't ENTPs just our more socially adept counterparts? Recently found out that Scorsese and Fellini are supposedly ENTP hence my lifelong fascination with both.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 05:16 PM   #17
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err yeah, but when you start to have kids you need more monies. But I'd wager INTPs probably don't care as much about having families either...which is kind of sad in a way.
Let me ask you a simple question.

A. Make 25-30k
Working as a part timer/ freelance programmer working at home for 20-30 hrs a week. Playing games whenever u like. Going out whenever you like. Sleeping as long as you like. Not having to fukin play office BS politics.
One could just literally wake up the next day and say, mhmm i want to go on a cycling trip/camping trip for a couple of weeks with my bicycle.
Free time per week is off the charts


B. Making 100k
Stressed out day in, day out. Working 10-12 hours a day. Working more in peak times.
Have to apply weeks in advance if u want to go anywhere.
Fret over being late to office everyday. Do something boring (ofc there will be fun parts too).
Your free time is literally just the weekends, and that too you could be expected to hang out with colleagues or office "fun" trips.
Any regular job requires you to hang out with people you dont like as well. And being sociable with people you dont enjoy is key for getting ahead too.



And what even is the difference between 30k and 100k??
In the current standards of living, we have ample opportunity to enjoy ourselves by doing minimal work.
It is almost not logical to work more than necessary, unless you literally dont enjoy anything else in life.
And also with the information-intensive work we do now, i dont see any real need to even "save" up for retirement. You will be productive well into your 70s-80s with improving medicine, imo



Remember, earning money isnt just about hardwork.
It is about trading off "time", limited time which we have in our lives.
Just because i can do something, doesnt mean i have to.
Is there absolutely any point in getting a promotion/ second car/ etc., in comparison to the number of hours we spend to achieve them?

imo, just earn exactly enough to take care of your needs. Cus, money is just a barter for our needs.
Is the second car worth using up 1000 hours of free time?
Is a week stay in a 5 star hotel worth 200 hours of free time, when you couldve stayed in a motel?
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Old 20th-May-2016, 05:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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Is there absolutely any point in getting a promotion/ second car/ etc., in comparison to the number of hours we spend to achieve them?

imo, just earn exactly enough to take care of your needs. Cus, money is just a barter for our needs.
Is the second car worth using up 1000 hours of free time?
Is a week stay in a 5 star hotel worth 200 hours of free time, when you couldve stayed in a motel?
For most people it's a status thing, they just can't bear to look worse off than anyone else. It isn't money that makes the world go round but insecurity.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 06:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I make 90k plus. The most stressful jobs I have ever worked were minimum wage.

Plus home life and my marriage are less stressful now because there is little to worry about in finances.

In capitalism, working harder doesn't get you a higher income. You get more pay by being the only one or few who has the knowledge, talents, or experience in demand by the market or industry.
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Old 20th-May-2016, 07:32 PM   #20
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Quote:
Originally Posted by YOLOisonlyprinciple View Post
Let me ask you a simple question.

A. Make 25-30k
Working as a part timer/ freelance programmer working at home for 20-30 hrs a week. Playing games whenever u like. Going out whenever you like. Sleeping as long as you like. Not having to fukin play office BS politics.
One could just literally wake up the next day and say, mhmm i want to go on a cycling trip/camping trip for a couple of weeks with my bicycle.
Free time per week is off the charts
Thing about this is that's it's not easy being a freelance programmer. How do you get your clientele? I imagine you have a very specialized skillset and references/experiences that makes people confident to choose you for their projects. That probably wasn't easy to get at the beginning.

Quote:
B. Making 100k
Stressed out day in, day out. Working 10-12 hours a day. Working more in peak times.
Have to apply weeks in advance if u want to go anywhere.
Fret over being late to office everyday. Do something boring (ofc there will be fun parts too).
Your free time is literally just the weekends, and that too you could be expected to hang out with colleagues or office "fun" trips.
Any regular job requires you to hang out with people you dont like as well. And being sociable with people you dont enjoy is key for getting ahead too.
yeah...I agree with you there, which is probably why I will never get that high in my career. After I'm out of the Army, I'd like to do different jobs here and there to make money. But again I have a skillset I've learned and developed.

Quote:
And what even is the difference between 30k and 100k??
In the current standards of living, we have ample opportunity to enjoy ourselves by doing minimal work.
It is almost not logical to work more than necessary, unless you literally dont enjoy anything else in life.
And also with the information-intensive work we do now, i dont see any real need to even "save" up for retirement. You will be productive well into your 70s-80s with improving medicine, imo
I agree with you to an extent. But I'd prefer to have lots of extra money that I can invest; so I have money to fall back on should something very unexpected happen and at the same time allows me to make money with money.

Quote:
Remember, earning money isnt just about hardwork.
It is about trading off "time", limited time which we have in our lives.
Just because i can do something, doesnt mean i have to.
Is there absolutely any point in getting a promotion/ second car/ etc., in comparison to the number of hours we spend to achieve them?

imo, just earn exactly enough to take care of your needs. Cus, money is just a barter for our needs.
Is the second car worth using up 1000 hours of free time?
Is a week stay in a 5 star hotel worth 200 hours of free time, when you couldve stayed in a motel?
well, sure. But then again if your job is something you are interested in or fully engaged in doing, it's very meaningful despite being a job. In that case, I don't mind working hard because it's the journey, as well as the end payoff that I'm after. But maybe that's why I've always been interested in engineering and science. I could spend all my time in a lab building something or researching and enjoy it, despite it being "work".
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Old 21st-May-2016, 03:10 AM   #21
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

INTJ scum here. I like working. I like making money.

People romanticizing poverty make me lul. Have fun with making $30k per year pursuing your part-time freelance developer dreams until you get sick and get hit with a $5k hospital bill (which actually happened to me recently - only stayed a few hours and did some pretty simple tests).

Fortunately I'm gainfully employed and have health insurance. I don't think the Peter Pan scenario of working 4 hours a day and fucking around for the rest took that variable into account...

I think the only people who really say these sorts of things have never actually had to provide for themselves or been poor.

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I have an idea, an existentialist. Lots of people go through existential crises, which psychologists treat as "depression". However, a psychologist could refer someone with those symptoms to an existentialist (Ph.D. in existentialism) to talk to the person about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_therapy
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Old 21st-May-2016, 10:56 AM   #22
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Not romanticising poverty per say, I just don't see the point in killing myself working to cover my ass in some hypothetical future emergency. I currently live paycheck to paycheck and usually run out of funds before the end of each month so I know what it's like to be poor but I make sure my rent's paid, any other little surprises that crop up have to be dealt with and sometimes when you're young and single with no kids, figuring out how to deal with those little mini-crises on the fly and generally living by the seat of your pants is what makes life interesting.

Luckily for me I live in the UK so healthcare hasn't been privatized as of yet and is still free so shock hospital bills are still a way off for us but yeah, I concede Absurdity has a good point to make however I would argue that you only need to stop being selfish and act financially responsible once and if you decide to start a family or have other dependents, while I'm still young and free I'll chase my silly dreams and live however the hell I see fit so stop pissing on my parade ya grumpy old sod.
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Old 21st-May-2016, 03:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

I believe good things comes naturally to nice people. Take me for example. I usually just do what I feel like doing. As it happens stuff tends to stumble upon me. Like a few weeks ago this guy had his timber log cabin on 95m^2 damaged by a water burner that caught fire, so there is a thin layer of ash here and there. Some damage in the room it started. Most of it can just be washed off. I'll probably sandblast it. Since I got it for free if I removed it quickly. Not nailed. So mostly just to take it down, and set it up somewhere else. Good as new. Value where I will set it up. Somewhere between 3-400k$ depending if I improve it. Cost, probably 20-40k exclusive work. He got a lot in insurance for a new hut, so unluck for some tends to be luck for others.

I'll probably rent it out for 7k$ a year when it's finished.

A project like this is basically just insurance. I presume one day it might come in handy.
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Old 21st-May-2016, 03:25 PM   #24
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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INTJ scum here. I like working. I like making money.

People romanticizing poverty make me lul. Have fun with making $30k per year pursuing your part-time freelance developer dreams until you get sick and get hit with a $5k hospital bill (which actually happened to me recently - only stayed a few hours and did some pretty simple tests).

Fortunately I'm gainfully employed and have health insurance. I don't think the Peter Pan scenario of working 4 hours a day and fucking around for the rest took that variable into account...

I think the only people who really say these sorts of things have never actually had to provide for themselves or been poor.
As someone who is providing for himself and have been poor, I totally agree with this. Medical bills hurt like hell.

Thank you INTJ scum .
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 12:29 AM   #25
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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Originally Posted by Absurdity View Post
INTJ scum here. I like working. I like making money.

People romanticizing poverty make me lul. Have fun with making $30k per year pursuing your part-time freelance developer dreams until you get sick and get hit with a $5k hospital bill (which actually happened to me recently - only stayed a few hours and did some pretty simple tests).

Fortunately I'm gainfully employed and have health insurance. I don't think the Peter Pan scenario of working 4 hours a day and fucking around for the rest took that variable into account...

I think the only people who really say these sorts of things have never actually had to provide for themselves or been poor.
Why is making 30K a year and having health insurance mutually exclusive?

Also Thoreau knew it best when he said, "Man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone." If health is not something he can afford to let alone, than he is poor. This is variable depending on your location, health, and other individual preferences.
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 01:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

It's easier to make lots of money than it is to be poor. INTP's are such dumbasses ...

Yeah hi, I came back and all I got was this stupid thread.
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 02:02 PM   #27
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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Originally Posted by Interdimensionist View Post
For most people it's a status thing, they just can't bear to look worse off than anyone else. It isn't money that makes the world go round but insecurity.
Thats why people need to start teaching kids the value of "absolute" joy, instead of "relative" joy.
You get GI Joe figure for birthday, and you should be happy to have an extra plaything, but instead you are made to feel envious about the neighbour who got the full set with tanks and stuff.

I too was like that, because of my upbringing, but after spending time alone and getting my arse burnt in internships and finance jobs, i kinda see things differently now

Envy and greed and comparison is good for the economy, it is good for your family. But i doubt it is good for you

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Originally Posted by Grayman View Post
I make 90k plus. The most stressful jobs I have ever worked were minimum wage.

Plus home life and my marriage are less stressful now because there is little to worry about in finances.

In capitalism, working harder doesn't get you a higher income. You get more pay by being the only one or few who has the knowledge, talents, or experience in demand by the market or industry.
Of course i do not mean menial jobs, especially as an INTP anything menial or laborious would be 100x worser than any full time job

Also, you discount the fact that to gain the knowledge and expertise you have to put in 1000s of hours of effort learning the job, being an intern, being a junior employee and so on, before you reach the peak.

You seem to only look at the marginal cost after all the sunk costs have been spent, before getting that 50$ per hour, you have to sink in 1000s of 10-20$ per hour in form of education and being the junior/assistant


And yeah, i was using a bit of a hyperbole when i was comparing the two cases, still..



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I agree with you to an extent. But I'd prefer to have lots of extra money that I can invest; so I have money to fall back on should something very unexpected happen and at the same time allows me to make money with money.
Yeah, thats why i plan on not taking any responsibilities- family, no sunk costs either.

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well, sure. But then again if your job is something you are interested in or fully engaged in doing, it's very meaningful despite being a job. In that case, I don't mind working hard because it's the journey, as well as the end payoff that I'm after. But maybe that's why I've always been interested in engineering and science. I could spend all my time in a lab building something or researching and enjoy it, despite it being "work".
I dont think i can like anything sufficiently enough to say it DESERVES 5000 hours of my time on it

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INTJ scum here. I like working. I like making money.

People romanticizing poverty make me lul. Have fun with making $30k per year pursuing your part-time freelance developer dreams until you get sick and get hit with a $5k hospital bill (which actually happened to me recently - only stayed a few hours and did some pretty simple tests).

Fortunately I'm gainfully employed and have health insurance. I don't think the Peter Pan scenario of working 4 hours a day and fucking around for the rest took that variable into account...

I think the only people who really say these sorts of things have never actually had to provide for themselves or been poor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_therapy
I dont romaticisize poverty, i just think what is and isnt essential in my life.
I dont make an effort to get the things which i dont find essential in my life.

Simple.

I personally like living a low cost lifestyle- gives freedom. And i dont plan on having a family either ever.
My monthly expenses run upto 400$, albeit i live in India

I think it is mostly from my gaming addiction days, when i used to spend all my internship money on gaming; and had barely 100$ per month for food because i spent a ton of money on gaming cafes, and didnt want to ask my parents for money. So, i sorta subsisted on really bland, roadside food, while being able to afford good food, but instead spending all the time after work on gaming (with 4-5 hours sleep).
Now i really dont buy anything these days.
I just dont spend money which isnt directly relevant to the thing i want

And also, medical is pretty cheap here, so maybe i dont see it as big of an issue.
There are tons of non-profit/ subsidised hospitals in major cities with excellent service, so theres that.

What do you mean getting sick? i dont see anything short of cancer or heart failure which could seriously destroy one's finances imo.

All im saying is if you feel you are earning what you want, there is LITERALLY no reason to compare with MBTIs.
And given how INTPs usually have less outside needs and status needs, it is kinda obvious we dont earn much, because to us the extra effort for the extra money isnt worth it.


I am by no means saying that earning a lot of money is stupid or anything salty in that way. It is just each person needs to take a personal decision on what he or she REALLY wants. And how much money they need to fulfill those wants.

After all, it is about finding the right effort to reward relationship

As INTPs most likely do this better, and also they tend to have fewer material requirements, this is what leads to lower incomes for INTPs. And also because we arent like some MBTI types who have to look and compare with the neighbour to feel happy, we tend to be happy with less, and as such spend lesser time earning that amount imo. The low income levels could just be a reflection of a better understanding of what drives us and being able to take an unbiased view on one's life
Thats all im saying.

People dont seem to realise that you probably have only one life
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 02:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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As INTPs most likely do this better, and also they tend to have fewer material requirements, this is what leads to lower incomes for INTPs. And also because we arent like some MBTI types who have to look and compare with the neighbour to feel happy, we tend to be happy with less, and as such spend lesser time earning that amount imo.
I agree with INTP's being happy with less, INTP's have a rather weak Fe which means we don't care much about societal norms. However, I don't agree with earning less nor your issues about "sunk cost". Ti seeks mastery and would be totally fine with spending some time doing so. We may not adhere to external goals but we have deep internal goals that may require development of skills/ training.


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And also, medical is pretty cheap here, so maybe i dont see it as big of an issue.
There are tons of non-profit/ subsidised hospitals in major cities with excellent service, so theres that.
Interesting, because it says here you only have 1.04% of your GDP for healthcare. Also the cite says 63 million of your people are driven to poverty because of the high costs of healthcare.

Also, your Prime Minister just conducted some drastic cutbacks in your country's healthcare plan.

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What do you mean getting sick? i dont see anything short of cancer or heart failure which could seriously destroy one's finances imo.
Dude, diarrhea is one of the top killers of your country. I think you don't even have to worry getting cancer or health failure if something that can be solved by access to clean water can kill you.
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 06:59 PM   #29
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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I agree with INTP's being happy with less, INTP's have a rather weak Fe which means we don't care much about societal norms. However, I don't agree with earning less nor your issues about "sunk cost". Ti seeks mastery and would be totally fine with spending some time doing so. We may not adhere to external goals but we have deep internal goals that may require development of skills/ training.
By sunk cost im referring to the comment by Grayman
Quote:
In capitalism, working harder doesn't get you a higher income. You get more pay by being the only one or few who has the knowledge, talents, or experience in demand by the market or industry.
Grayman says that hourly wages are highest at the end of the spectrum, allowing people to work less and have high income.
Im just pointing out he has ignored the number of hours which are required to create this talent and experience.
When you add in the hours spent in creating talent, you will find that the hourly wages you make at the end after spending time on specialisation is also for setting off of the sunk cost on learning and getting experience. Im just pointing out that hourly wages shouldnt be seen as a solo attribute

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Interesting, because it says here you only have 1.04% of your GDP for healthcare. Also the cite says 63 million of your people are driven to poverty because of the high costs of healthcare.
idk man medicines are dirt cheap here, and procedures are too.
Obviously that is why people from abroad come for "health tourism" here to get operations etc., done at low cost
it must be the low cost of medical labour, doctors in the West make a filthy huge amount in comparison. Also the pharma in west is super rich, while there are lots of subsidies here, and the Government basically points a middle finger at the greedy pharma.
So, even tho government spends less, the net effect might be higher. Atleast thats my theory.
Also, im talking about urban metro medical facilities. Medical facilities should be pretty sparse in rural areas.

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Also, your Prime Minister just conducted some drastic cutbacks in your country's healthcare plan.
No idea. But i see reddit posts about stuff like these often,

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c..._54_essential/

Quote:
Dude, diarrhea is one of the top killers of your country. I think you don't even have to worry getting cancer or health failure if something that can be solved by access to clean water can kill you.
You need to see the population who die of diarrhoea tho. A large part of our population is still illiterate. If you are illiterate with poor sanitation, i would presume higher diarhoea.
And diarhoea is such an easy disease to cure, the ones who die from it are most probably migrant labourers , slum dwellers, children of slum dwellers etc, who with their pre-existing weak immune systems due to lack of nutrition would probably may not be able to affor to spend even 50-100$ for medicine.
Also, a lot of the population is stupid and misguided, it is common for labourers to spend all their money for alcohol.
When all your mind is focused on getting the next quarter for the day, i doubt you think much about your child's diarrhoea/ health.

So, basically medicine is pretty cheap for the middle class, because the government tries to subsidize it for the poor, because if the prices were any higher the poor would simply be unable to afford it.
So, maybe that is why i feel healthcare feels cheap and easy in my country, because i might be part of the "entitled middle class", getting the healthcare which has been subsidised to the levels of the poor as well. In that way the inequality sorta helps me lol. Ive actually never thought about it that way.
Like i got all my permanent braces, and orthodontic treatment done at a private hospital for about 200$.
If i went to a Government Medical College it would be ~5$

Maybe it is all just an effect of competition (as opposed to super powerful lobbying by pharma in the west) and cheap doctors.
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 07:03 PM   #30
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

The lowest wage jobs I've had have been to most stressful. Food and retail aren't easy, and they both force you to deal with gobs of people on a daily basis. When I was younger and more lazy, I was ok with just making $14k a year with my part time delivery job. It gave me enough to just get by and gave me lots of time for gaming. The biggest problem that I often ran into, was how fucked I would be if any emergency came up. If my car broke down I would be drained of my funds in less than a month. If I got sick I couldn't afford to go ad get it checked out. Now, I'm concerned about savings for a home and retirement. Finding a good enough job to help support a family and use the left over funds to turn my property into a giant permaculture.

It doesn't shock me that 50% of INTP's don't make much money. I've known a lot of INTP dropouts and ones that went to school for a philosophy degree that can't find a job and are too depressed to go back to school and get a something that'll help them. Or they get stuck in academic jobs and never raise in the ranks, due to not wanting to play politics. The weak Fe in an immature intp, makes it hard for them to get promotions in other fields.

The INTPs that learn what it takes to advance in this world and can find a job they enjoy, are the ones that do really well. Also, they have to overcome nihilism. It's like every young intp goes through some nihilism and doesn't try to do anything with life. That's actually one of the most annoying things about this forum. So many big dreamers with no drive, that are easily defeated. Which contributes to the lower income. Saying they are content with their $19k, but are really just too lazy or scared to try something harder. (I'm not projecting at all...I swear )
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 08:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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The INTPs that learn what it takes to advance in this world and can find a job they enjoy, are the ones that do really well. Also, they have to overcome nihilism. It's like every young intp goes through some nihilism and doesn't try to do anything with life. That's actually one of the most annoying things about this forum. So many big dreamers with no drive, that are easily defeated. Which contributes to the lower income. Saying they are content with their $19k, but are really just too lazy or scared to try something harder. (I'm not projecting at all...I swear )
As INTPs I feel we're torn between desperately wanting to do something awe-inspiring and great with our lives to really make our mark on the world whilst at the same time realising that most of our achievements will be forgotten about once we're all long dead hence why we adhere to the 'try or no try, there is no point' attitude, suppose I'm really just pointing out the obvious here though as usual.

I think there's a whole myriad of reasons we don't pursue our dreams, off the top of my head I can see how I may be hesitant because I don't want to be perceived as egotistical for thinking myself to be above menial labor by some or because I'm insecure about my abilities, also it can be a bit of a downer having people throughout your life telling you to get your head out of your ass and take a reality check but fuck 'em.
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 08:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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The INTPs that learn what it takes to advance in this world and can find a job they enjoy, are the ones that do really well. Also, they have to overcome nihilism. It's like every young intp goes through some nihilism and doesn't try to do anything with life. That's actually one of the most annoying things about this forum. So many big dreamers with no drive, that are easily defeated. Which contributes to the lower income. Saying they are content with their $19k, but are really just too lazy or scared to try something harder. (I'm not projecting at all...I swear )
True dat, my friend.

Nihilsm is for teenagers and people without hobbies
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Old 22nd-May-2016, 08:28 PM   #33
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

@YOLO

In regards to all the work it takes to specialize yourself, I agree. I just thought it as something any INTP already does.


I went to a trade school which specializes more than a college and cuts the fat from wasted learning.

2 Years at a trade school and I make more than many people who have 4 year degrees.

Edit: By wasted learning I mean 'paying' for knowledge that you cannot use as a financial investment. If you want to learn these things on your own I applaud you, but don't pay for it.
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Old 23rd-May-2016, 12:28 AM   #34
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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No idea. But i see reddit posts about stuff like these often,
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/c..._54_essential/
Because those drugs are already public domain, the slashed costs are due to drug manufacturers no longer paying for patents. You also have an IP system that have er... "interesting" way of treating inventors but that's another story.

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So, maybe that is why i feel healthcare feels cheap and easy in my country, because i might be part of the "entitled middle class"
There you go. I think I now know why you have a rather rosy view of things.
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Old 23rd-May-2016, 12:40 AM   #35
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The lowest wage jobs I've had have been to most stressful. Food and retail aren't easy, and they both force you to deal with gobs of people on a daily basis. When I was younger and more lazy, I was ok with just making $14k a year with my part time delivery job. It gave me enough to just get by and gave me lots of time for gaming. The biggest problem that I often ran into, was how fucked I would be if any emergency came up. If my car broke down I would be drained of my funds in less than a month. If I got sick I couldn't afford to go ad get it checked out. Now, I'm concerned about savings for a home and retirement. Finding a good enough job to help support a family and use the left over funds to turn my property into a giant permaculture.

It doesn't shock me that 50% of INTP's don't make much money. I've known a lot of INTP dropouts and ones that went to school for a philosophy degree that can't find a job and are too depressed to go back to school and get a something that'll help them. Or they get stuck in academic jobs and never raise in the ranks, due to not wanting to play politics. The weak Fe in an immature intp, makes it hard for them to get promotions in other fields.

The INTPs that learn what it takes to advance in this world and can find a job they enjoy, are the ones that do really well. Also, they have to overcome nihilism. It's like every young intp goes through some nihilism and doesn't try to do anything with life. That's actually one of the most annoying things about this forum. So many big dreamers with no drive, that are easily defeated. Which contributes to the lower income. Saying they are content with their $19k, but are really just too lazy or scared to try something harder. (I'm not projecting at all...I swear )
Lot, thank you for this.

Given that we lack external motivators, I think we should find a means to get our internal motivators on track (I really think each INTP must have an INTJ buddy/significant other).
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Old 23rd-May-2016, 03:57 PM   #36
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

It doesn't help that INTPs often have such a wide range of interests, so it makes it difficult for them to just settle down with one job. Or at least that's what I've heard.
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Old 23rd-May-2016, 07:20 PM   #37
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It doesn't help that INTPs often have such a wide range of interests, so it makes it difficult for them to just settle down with one job. Or at least that's what I've heard.
We're basically that kid who wants to be a pirate one week then a soldier the next, then a cowboy, a scientist, a robot, a rockstar, a doctor then a lawyer until eventually we settle down and become either librarians or morticians.
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Old 23rd-May-2016, 07:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

^ The suckiest part about that (for me, at least) was that it made it really hard to commit to anything. When I can't commit, I have trouble just deciding to commit and end up sitting on the fence and getting NOTHING accomplished.

(Not-funny story is that when I graduated, I was given the option to hire onto Unisys as a tech writer but I wasn't sure if I wanted to do it so I wasn't offered the position because of my hesitance. So I ended up drifting into computer book editing because I had to take SOME job... and then guess what I ended up doing 7-8 years later as part of my overall career advancement? Yes, tech writing. I guess I could have skipped eight years of crap and low wages if I had just been willing to commit earlier. Oh well. But it still acknowledges that even my current career was something I more drifted into... and there are other things I wish I had chased after.)

Some careers, you can't switch to easily later, so then occupational paralysis becomes even more intense.
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Old 24th-May-2016, 10:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Highly questionable research.

1. You have low income -> more probability towards problems -> more inclined to wrong typings especially towards Pness and introversion.
2. See point 1 and it is measured by self assessment for everyone.
3. Continuing point 1 by specifying that there is cousin typology which says that INFJs (especially) and ISFJs are unlikely end up in highly paid job. Therefore get typed as Ps...
4. Successful people will type themselves more likely as Js. Successful ESTPs are highly likely to end up as J.
5. I think Ts end up more likely as Js J Fs will end up as Ps.

I mean my ESTJ brother gets ENFJ score which is totally laughable. My ESFP sister scores as ENFJ as well. I get INTP but I'm far from being Mr rational thinking type as default. I'm pretty much irrational when it comes to first function (100 % perceiving) Ti rationality gets back seat.
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Old 29th-May-2016, 02:17 PM   #40
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Survey data, especially income related is notoriously inaccurate as high earners systematically downplay their earnings while the converse is true for low income earners.
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Old 29th-May-2016, 02:41 PM   #41
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Oh man, that's gotta spell trouble for the one Myers-Briggs type that is even more useless than INTPs: their INP brethren, the INFPs.

Guess I should start training to live on the streets, where I'll eventually wind up...
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Old 1st-June-2016, 08:21 AM   #42
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

J-dominated usually earns more money than P-dominated.
E-dominated usually earns more money than I-dominated.
So...
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Old 1st-June-2016, 11:34 AM   #43
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

We're enlightened.
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Old 20th-July-2016, 02:49 AM   #44
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Nobody would hire me, I mean nobody. So, I had to find something I could do on my own. INTP's, people hate us for I do not know what for. Anyway, forever alone, trying to figure out how to survive in this universe. After spending four long years in Air Force I went in business with my father building commercial buildings. Then I decided to try something new, like speculating in markets. Sounds exciting, not ease. I did lots of thinking on the subject and decided on some form of judgment approach. The trend was the main thing to know at all times. I put stocks in their groups, made lots of comparisons with the trend chart, these things do not move together. It was a lone wolf experience which suits INTP's like myself. Charts are the key, reading these charts correctly. It is not magic, men are behind ever move in markets. It is forces, physics, pressure, resistance etc. It is to complex to go into on this forum. But I can create these charts, like an architect draws building plans. That chart is the past and I have to try to project my thinking into the future, right or wrong. You do make mistakes, misread your charts, but you want to be right more times than wrong to stay in the game. And I have my good periods, and when I am wrong, try to cut those losses short.
A little story, a market concept: A snowball rolling down a hill-starting very small at first, and then gaining size until it finally, as it reaches the bottom of the hill, gains proportions many times the original size. This is about the way the re-investment of income works out. Of course, good investment at start and along the way helps speed things up a bit.
Another thing: an insurance company insures 100,000 buildings, only a small % will burn down in a year. Same with investments, diversify, spread money around because of 'The Law of Averages.' You are not inside the basket where the egg is, you do not control it, so you spread your risk for safety, Therefore putting all eggs in one basket and watching the basket in not a good idea because I need to be inside the basket to be assured of success.
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Old 21st-July-2016, 06:07 AM   #45
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

Makes sense now. I always hated money. I do need to make it in order to survive in the city. But I hate it. Most of my random thought are towards how I could eliminate money...

Additionally was countless the times I gave something quite worth to someone.. like expensive guitar and hardware pieces. Things that I paid for, but still, I wasn't using, wasn't going to get what I would wanted if was to sell, and someone would be using more and with passion, why not give the thing ?..

One boss I had in my 18's , use to say to me - "Eventually you will need to start charging a decent price". But he never made the call himself. So you see, the commercial world has no tantrum nor rules, and not taking money seriously usually makes you inefficient at making it.

There was this quote from a movie of my country, a comedy one, that this guys says to his brother - "Liking poverty are for intellectuals".

Intellectuals don't have passion for money. Now the big $harks had literally kissed theirs.
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Old 23rd-July-2016, 04:47 AM   #46
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

TBH, if we looked at self-identified INTPs with a dependable person to financially leech, and sorted them by income, we'd probably see a correlation.

Most INTPs will do only what they must to live in reasonable comfort.

I can't imagine too many INTPs really allowing themselves to live in abject poverty, (as an income-less person would without someone to sponge off). I've been homeless. It's time-consuming, tedious, and utterly boring. Nothing to do but sit, walk, sleep, and talk. Seeing as we master all of those skills before we turn 3, it's a lifestyle lacking in mental stimulation.

Personally, I like money. You can buy time, freedom, and chocolate milk with money.
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Old 25th-July-2016, 03:22 AM   #47
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

The answer is pretty simple.

Any INTP worth their salt has figured out how unimportant money is to begin with. I grew up in poverty in America and it really isn't all that bad. As usual it's what you and those around you make of it.

Now I make a somewhat comfortable living but I've been slowly but surely planning my exit strategy from the rat race. Time is the one thing you simply cannot buy more of.

I enter this conversation with myself from time to time. It goes like this.

1. I want a new car.
2. The garage would look great attached to the house.
3. I want to renovate the house.
4. I want to build a fence around the property. So that my dogs get more of the yard.
5. I reconcile that none of the above will improve my happiness. Nor my dogs for that matter.

What will make me and my dogs happier? That's right. More time for me to do things unrelated to making money. Like going to the park Monday morning.
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Old 25th-July-2016, 04:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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Originally Posted by Yellow View Post
Personally, I like money. You can buy time, freedom, and chocolate milk with money.
Milkshake, it get's me every damn time. >.<

This addiction. Damn Candy. Gotta Stop.
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Old 25th-July-2016, 06:14 PM   #49
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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Originally Posted by Intolerable View Post
The answer is pretty simple.

Any INTP worth their salt has figured out how unimportant money is to begin with. I grew up in poverty in America and it really isn't all that bad. As usual it's what you and those around you make of it.

Now I make a somewhat comfortable living but I've been slowly but surely planning my exit strategy from the rat race. Time is the one thing you simply cannot buy more of.

I enter this conversation with myself from time to time. It goes like this.

1. I want a new car.
2. The garage would look great attached to the house.
3. I want to renovate the house.
4. I want to build a fence around the property. So that my dogs get more of the yard.
5. I reconcile that none of the above will improve my happiness. Nor my dogs for that matter.

What will make me and my dogs happier? That's right. More time for me to do things unrelated to making money. Like going to the park Monday morning.
I used to agree and still do so to some extent. But there is nothing wrong with simple hedonic pleasures from time to time as well. Minimalism can be nice, but I don't want to spend my life as a suffering monk believing that lifestyle will give me fulfillment. I missed a few opportunities in the past because of my lack of yolo.

Also, the problem that many INTP's may not earn the money they deserve can be a true unfairness, and moral relativism won't solve it. I know INTP's in general don't like complaining, but somehow we must still fight for our place in the world (read: not getting surpressed by stupid SJ's).

The aspiration of resources and status is one of the simple key elements governing human psychology. It can have nasty implementations, but on a macroscopic scale, it works quite well.
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Old 26th-July-2016, 04:57 AM   #50
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Default Re: 50 percent of INTPs make Less than $30,000

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I feel that there must be at least some practical usage for the concepts learned in philosophy, but no one has ever figured out what it could be.
That depends on what your philosophy is, what world milieu it arose from, what problems it was trying to solve, and what problems you are trying to solve. Any given philosophy may be well fitted to task. Or not. Strictly speaking I'm going to say your statement, "no one has ever figured out what it could be," is flat out wrong. People don't AGREE on what is practical about any given philosophy, is the correct statement.

Is your philosophy that you need to win a popularity contest? You need external social validation to chart your course in life? Anything that doesn't have X number of people in society blessing it as part of the beehive, isn't worthwhile?

Quote:
There is no "philosopher" job, but there should be. The knowledge gained is important, and although it remains theoretical, there must be some way to apply that knowledge.
You're saying you want money for wisdom you've acquired? Go write a self-help book. Become a motivational speaker. Or some kind of counselor. Or a religious guru or cult leader. Or an artist with a message. People do make money imparting their philosophies to other people, who do not have much in the way of philosophies of their own. Or maybe they do, but benefit from having them strengthened by input from more experienced voices. At some point the student has to leave the school though.

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I have an idea, an existentialist. Lots of people go through existential crises, which psychologists treat as "depression". However, a psychologist could refer someone with those symptoms to an existentialist (Ph.D. in existentialism) to talk to the person about it.
I think Albert Camus made plenty of money just fine. Maybe you should go read some biographies of his life. Particularly about his falling out with Jean-Paul Sartre about revolution and the Algerian question. They fought a lot about philosophies that should guide public action, the consequences of which would be many deaths, one way or the other.

Perhaps you haven't considered that philosophy can always align itself with politics. Take Capitalism. I'm smart enough as an INTP to realize that my income bracket isn't the be-all-end-all of how to function on Earth or leave a better planet for future generations.
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