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Old 26th-July-2016, 09:29 PM   #1
hopeless85
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Default Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

I don't know where to begin...

I guess like many INTPs I have a tendency to regurgitate all even remotely available information when it is not necessarily necessary....

Here are the facts:

I am 30 years old.

I have a Masters Degree in Economics, though its from a college in Sweden no one has ever heard of. I have a BA from a liberal arts college here in the US because of course i was a typical millennial idiot thinking that would actually mean something and ended up 80K in debt. It is now down to 24K but still obviously high....we came back to the US specifically with the hope that we could erase that quickly with higher salaries.

I lived in Slovakia working some corporate jobs and even got some recommendation letter/references. I butted heads with all of my bosses--I hate authority, but we often learned a way to work together and as I mentioned they all grew to like me and respect what I could do. Some of them even really liked me.

My "work" is statistical modeling, particularly with an emphasis in Marketing.

I have been back in the US with my wife now since last October, I have been unemployed almost the entire time except two jobs which were disasters. She got a job in two months and still has it. If you do the math that is--as of now--10 months of being unemployed with about 5 weeks employment at the first job (a marketing agency) and just 3 weeks at the next one (a non profit). Of course I have had dozens of phone screenings and I guess something like 7 or 8 in person interviews through all of this as well. I also had a job offer that I rejected after further communication with the employer gave me a bad vibe.

I had problems with anxiety and depression my senior year of high school and for some of my time in college. This last job, I was being treated so terribly the night before my last day major panic attacks came back and this time, unlike for many years, I couldn't fight them off.

I have no idea what to do and am completely lost....

My "work" is doing statistics and predictive modeling with statistics, though I also worked in finance and as a magazine editor.

What is the problem? I have an overarching theory but don't know how to mitigate it. There were differences in both jobs but some aspects which were similar.

1 The business culture here is VERY authoritarian. In Europe, sure your boss is your boss and ultimately he or she has the final say but you are expected to challenge him a bit and he is expected to be clear and transparent with you as well as mentor you and help you grow professionally. He/she will consult with you and ask your opinion on areas where you are the expert. Maybe I have just been unlucky, but what I have encountered is totally different here. The boss is really like a king, not to be questioned, who doesn't care about supporting or developing you, doesn't care about treating you with any decency, and who is always right no matter what. I might just say this is bad luck, but the organizations they worked for supported them in this so it isn't just them. The organizations at least also "believe" in this.

2 Point 1 just is really screwed up and is a problem no matter what, but given what I do it is an even bigger problem than for someone else. If you are a construction worker and you join a team and a foreman tells you what to do. He knows something about construction and was likely a regular worker like you once. But the people I work with don't know anything about data analysis or statistics except what they read two weeks ago in a Forbes article. This could be minimized as an issue if they worked closely with me so I could help them to make the decisions which made sense in the context of the "data reality" but they don't. They completely ignore my opinion and just pick out of thin air project goals or make promises to others which have no basis in reality. And you might be thinking, "why not warn them?" Well....given that some behavior like this was something I experienced before I was EXTREMELY proactive.

In one interview I took the guys watching me step by step through a data research problem and included time projections and necessary prerequisites. You can imagine that then after they hired me they completely ignored these. And for the other job I was specific with the interviewers that the number 1 priority for me was a collaborative and transparent team. I was, if anything, naively honest to the extent that one would expect that they would reject me out of annoyance at my preoccupation with this need. I spent nearly AN ENTIRE HOUR describing interactions and relationships with previous managers and team mates to illustrate clearly what I was looking for. And they conveyed to me that they believe in this too and that they were pushing for this throughout the organization.

One mistake I will admit--but I won't be too hard on myself for because they were turning the tables on me so much it would be hard for me to have concentrated on really determining this--was my new boss didn't know anything about BI, Data Analysis, Statistics, Visualization--you name it. I did probe him a little on it but not enough to really verify. The irony was one of the reasons I took the job was because I thought he knew what he was doing so I thought to myself, "ok even if the org is resistant and messed up he and I can work together."

Unfortunately, I learned relatively quickly that I was wrong and he knew virtually nothing and actually became an immediate adversary (also it became clear he was an ISTJ) lolololl...you couldn't make this stuff up.....so there I am 2.5 weeks later, sitting in the same room where I was interviewed with two of the same three people who interviewed me responding to my email that I said if things didn't improve that I would leave trying to spin all of it on me. It was unbelievable. I still...a week later...can't believe it happened.

So it could just be random but I suspect it isn't. One of the managers I spoke with said something that I didn't pay attention to when he said it, but later experiences indicated that maybe there was something there. He said, "People really have trouble understanding you." Now he is particularly dumb. But I think there was some truth to it in that some people understand me and are like...that is AWESOME and then some people don't and just don't say anything or i guess later try to destroy me or whatever.

(To be fair to myself, I tried explaining some of the stuff to my mom, who doesn't have a degree in anything and she got it so really I don't think I speak too much above others)

It is so funny because I gave presentations and workshops in Europe to people for whom English is not their native language and had few problems but I can't get through to local native speakers. In fact, I was complimented on my ability to explain intricate topics in a way non experts could understand. So I am not sure if people are just so much dumber here (at least where I live) or it is actually their ego just blocking comprehension or what...but I suspect that is part of the problem too.

So what can I do? My confidence is at an all time low and I am so indescribably desperate. Honestly, my wife is the only thing which keeps me going.

A programmer friend of mine suggested learning some Machine Learning stuff because he thinks I could then find some remote work with people who are more technical. Maybe...I started a course in it. It is also prob useful because stats are old news whether I like it or not .

So should I do that? Should I give up and go back to Europe and hope to get a job again and live a small meager life paying the debt for 20 more years with my wife? Seriously....I don't even know what to ask. Is my theory right? IS there more to it? Was I just unlucky? If so how do I move on? I mean...I am rambling but I am so confused and depressed and I just need major help.....pls.....
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Old 19th-September-2016, 04:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Seems like you really struggle with interpersonal people skills, which is a big part of a typical office environment.

Have you ever considered using some of the freelance websites where people hire you online to do specific project work?

It seems like your skills would be in demand, and you could perform them without having to actually talk to anyone.

Having some successes might boost your confidence, which could lead to a full time job, or you may find that you like the freedom and flexibility of doing online freelance work.
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Old 19th-September-2016, 05:02 PM   #3
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

I don't understand what you do, so I am somewhat at a loss. However, I know our personality type saturates in data and then analyzes and perceives. Is it possible that, for the purposes of the jobs you've tried here, you are amassing more data than the suits higher up feel is necessary for the projects at hand? That is, are you overdoing it, both in the data accumulation and in explaining what you're doing? AND, coupled with your need to work collaboratively, is you detailed explanation of what you're doing actually coming across as ego? If your explanations are insistent and detailed, someone who only wants results could find that tedious and self-indulgent. Or perhaps too much like a teacher trying to explain things to a not-so-bright student, which could come across as condescending.

Or I could be completely wrong, I'm not asserting a credible analysis here, only tossing out some observations and perspectives from my own experience that might jiggle your brain. :-)
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Old 19th-September-2016, 05:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Also, there was a sit-down you mentioned prior to the end of the second job in which you were told things had to change. What, exactly, did they want you to change? Were there any specifics? I had to be on the "sending" end of that situation a few times, I always laid out specific behaviors and outcomes that were desired along with specific explanations of what the unacceptable activities were. I know not everyone does that, but it's good management if you really want a change.
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Old 21st-September-2016, 07:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

I feel your pain. I'm 24, currently living in Houston Texas. I decided a change of scenery from upstate NY into a fairly populated city that isn't NYC (I hate that place) might do me some good. I have a B/S in finance and would like to become a financial analyst (currently working towards CFA) , but I can't hold any of these BS entry level jobs due to them being so people oriented and my resume looks terrible because of it. I've had 3 jobs since march that I've quit despite needing money to survive because I knew I couldn't excel in them and I was going home feeling miserable. I think I may just do some hard mindless labor so I can think about whatever I want to while I work and keep chompin the bit for the CFA. In my free time, do some valuation projects. It is hard working in offices with people who are "results" oriented (which they always say, but act in a contradictory manner). because they were spoon fed bullshit from their boss about what success in each role is and use dull metrics to track success. I also have a hard time in interviews, I am sick of speaking with HR people who want to talk about frivolous matters such as company culture, if I know how to use pivot tables on excel (because I guess that's what advanced excel skills mean to these people). Just ask me some questions relevant to the job, your company culture is a facade to counteract law suits and nothing more. Sorry for the rant, I'm just blowing off steam because I'm wrapped in this vicious cycle. I will say that I worked as a mailman previously and thoroughly enjoyed it. Unfortunately I was fired because somebody backed into the mail truck while it was parked and I got canned because it was considered an accident with my first 90 days. My suggestion is some mindless work while you can develop ideas in your head and free time and potentially tun them into a career. Perhaps data entry or physical labor. Good luck out there, we'll need it.
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Old 21st-September-2016, 07:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

"I will say that I worked as a mailman previously and thoroughly enjoyed it."

Trash collection for me, summers in high school and college. It served much the same function plus gave me muscles. :-)

Human resource departments can be good or bad. I've had all bad. It always seemed to me that a lot of the "office culture" stuff was the same crap I found appalling about high school pep rallies and cheerleaders. Teams - cooperating humans assembled around tasks - work out their own culture, on the basis of shared experiences. The more intense the experience, the tighter the bonds that form. No cheerleading necessary.
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Old 22nd-September-2016, 03:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Sorry, but you have a problem? You have a background in statistical modeling for christs sake - your friend is right - you could be sitting where ever you wanted with a little self application. Anecdotally, if you were a known ML data scientist say (not a big step from the stat modeling) you could get $400/hour contract work.

Look - just come up to speed on machine learning and find work in that field (which is trivial right now), you'd be making serious bank and love the work to boot. Leave the "Please help an INTP find work" posting to folks who need it.

Quote:
The business culture here is VERY authoritarian
Where, everywhere in the US, in all fields? Maybe in finance, not in 99% of engineering (hint - ML) jobs. Look, get out of finance - those guys are SJ hard-on nut cases, come over to the engineering part of society (the guys that actually do something useful) and you'll get (nearly) all the autonomy you crave.
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Old 22nd-September-2016, 07:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

2 weeks in and you demand changes or you leave? Srsly? Of course they dont understand you. Respect such as what you are expecting is earned with time. Simply being smarter and right doesn't make people listen and respect your opinion.
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Old 22nd-September-2016, 04:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
come over to the engineering part of society (the guys that actually do something useful)
Engineers seemingly forget that without a financial market, they would all be at home solving sudoku puzzles.
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Old 23rd-September-2016, 05:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

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2 weeks in and you demand changes or you leave? Srsly? Of course they dont understand you. Respect such as what you are expecting is earned with time. Simply being smarter and right doesn't make people listen and respect your opinion.
Yeah, this ^

It doesn't matter if you are literally the son of God with Judging types because they can think the sky is purple and if you haven't established yourself they will never listen.
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Old 23rd-September-2016, 02:10 PM   #11
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Quote:
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Engineers seemingly forget that without a financial market, they would all be at home solving sudoku puzzles.
Sorry don't mean to offend, I forgot you worked in finance. And yes of course, finance is the grease that keeps society running as the saying goes. And if that was just it there would be no complaints. In the old days the banker had the biggest house and the best hours, for doing very little, but that was more or less OK. What's happened to the finance side of the equation now? It's gotten too big and out of control. It takes too much money and produces too little for that.
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Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
I don't see emotions as something that need to be controlled, they're just information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starjots
Because I think the Singularity is much more interesting than the Rapture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaSurfer
I don't really care to act against my nature anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky
Discovery channel is like introductory porn for INTPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Minsky
I probably wouldn't go skydiving anyhow because my time is too valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8151147
Coding is fun, how the hell you can live without it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E404
Sometimes the hardest part is knowing what I actually want and allowing myself to want it...
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Old 23rd-September-2016, 08:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: Absolutely Job/Career Desperate!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Sorry don't mean to offend, I forgot you worked in finance. And yes of course, finance is the grease that keeps society running as the saying goes. And if that was just it there would be no complaints. In the old days the banker had the biggest house and the best hours, for doing very little, but that was more or less OK. What's happened to the finance side of the equation now? It's gotten too big and out of control. It takes too much money and produces too little for that.
No offense taken. Im getting used to getting the usual "you guys are just shuffling numbers back and forth".

The number of people doing pointless things in finance is rapidly being reduced at the moment though, due to the proliferation of algorithms, machine-learning and various technological advances.
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