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Old 9th-December-2016, 09:14 AM   #1
Cognisant
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Default Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Because reality is real otherwise it would not be reality.

By artificial I mean reality was not purposefully created because creation as an intended act requires a creator to have intended it. In turn this creator would have to be a thing that exists, otherwise it would be not a thing (i.e. nothing) or a thing that does not exist (i.e. nonexistent). If you think the creator is nonexistent or not-a-thing, congratulations you're an atheist, or if you think the act of creation occurred without intent but rather just happened, again congratulations you're an atheist.

By simulated I mean that though it is possible that what we perceive reality to be may be a simulation, for their to be such a simulation there must be something doing the simulating, otherwise what you have isn't a simulation but rather reality itself. This touches upon the idea that thought, awareness or consciousness somehow precedes existence, because if that were true what you're experiencing would be a simulation, a non-real reality that necessitates an actual reality to exist.

In order for consciousness/awareness/thought/etc to exist there must first be a thing to be capable of it, because how could nothing be conscious if there's nothing to be conscious, an entity cannot exist and not exist at the same time as existence and nonexistence are mutually exclusive states.

Finally lets address statements like "consciousness exists but not as existence is typically defined", that's just straight up sophistic/semantic bullshit, if you're redefining terms with paradoxical definitions then you're not explaining anything, you're asserting a paradox is true because it's a paradox and that's just bullshit.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 09:22 AM   #2
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

I thought this was obvious

I mean with all the meta-level theories of God/simulations/big bang none can adequately explain what came before that.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 09:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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I thought this was obvious
Take a peak in the concentration ca-aah-I mean the Faith & Spirituality section.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 09:48 AM   #4
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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I mean the Faith & Spirituality section.
But there it's usually under the assumption that theories are based on faith rather than solid reasoning. Well besides the argument that a metaphorical entity is reality itself which just makes it synonymous to reality.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 09:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Well besides the argument that a metaphorical entity is reality itself which just makes it synonymous to reality.
If an entity is metaphorical it does not exist and therefore its properties are moot.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Hmm, there is a point there. Existence itself even if in the form of a being/metaphorical existence would still be predated by reality itself. Since reality is only the "rule/concept" that existence exists and the question becomes what is the origin of the "rule" that something exists (including itself).

Quite the paradox, for reality to exist there must first exist reality.

Still leaves the question if you could call this phenomenon God or not.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:17 AM   #7
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Well to make the least possible assumptions either nothing exists, which obviously isn't the case, or everything does, because if something but not everything existed there would need to be a reason why that thing in particular exists when everything else doesn't.

So I assume that everything exists insofar as its existence does not create an existential paradox that negates the possibility of it existing.

The concept of a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god that exists outside of time/space, is not comprised of mass/energy and that created existence before it itself existed is very paradoxical.

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Quite the paradox, for reality to exist there must first exist reality.
Why is reality a prerequisite for reality?
Wouldn't that pre-existing reality just be reality?

Admittedly the fact that reality exists at all is astoundingly strange although I suppose if it was possible then it had to happen, although why it was possible is not something I can explain.

Edit: I suppose in the absolute nonexistence of anything that everything is possible because there's no reason why it wouldn't be.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
Well to make the least possible assumptions either nothing exists, which obviously isn't the case, or everything does, because if something but not everything existed there would need to be a reason why that thing in particular exists when everything else doesn't.
But the only thing that needs to exist is the concept of existence itself what encompasses within that concept doesn't matter, existence wouldn't care what, well existed within it.

And what is "everything exists" even supposed to mean.

Also reality is annoying. <.>
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:26 AM   #9
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

silly cogy

God is inside you. Imagine a void, pure slick calm and still blackness. Next you must intend for something to exist inside this void. A watermelon perhaps. Now that you've got that down ask her to appear to you. Does she seem real? Does she act like she has intentions herself. I only saw her briefly but she was a real person. And she was me. It may seem dumb to you but you look for her in the wrong place. Yes matter must order itself and therefore intelligence must evolve otherwise God would not know what to create. Random shit would happen like pinecones floating in thin air. But mostly intelligence needs a world to be like the world to know things such as auto mechanics and computers. Diversity can't just happen. I mean if God wanted to at the beginning create a universe full of toasters and nothing else why would she do that? How would she know what a toaster was and why only toasters? Totally random I know. But now that the process is complete she can do such things but not from matter. She can look into the void and envision what it is she wills to do. We all should know by now what intention can and cannot do. Thy will be done so to speak. So why not. God is here now inside of us. She does what she pleases. She creates worlds in her mind. From the void All is All. It is inevitable that Gods will is to happen. She is here now and ever expanding. And as computer power ever increases we can join her and create anything we want from her mind as Gods true intentions.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Quote:
But the only thing that needs to exist is the concept of existence itself what encompasses within that concept doesn't matter, existence wouldn't care what, well existed within it.
A concept is not a thing but rather the state of a thing, like the bits in computer file.
Our concepts are the synaptic connections between neurons in our brains.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 10:35 AM   #11
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
A concept is not a thing but rather the state of a thing, like the bits in computer file.
Our concepts are the synaptic connections between neurons in our brains.
A concept is the abstraction of a definition of something that could exist(in this case the concept of existence itself) and would conceptually exist even if it was never thought of.

Maybe everything non-paradoxical could then exist as a concept rather than actual matter? I could accept that.

Though I would never know what would be existentially paradoxical since such a concept wouldn't be able to exist. Existential paradoxes can by their very nature not exist after all?
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Old 9th-December-2016, 11:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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A concept is the abstraction of a definition of something that could exist(in this case the concept of existence itself) and would conceptually exist even if it was never thought of.
No, it would not.
Information does not exist independent of existence, the potential for it to exist may exist in its absence but that potential is a property of things that do exist, like the arrangement of beads on an abacus or grains of sand in a sandcastle.

Quote:
Maybe everything non-paradoxical could then exist as a concept rather than actual matter? I could accept that.
So they exist when they don't exist? Don't be ridiculous.

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Though I would never know what would be existentially paradoxical since such a concept wouldn't be able to exist. Existential paradoxes can by their very nature not exist after all?
Correct.

Edit: I don't mean to validate the notion that the concept of a existentially paradoxical thing cannot exist, only the existentially paradoxical thing itself cannot exist and that there are an infinite number of such impossible things we will never think of or even be capable of thinking of.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 11:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
No, it would not.
Information does not exist independent of existence, the potential for it to exist may exist in its absence but that potential is a property of things that do exist.
But doesn't that potential count as an existence in and of itself? What I am trying to say is that a concept(you can use another word, that's just semantics) is information that could exist even if it presently doesn't but because it could exist it's part of reality and therefore exists.

Note I am talking about the information/potential itself not what the information/potential refers to, so a concept of a God can exist without the God itself existing.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 11:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Note I am talking about the information itself not what the information refers to so a concept of a God can exist without the God itself existing.
Yes, although if nobody had the concept then the concept itself would not exist either.

Concepts only "exist" in people's minds.
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Old 9th-December-2016, 11:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Originally Posted by Animekitty View Post
silly cogy

God is inside you. Imagine a void, pure slick calm and still blackness. Next you must intend for something to exist inside this void. A watermelon perhaps. Now that you've got that down ask her to appear to you. Does she seem real? Does she act like she has intentions herself. I only saw her briefly but she was a real person. And she was me. It may seem dumb to you but you look for her in the wrong place. Yes matter must order itself and therefore intelligence must evolve otherwise God would not know what to create. Random shit would happen like pinecones floating in thin air. But mostly intelligence needs a world to be like the world to know things such as auto mechanics and computers. Diversity can't just happen. I mean if God wanted to at the beginning create a universe full of toasters and nothing else why would she do that? How would she know what a toaster was and why only toasters? Totally random I know. But now that the process is complete she can do such things but not from matter. She can look into the void and envision what it is she wills to do. We all should know by now what intention can and cannot do. Thy will be done so to speak. So why not. God is here now inside of us. She does what she pleases. She creates worlds in her mind. From the void All is All. It is inevitable that Gods will is to happen. She is here now and ever expanding. And as computer power ever increases we can join her and create anything we want from her mind as Gods true intentions.

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Old 9th-December-2016, 12:13 PM   #16
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Old 1st-January-2017, 11:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Well, all we can truly know is that things do exist and we will have to live with that and be satisfied that we are here and can work with what we have.
The only way I can possibly think of for existence to happen is that it just happened from nowhere, spontaneously somehow. Also, any concepts would come after the creation of matter and existence when the matter interacts with other matter to create information, which in turn makes the concepts.
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Old 3rd-January-2017, 03:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Glorious, seeing a developed mind in action makes me happy that i joined this forum. I was doubting there was competent minds here. I am now wrong.

Reduce the resolution a bit on those images.
It will deter people from reading your statement, which was noteworthy. I saw the images loading and almost used my "fuck this, drop the data transmission button."

If you ever want an audience to listen to new theories or need a debate opponent. I'd volunteer my time.

You sir, i have labeled as "Potential Friend Material."

Why in God's name (He hasn't given me his name or introduced himself) are you using windows?
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Old 3rd-January-2017, 05:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

There is a difference between the reality which we observe, and the truth of reality.

The modifications made on our field of experience - everything we see and know about the world - is temporary, and almost is like a simulation. This simulation is made on the truly subjective, which is still reality but not the reality that we can touch, nor the reality that does the touching, but the reality in which it is embedded.

So when we speak of reality being simulated, we are not speaking of all of reality, but of our physical universe - certainly, beyond this simulation are more 'real' layers of reality.
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Old 3rd-January-2017, 05:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

You know this how?

Are you high, mentally ill, religious (whoops tautology) or just in denial because you lack the mental fortitude to grow beyound the childish notion that your life is somehow more than an insignificant speck on an insignificant speck orbiting an insignificant speck in an uncaring universe?
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Old 3rd-January-2017, 06:06 AM   #21
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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You know this how?

Are you high, mentally ill, religious (whoops tautology) or just in denial because you lack the mental fortitude to grow beyound the childish notion that your life is somehow more than an insignificant speck on an insignificant speck orbiting an insignificant speck in an uncaring universe?
Well, I think I've mentioned several times that I'm mentally ill.

It's just the way I see the world - that there is a non-physical aspect which experiences the world, and the experiencer is distinct from the experienced.

I see no use in seeing my life as an insignificant speck in an uncaring universe. Where does this attitude get me? I see my life as valuable because it is what I experience, so it is what I know. I know that there is a world around me, but only because it is experienced by my mind as real.

So, I guess if I were to look at how my existence is perceived by the world which I perceive, then there would be only something very small there, but I am not experiencing myself as one person among many, I experience myself as THE person among many, as does anyone else (even if most wouldn't phrase it that way).

Certainly there will be problems connected to my tendency to see the world in this almost mystical fashion of significance and layers of reality, but all in all I see little wrong with it.

You may not be spiritual yourself - but why be denigrating to those who are?
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Old 3rd-January-2017, 01:30 PM   #22
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

Because spirituality leads to superstition which is institutionalised as religion.
There is no greater blight upon humanity than the abandonment of reason that is faith.

Lets all be awesome to each other, except those guys because their funny hats are slightly different to our funny hats and therefore our loving deity the paragon of all that is good says we must kill them because they are evil and we are good.

So uh yeah I'm against that, and y'know racism, misogyny, pedophillia, inquisitions, holy wars, ritual sacrifice, bodily mutilation, profiteering institutions that don't pay taxes, suicide bombing, forced suicide, cutting people's heads off, cannibalism, denying children professional medical care on the basis of faith healing, suicide pact cults, brainwashing children, wilful ignorance, oh and door knockers fuck those guys.
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Old 4th-January-2017, 09:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Because spirituality leads to superstition which is institutionalised as religion.
There is no greater blight upon humanity than the abandonment of reason that is faith.
I agree that the abandonment of reason is a blight upon this world. Although I would not expect everyone or anyone for that matter to be perfectly reasonable due to the interference of emotions - a possible explanation for "blind faith".

As for the existence of God, I do not see how it is possible to either prove or disprove his/her existence. Is it possible to disprove the existence of a God that is NOT all powerful , all knowing or any other "all" category; just a being that is probably more powerful, knowledgable, etc than us ?

Lastly, if existence came into being a certain amount of time ago then what happened before existence existed ? Or did existence always exist ?
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Old 4th-January-2017, 11:30 AM   #24
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

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Because spirituality leads to superstition which is institutionalised as religion.
There is no greater blight upon humanity than the abandonment of reason that is faith.

Lets all be awesome to each other, except those guys because their funny hats are slightly different to our funny hats and therefore our loving deity the paragon of all that is good says we must kill them because they are evil and we are good.

So uh yeah I'm against that, and y'know racism, misogyny, pedophillia, inquisitions, holy wars, ritual sacrifice, bodily mutilation, profiteering institutions that don't pay taxes, suicide bombing, forced suicide, cutting people's heads off, cannibalism, denying children professional medical care on the basis of faith healing, suicide pact cults, brainwashing children, wilful ignorance, oh and door knockers fuck those guys.
i.e. because slippery slope

My spiritual approach has nothing to do with any of that.
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Old 4th-January-2017, 04:06 PM   #25
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Default Re: Reality is Neither Artificial nor Simulated

The moderates pave the way for the radicals.

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Lastly, if existence came into being a certain amount of time ago then what happened before existence existed ? Or did existence always exist ?
Hard to say without a solid definition for "existence", it could well be that all possible existences exist simultaneously and what we experience as time is meaningless in that context, like how the concept of self is important to us as individuals although if you really get down to it we're just chemistry.
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