More than one Dom function?

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

and the subject of this thread is just stupidity to the max!

you could only have 2 equally dominant functions in your first 2 functions.
you could have Ti-Ne balance, being between an ENTP and INTP.
or in general: balance in Ti/Fi-Ne/Se or Te/Fe-Ni/Si

I was under the impression the second function was called a secondary or, more pompously, an auxiliary function.

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by snafupants

I was under the impression the second function was called a secondary or, more pompously, an auxiliary function.

yes so what?
the 1st is called primary
the 2nd is called auxilary
duh

[ObliviousGenius]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

and the subject of this thread is just stupidity to the max!

you could only have 2 equally dominant functions in your first 2 functions.
you could have Ti<>Ne balance, being between an ENTP and INTP.
or in general: balance in Ti/Fi<>Ne/Se or Te/Fe<>Ni/Si

that would probably be very scarce, to be in such an exact balance, but there might be quite a few less extreme stereotypical INTPs/ENTPs which are closer to the middle line.

for the newbies, learn about the way the functions are designed by jung, the creator of the model:
there are opposites in the model of the functions.
more of one function cancels out the opposite one.
if you understand this, you wont ask stupid questions like "can i have 2 dominant functions".

(and if you reject jung's model, also fine, but then dont talk about a confused version of his model, just design your own)

>.> You obviously haven't read through most of this thread. The question I raised is how can a shadow function be developed enough that said function is now at a dominant level. The other members don't think that that could be the case, so they are finding every other alternative to prove that I don't really use Ni. But I feel I do, and I use it regularly. I know how the Jung model operates, which is where I saw the contradiction in the way my functions work. I'm not challenging Jung (or maybe I am) but calling my questions stupid is really annoying. No question is stupid, this is a forum for inquiry is it not?

Your explanation of 2 dominant functions is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a normal dominant function, in addition to a shadow function that's developed at a high level (So that doesn't include Ne, Si, and Fe). Also your examples are Judging/Judging (Ti/Fi) Perceiving/Perceiving (Ne/Se) J/J (Te/Fe) and PP (Ni/Si). My specific example is Ti/Ni which CAN exist in the same personality. Now maybe I could be very balanced between J/P but I do feel it's possible. This theory is about DEVELOPMENT, not natural CF.

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

and the subject of this thread is just stupidity to the max!

you could only have 2 equally dominant functions in your first 2 functions.
you could have Ti<>Ne balance, being between an ENTP and INTP.
or in general: balance in Ti/Fi<>Ne/Se or Te/Fe<>Ni/Si

that would probably be very scarce, to be in such an exact balance, but there might be quite a few less extreme stereotypical INTPs/ENTPs which are closer to the middle line.

for the newbies, learn about the way the functions are designed by jung, the creator of the model:
there are opposites in the model of the functions.
more of one function cancels out the opposite one.
if you understand this, you wont ask stupid questions like "can i have 2 dominant functions".

(and if you reject jung's model, also fine, but then dont talk about a confused version of his model, just design your own)

Skywalker. My impression about this thread as a whole is it isn't about theory but rather to explain why a specific individual appears to have such strong Ti and Ni. The task is therefore to defeat either one of those by showing one isn't really Ti or Ni but is something else.

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

Skywalker. My impression about this thread as a whole is it isn't about theory but rather to explain why a specific individual appears to have such strong Ti and Ni. The task is therefore to defeat either one of those by showing one isn't really Ti or Ni but is something else.

What makes those two functions working at a high level a schematic paradox? I, for instance, feel I employ both of those functions often, amply and well. Introverted thinking as a tertiary function could, through deep development, mask itself as a greater level function working in tandem with introverted intuition. Using the tertiary function that frequently may result in energy loss, but the scenario is still plausible, right? Why is that being viewed as a scenario inherently rife with contradiction and delusion?

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by snafupants

What makes those two functions working at a high level a schematic paradox? I, for instance, feel I employ both of those functions often, amply and well. Introverted thinking as a tertiary function could, through deep development, mask itself as a greater level function working in tandem with introverted intuition. Using the tertiary function that frequently may result in energy loss, but the scenario is still plausible, right? Why is that being viewed as a scenario inherently rife with contradiction and delusion?

Good questions snafupants. I personally can't wrap my brain around this ... unless what is seen as Ni is not really Ni in ObGenius and now you.

Since I and many seem not to grasp this, I ask, where is Adymus? Why was he given the boot when he is so good at fixing contradictions ... especially MBTI contradictions?

As a mechanical thing, when I look up where Ni could be placed, I find these: INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISFP, ISTP, ESTP, ESFP.

Now can we eliminate all the E's for you and ObGenius? That leaves INTJ, INFJ, ISFP, ISTP. Where do we go from there? You mention Ti as tertiary. Only ISFJ and INTJINFJ gets that. So are you guys INTJ's?

How do YOU see yourself as having Ni? The reason why I frown on having Ni in myself is when I try to intuit something from my own self, I immediately throw it in the garbage. My intuition immediate reverts to thought and is "tossed out there" objectively, that is outside myself. This objectivity is Ne. Where do I find Ni? Where do you? Maybe I'm wrong. Is THAT feeling Ni, that is, the feeling I'm wrong? The one CF function I've thought for myself that I could be that's not INTP is INTJ. I once asked Adymus about this. His reply was (paraphrase), "An INTP can have firm convictions about something if they are very confident in their judgment."

For example, I'm fairly sure about some mathematical things as I've studied pure mathematics which very few have done. So if an amateur comes along I will say they are off base with non-rigorous thought. Does that make me INTJ? Not according to Adymus. It's just well thought out, not just by me but verified by professionals. It's Ti and Ne. Now what if I give a strong opinion and am wrong? Well then that is still Ti Ne Si Fe. INTPs can make errors. What if I add a long column of figures and get the wrong answer? What is that?

Sorry for the long ramble ... but how sorry am I, lol?

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

Good questions snafupants. I personally can't wrap my brain around this ... unless what is seen as Ni is not really Ni in ObGenius and now you.

Since I and many seem not to grasp this, I ask, where is Adymus? Why was he given the boot when he is so good at fixing contradictions ... especially MBTI contradictions?

As a mechanical thing, when I look up where Ni could be placed, I find these: INTJ, INFJ, ENTJ, ENFJ, ISFP, ISTP, ESTP, ESFP.

Now can we eliminate all the E's for you and ObGenius? That leaves INTJ, INFJ, ISFP, ISTP. Where do we go from there? You mention Ti as tertiary. Only ISFJ and INTJ gets that. So are you guys INTJ's?

How do YOU see yourself as having Ni? The reason why I frown on having Ni in myself is when I try to intuit something from my own self, I immediately throw it in the garbage. My intuition immediate reverts to thought and is "tossed out there" objectively, that is outside myself. This objectivity is Ne. Where do I find Ni? Where do you? Maybe I'm wrong. Is THAT feeling Ni, that is, the feeling I'm wrong? The one CF function I've thought for myself that I could be that's not INTP is INTJ. I once asked Adymus about this. His reply was (paraphrase), "An INTP can have firm convictions about something if they are very confident in their judgment."

For example, I'm fairly sure about some mathematical things as I've studied pure mathematics which very few have done. So if an amateur comes along I will say they are off base with non-rigorous thought. Does that make me INTJ? Not according to Adymus. It's just well thought out, not just by me but verified by professionals. It's Ti and Ne. Now what if I give a strong opinion and am wrong? Well then that is still Ti Ne Si Fe. INTPs can make errors. What if I add a long column of figures and get the wrong answer? What is that?

Sorry for the long ramble ... but how sorry am I, lol?

Introverted thinking is a tertiary function for the INFJ and ISFJ, so INTJ need not apply. For some reason I've always correlated your certitude with the INTJ personality, but I'll show my deference for the almighty Adymus and stand down.

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by snafupants

Introverted thinking is a tertiary function for the INFJ and ISFJ, so INTJ need not apply. For some reason I've always correlated your certitude with the INTJ personality, but I'll show my deference for the almighty Adymus and stand down.

I corrected the tertiary to INFJ in my previous post.

Adymus is not so almighty unless he left voluntarily.

Originally Posted by snafupants

I, for instance, feel I employ both of those functions often, amply and well.

If you are INFJ, that's fine and consistent for Ni Ti. That leaves ObGenius. Doesn't he appear to be T, not F? Could he be suppressed F especially because of his upbringing? Could he be INFJ where his Ti has knocked off (suppressed) his Fe?

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

>.> You obviously haven't read through most of this thread. The question I raised is how can a shadow function be developed enough that said function is now at a dominant level.

That is exactly what I addressed with "stupidity to the max".

Your 3rd and 4th function are polar opposites of your 1st and 2nd function. If they would be in exact balance they would all cancel out to nothing. +1 + -1 = 0
(nothing = you would not experience any of those functions at all).

Example: You can only strengthen Ne by weakening Si. They are opposites. If you have as much Ne as Si, you end up with perception of nothing/void, the impossible middle. Intelligence does not exist in the middle. Intelligence requires specialization into a deviatiation of the middle.

Only paradoxical unconsciousness exists in the middle. Consiousness/intelligence requires a viewpoint, a specialization

[BigApplePi]

ObGenious. Would you like to see some evidence you are INFJ? Evidence is not proof. What you are is up to you and whether your functions are energizing or draining I suppose.

[Artsu Tharaz]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

If you are INFJ, that's fine and consistent for Ni Ti. That leaves ObGenius. Doesn't he appear to be T, not F? Could he be suppressed F especially because of his upbringing. Could he be INFJ where his Ti has knocked off (suppressed) his Fe?

Trying to determine 'T or F?' is hard to do (in perception dominants). The more nuanced features like, N with T in NTs or N distinct from T in NFs, Fe and Ti or Fi and Te, will give a more sure answer.

One thing I've noticed is that I'll tend to pick up more of someone's N versus their other functions since I'm dominant N*, so as a dominant T you might pick up on all of someone's T, and not realise that there was a lot of F behind it too.

For the thread though, I don't know how seriously to take its actual purpose given that it is specifically referring to test results which are only approximate anyway. I'm sure the first type to come to mind though with 'high Ni and Ti' would be INFJ.


* I would say that the intensity felt of someone's function would be the product of the power of your function with the power of their corresponding function, relative to a particular type. e.g. an INTP will see their interaction with INFJ as being N (aux/dom) > T (dom/ter) > F (inf/aux) > S (ter/inf). As a result, the INTP might think the INFJ to be a Thinker, and the INFJ might think the INTP to be a dominant-Intuitive.

[Artsu Tharaz]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

That is exactly what I addressed with "stupidity to the max".

Your 3rd and 4th function are polar opposites of your 1st and 2nd function. If they would be in exact balance they would all cancel out to nothing. +1 + -1 = 0
(nothing = you would not experience any of those functions at all).

Example: You can only strengthen Ne by weakening Si. They are opposites. If you have as much Ne as Si, you end up with perception of nothing/void, the impossible middle. Intelligence does not exist in the middle. Intelligence requires specialization into a deviatiation of the middle.

Only paradoxical unconsciousness exists in the middle. Consiousness/intelligence requires a viewpoint, a specialization

So: no, you don't have two dominant functions. You have a dominant and a tertiary, and you might think the tertiary is another dominant, but it's not.


Why would balanced functions mean you experience neither? Why not both alternatingly? Or both together?

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz

One thing I've noticed is that I'll tend to pick up more of someone's N versus their other functions since I'm dominant N*, so as a dominant T you might pick up on all of someone's T, and not realise that there was a lot of F behind it too.

Are you saying hammers tend to see other things all as nails, lol? Could very well be. However I do see lots of feelings in ObGenius. Up to now I've ignored them because the discussion seemed to center around T. I plead innocence even though guilty.

For the thread though, I don't know how seriously to take its actual purpose given that it is specifically referring to test results which are only approximate anyway. I'm sure the first type to come to mind though with 'high Ni and Ti' would be INFJ.

I completely had overlooked that in spite of several people mentioning it.

I call the test results a different enterprise, possibly looking into the test design. I hope it doesn't come to that, lol.

* I would say that the intensity felt of someone's function would be the product of the power of your function with the power of their corresponding function, relative to a particular type. e.g. an INTP will see their interaction with INFJ as being N (aux/dom) > T (dom/ter) > F (inf/aux) > S (ter/inf). As a result, the INTP might think the INFJ to be a Thinker, and the INFJ might think the INTP to be a dominant-Intuitive.

Holy macro. That's a good insight. I'll never master it though.

[ObliviousGenius]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

That is exactly what I addressed with "stupidity to the max".

Your 3rd and 4th function are polar opposites of your 1st and 2nd function. If they would be in exact balance they would all cancel out to nothing. +1 + -1 = 0
(nothing = you would not experience any of those functions at all).

Example: You can only strengthen Ne by weakening Si. They are opposites. If you have as much Ne as Si, you end up with perception of nothing/void, the impossible middle. Intelligence does not exist in the middle. Intelligence requires specialization into a deviatiation of the middle.

Only paradoxical unconsciousness exists in the middle. Consiousness/intelligence requires a viewpoint, a specialization

If that's true, then my Se would be weak if my Ni is strengthened. I understand how the normal processes work, I just don't get the shadow functions yet. Supposedly they function subconsciously, are they subject to the same equation? (5th-8th) If so, then it would explain why I am so oblivious lol.

[ObliviousGenius]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

ObGenious. Would you like to see some evidence you are INFJ? Evidence is not proof. What you are is up to you and whether your functions are energizing or draining I suppose.

Sure, why not? Although I doubt you'll get anywhere because I am about as unfeeling as they come, especially when it comes to Fe (my lowest score on the test).

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

Sure, why not? Although I doubt you'll get anywhere because I am about as unfeeling as they come, especially when it comes to Fe (my lowest score on the test).

I'm not sure I want to challenge you on that. You might punch me in the nose, lol. I went through many of your posts and selected these. One way or the other, unless you are a psychopath, I theorize you have feelings.

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

ObGenious. Would you like to see some evidence you are INFJ? Evidence is not proof. What you are is up to you and whether your functions are energizing or draining I suppose. I'm looking for consistency.

INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se. You scored high in Ni Ti and characterize yourself that way.

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

such as getting frustrated with slower people (that's a big one).

- you see that feeling in yourself. That is Fe.

I always feel like my theories are right from the start

- Ni

I am the type of person to not feel anything at a family member's funeral (its happened several times before).

-What does this mean? You feel nothing or you feel badly you feel nothing? Are you suppressing feelings or do you think of this funeral as a grocery store visit? I expect you wonder why you don't feel or share the expected grief. Do really feel nothing or is your energy put into suppressing what you really feel? Funerals are hardly a neutral situation. I recall attending a funeral once of someone I did not know. I was quite alarmed (a feeling) that I might act out of place and had to suppress all real feelings that did not belong. Something similar for the funerals of my own mother and father.

Oh boy, probably the hardest question I've been asked since I joined this forum.

- Sounds like something with feeling in it.

Well said. I'm impressed by your honesty.

As spoken to Puffy. Fe?

I consider myself an intellectual. It is the only thing that I truly take pride in. I don't really have anything else anyway. Eventually I want to be able to take pride in other things,

- An expression of feeling.

8. I wish you wouldn't have made it so obvious that this was ...

- Fe

I love the abstract and I love strategy and logic, that's always been the case.

Fe

However, my parents are ultra-conservative Christians. We go to church every Sunday and the bible is the basis for everything in our lives. Maybe my constant exposure to church has ...

It is this that has caused me to wonder about your low Fe score. Sounds like in this environment you'd have to be very careful about what feelings you show. Correct or not? Oh. I forgot. You said you have no feelings.

8. I wish you wouldn't have made it so obvious that this was a test question because now I might subconsciously answer as such. Above all I just want to understand my problem, it doesn't matter to me whether I'm an INTJ or INTP. I don't even really have any objective use for this information besides just wanting to know (which is the case for most of the information I'm curious about).

Strong Fe: annoyance with me, Above all desire to understand, feeling spoken of not mattering, just wanting to know -- your words. Those are all evaluations, pure feeling.

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

If that's true, then my Se would be weak if my Ni is strengthened. I understand how the normal processes work, I just don't get the shadow functions yet. Supposedly they function subconsciously, are they subject to the same equation? (5th-8th) If so, then it would explain why I am so oblivious lol.

Actually function 3&4 are originally called the shadow functions by Jung.
Jung called 1-2 the most "conscious / developed" functions (most effect on the intelligence of a person). And 5-6 the "most unconscious / primitive" functions(least effect on thethe intelligence of a person. (7-8 being like a second shadow of 5-6 btw.)
Although Jung usually did NOT explicitly do any function ordering like MBTI explicit ordering. You can decode this from reading most of Jung's books with MBTI ordering in the back of your mind.

Later theories have used the same word "shadow" for function 5-8.
I stick to Jungian style: 3&4=shadow (7&8 is second shadow)

Explanation of the shadow:
The metaphorical "light of your consciousness" shines on function 1&2, their polar opposites (function 3&4) are visible in outer behavior as a metaphorical shadow of that metaphorical light. They are like an after-effect of the intent of function 1&2. It is not that function 3&4 are truly present in the individual in the core, its just that 3&4-kind-of-behavior can be seen in the 1&2-individual. This is because: when function 1&2 are not successful (>obvious stereotypicall 1&2 in outer behavior can be considered success) they will still usually have the after-effect similar to behavior of function 3&4 (as these functions would have caused behavior in an individual that has them as 1&2).
So although 1&2 and 3&4 are polar-opposites, 3&4 are still on the same axis/dimension/plane as the main intent of 1&2, this is where the "bigger chance in similar behavior as 3&4 when 1&2 fail" comes from.
everytime when 1&2 fail then 1&2 will still try to do at least 3&4, and this is what an observer of that type will see in outer behavior.


function 5-6 are actually present in the individual, not as a shadow, but in very weak state, thus almost "unconscious" since their influence on your intelligence is only slight. function 7-8 are in their turn are again a shadow (polar opposite) of 5-6.



p.s. actually there exists a spectrum between function 1-2 and 5-6. Your personal calibration is between 1-2 and 5-6, if you cross the middle of that spectrum and are thus closer to 5-6 than 1-2 then they flip, e.g. 5-6=1-2 and you are actually the other flipped type.

[Artsu Tharaz]

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

If that's true, then my Se would be weak if my Ni is strengthened. I understand how the normal processes work, I just don't get the shadow functions yet. Supposedly they function subconsciously, are they subject to the same equation? (5th-8th) If so, then it would explain why I am so oblivious lol.

They would I guess manifest in the same structure, but as though they were combining in someone other than yourself.

actually there exists a spectrum between function 1-2 and 5-6. Your personal calibration is between 1-2 and 5-6, if you cross the middle of that spectrum and are at 5-6 we call this functions 1-2 (e.g. then it flips).

So that, at that rare point, you could have both Ni and Ne as dominant?

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz

So that, at that rare point, you could have both Ni and Ne as dominant?

no, because they cancel out to nothing in the exact middle. in the middle exists only the great unconsious void, intelligence only exists as a deviation/specialization of the void. to have one function is to sacrifice another.


p.s. long time no see artsu! nice to see you! (i have been gone a bit too)

[Artsu Tharaz]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

no, because they cancel out to nothing in the exact middle. in the middle exists only the great unconsious void, intelligence only exists as a deviation/specialization of the void. to have one function is to sacrifice another.

what is the nature of this void exactly?


the particular 8 function set ups we have are presumably the only ones because any other combination would not lead to a properly functioning mind. how do we derive the 8 function model from more fundamental principles? "we need a main perception and main judgement faculty, one of which must introvert and one of which must extrovert. for each of these there is a shadow process which is directly implied, but must necessarily be weaker as the main process gets stronger. there is then implied a flipped version of these, but these cannot quite be brought to consciousness, for to do so would be to move the usual processes into unconsciousness, which cannot be done due to constraints on how the mind must holistically function", or something?

would it be conceivable for someone to have two conscious minds, one of which has functions 1-4, the other has 5-8, and which can communicate directly?

p.s. long time no see artsu! nice to see you! (i have been gone a bit too)

same to you sir. what do you make of this http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=12049?

[ObliviousGenius]

@BAP Eh, I dont know. I only really ever feel anger, and it takes a lot for me to get upset. I don't feel sadness, but I do feel happiness I honestly can't remember the last time I was sad about anything (at least when sober). I'm just really "indifferent". I stay on the same plane emotionally pretty much all the time. I've learned a lot about other peoples' feelings and try my best to adhere to them.

I still don't think I am INFJ but here are my reasons for how I "could" be an INFJ. INFJ functions are Ti Fe Ni Se. As I understand it, it is possible for a function to be underdeveloped. In think this would be the case with my Fe. I'm also very introverted so that could also explain why I don't use it, my Fi is stronger as well along with all four of my introverted functions. If I were to go with that, that would be my rationale for doing so but I just seem too much like an INTP.

[ElvenVeil]

I wouldn't put too much thought into BAP's view on 'feeling', since to me it gives a misguided view of how functions work together. I will quote Sammael from another thread, as he imo, puts it very beautifully, the 'proper' way of regarding functions.

"Being an INTP means we are Ti dom, Ne auxiliary, Si tertiary and Fe inferior, always. That is how our cognitive process works. We use our dominant Ti, along with Si, internally, and externally, predominantly Ne, along with Fe. These always work together, never separately, and in the order of our function hierarchy. If our Si or Fe were functioning higher than Ti and Ne, we wouldn't be INTP." - Sammael

The second thing that I wanted to bring up, is that posting styles, can give away information of your functions. Based on observations, introverted intuition as a dominant function often brings up a posting pattern, where minimal explanation is used to make a point. I suspect that this is due to the nature of Ni; The Ni dominant simply expect people to follow their thoughts, as they themselves are used to just fill out the empty space and missing information. You do not show this pattern at all, but a very traditional INTP pattern. Once again, I would say, a point in favour for you being an INTP. An example of Ni posting (Artsu Tharaz will be my example here (iirc he is an INFJ)). Taken from a thread recently made:

"Se: pleasure = perception is closed when it should be closed
Ne: pleasure = perception is open when it should be open
Si: pain = perception is open when it should be closed
Ni: pain = perception is closed when it should be open

Ne/Si: perception is open [...]
Ni/Se: perception is closed [...]"

This lack of explaination, which I use as an illustration, is not something that you exhibit at all. (I hope the people that I quote, are okay with them being quoted)

[ObliviousGenius]

@Elven yeah I saw that link and had absolutely no idea what he was talking about lol.

That's true but then again it's a whole lot easier to express my thoughts given the extra time of writing them, rather than speaking of the top of my head. I usually take my time writing my posts coming up with something satisfactory. I don't feel like I'm as logical (logical being the right word) as some others on this forum (or I could just be doubting myself) but I completely understand almost everything I read.

More and more I'm starting to believe that it was my unusual upbringing (conservative, religious black family) that kept me on track to be an INTP (I've never a met a black INTP) and forced me to develop an Ni coping mechanisms. Keep in mind that I never meet other people like myself in my community.

Also please don't be afraid to take this into account when trying to figure this situation out. I will not be offended in the least if you say something don't seem as smart. Because the truth is, I don't think I would be an INTP if I wasn't born into such a conservative family.

[pjoa09]

Could you be unknowingly suppressing your Fe?

INFJs are not exactly humanitarians just because they have a dominant Fe. INTPs don't have to be absolute geeks who have absolutely no interest in a social life or interest in any sort of sensory activity. INFJs are also messy despite being J types.

Point being is that there are no real strict lines.

Then that makes me doubt personality typing.

I just can't see how you can be Ne and Ni at the same time.

It's like saying you are Ti and Te at the same time or Fi and Fe or Si and Se.

Just doesn't make any fucking sense at all. No offense.

By definition of these functions it is not possible.

I will admit, intuition is not as strongly defined as other functions because of it's nature. It is the sixth sense in some sense.

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by ElvenVeil

I wouldn't put too much thought into BAP's view on 'feeling', since to me it gives a misguided view of how functions work together.

[MENTION=4397]ElvenVeil[/MENTION]. Let's have your explanation of where the INFJ view is misguided. There seem to be two theories so far as to ObGenius's temperament.
One is INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe.
One is INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se.
Both have Fe. ObGenius exhibits symptoms of either. The question is, if we are to believe in MBTI, which single one is the right one?

ElvenVeil. I will quote Sammael from another thread, as he imo, puts it very beautifully, the 'proper' way of regarding functions.

"Being an INTP means we are Ti dom, Ne auxiliary, Si tertiary and Fe inferior, always. That is how our cognitive process works. We use our dominant Ti, along with Si, internally, and externally, predominantly Ne, along with Fe. These always work together, never separately, and in the order of our function hierarchy. If our Si or Fe were functioning higher than Ti and Ne, we wouldn't be INTP." - Sammael

We don't know where ObG's Fe is positioned. Both theories have Fe.

The second thing that I wanted to bring up, is that posting styles, can give away information of your functions. Based on observations, introverted intuition as a dominant function often brings up a posting pattern, where minimal explanation is used to make a point. I suspect that this is due to the nature of Ni; The Ni dominant simply expect people to follow their thoughts, as they themselves are used to just fill out the empty space and missing information. You do not show this pattern at all, but a very traditional INTP pattern.

Yes and no. He strongly argues in favor of Ni. Do you deny that? It's very hard to say if that is J or not. J would support INFJ. Agreed his posting style doesn't seem like Ni, but we have contradictions here. I don't see strong Ti, yet some.[/QUOTE]

@ObGenius. It seems to be well known INTP's have weak Fe. You show Fe. Do you deny it? I gave examples in your posting style. This is unlike me. Every time I show Fe I'm self-conscious of it. You show it naturally in spite of your conservative background.

[MENTION=1966]Adymus[/MENTION]. Where the f are you?

[ElvenVeil]

Yes I am sorry if I phrased myself improperly. Which I did I think. What I wanted to say was that looking at different posts saying 'fe' , 'ni' , didn't move us forward in any way. If you said for instance Ti-Fe or inferior Fe, then it would be more useful.
You are right, the two theories are INFJ and INTP, and that means INFJ functions and INTP functions with no extra super developed functions in between.

As I have said throughout the whole thread, I don't believe in the extra developed function that Oblivious Genius believes/believed to have. I don't deny that he argues that he is using Ni, but I try to deny that he is actually using Ni.

If he was a Ni user, and now I am just stating my gut feeling, I would expect him to do two things: First of all, he wouldn't spend so much time expressing himself as clearly as possible, as that is 'unecessary' for Ni dominat, but extremely important for a Ti dominant. Ti dominant requires information to be precise and clear for one to really work with it. Secondly I would expect him to have ended the thread earlier (in fact I am surprised that he has not given up on this despite type), but he has not, and that is actually interesting. The manner of which he approaches a subject will also be revealing.

The way I regard Oblivious Genius posting style and thinking: At first he approaches this subject with an idea that he is using Ni. At the same time he has no doubt that he is an INTP. So the thread has two goals: 1st being to see if anyone has a reasonable explanation for this phenomena, and 2nd, to recieve some peer validation. The Peer validation/ low self confidence is not unimportant when it comes to naming him INTP. I will get back to this shortly.


Oblivious Genius approaches the 'explain this phenomena' , where he at first just seeks an explanation, but then later on in this thread begins to be more humble, and more second guessing. He wishes Ni to be active and he will not readily abandon this idea. So he begins to consider INFJ (which was well spotted by other people) , as well as upbringing and the fact that he is black. In other word, he explores the possibilities with a few premises in mind and that is imo, a very clear Ti-Ne way of thinking. There is nothing wrong with his internal logic, and that should be noted. There is something wrong with his premise, and that is he not ready to give up the Ni idea might be a sign of the subjective logic that INTPs can have until they become more aware of this (personal speculation/observation).

Good. Now a way of regarding his thinking/posting style is presented.. Now let's move towards the self aggrandizement/ low self confidence of Oblivious genius, and what they may tell us about his functions. I will list some of the signs so that you will know what I am talkign about: The forum name, his signature quotes, his peer validation seeking in the beginning (since he at that time was not very ready to accept other views imo, so the post imo, had an underlying purpose), and the 'I don't feel as logical as the rest of you'.

Ok, let's work with this. Every single thing of the ones listed above are related to 'intelligence' and his ability to think. So there can be no doubt there, this is very important to him. However, he is not sure of himself, even though he does consider himself intelligent, and that is due to the second guess loops that Ti makes.. Not to mention that ones own ability to think is very important for any INTP I have seen, and so they care a lot about this.
Combine this with an inferior Fe, where you seek to know what other people think about you, and care about peer validation. You need this extra information. It results in him being unsure, and so he will try and state his intelligence through user name, signature, and also why he feels the need to say that he does not feel as 'logical' as some other people on this forum.
These irational quirks are very usual among INTPs. You would not find this kind thinking among Te dominant/auxulary thinkers. So if you ask me, we have here two clear points in favour for him being an INTP. I have not seen INFJ behave like he does.

These are my reasons to say that Oblivious Genius = INTP.
His 'Ni' is caused by an understandable lack of understanding of the nature of Ni. The things he points towards as being Ni, are what every other in this thread it seems, and I agree, claim to be signs of Ne, Si , Ti and so forth.

So bottom line: He is an INTP

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by ElvenVeil

Yes I am sorry if I phrased myself improperly. Which I did I think. What I wanted to say was that looking at different posts saying 'fe' , 'ni' , didn't move us forward in any way. If you said for instance Ti-Fe or inferior Fe, then it would be more useful.
You are right, the two theories are INFJ and INTP, and that means INFJ functions and INTP functions with no extra super developed functions in between.

Thanks for the rephrase. I didn't want to say Ti-Fe or anything like that because I can't tell the relative dominance.

As I have said throughout the whole thread, I don't believe in the extra developed function that Oblivious Genius believes/believed to have. I don't deny that he argues that he is using Ni, but I try to deny that he is actually using Ni.

That's what I pondered in the beginning also. But when INFJ came into the picture, I began to wonder about that too.

If he was a Ni user, and now I am just stating my gut feeling, I would expect him to do two things: First of all, he wouldn't spend so much time expressing himself as clearly as possible, as that is 'unnecessary' for Ni dominat, but extremely important for a Ti dominant. Ti dominant requires information to be precise and clear for one to really work with it. Secondly I would expect him to have ended the thread earlier (in fact I am surprised that he has not given up on this despite type), but he has not, and that is actually interesting. The manner of which he approaches a subject will also be revealing.

Yes, pursuit of clarity is an INTP trait, but does it discount INFJ? I'm no expert on Ni so I can't trust my own opinion of it.

The way I regard Oblivious Genius posting style and thinking: At first he approaches this subject with an idea that he is using Ni. At the same time he has no doubt that he is an INTP. So the thread has two goals: 1st being to see if anyone has a reasonable explanation for this phenomena, and 2nd, to recieve some peer validation. The Peer validation/ low self confidence is not unimportant when it comes to naming him INTP. I will get back to this shortly.

I still can't rule out INFJ.

Oblivious Genius approaches the 'explain this phenomena' , where he at first just seeks an explanation, but then later on in this thread begins to be more humble, and more second guessing. He wishes Ni to be active and he will not readily abandon this idea. So he begins to consider INFJ (which was well spotted by other people) , as well as upbringing and the fact that he is black. In other word, he explores the possibilities with a few premises in mind and that is imo, a very clear Ti-Ne way of thinking. There is nothing wrong with his internal logic, and that should be noted. There is something wrong with his premise, and that is he not ready to give up the Ni idea might be a sign of the subjective logic that INTPs can have until they become more aware of this (personal speculation/observation).

Good points. What bothers me is INTP's have no Ni. INFJ's have some Ti. Is he using this Ti to make correct judgments about his so-called Ni? We would need to review his Ni claims to see if he actually has symptoms of Ni over just making Ni claims. Are you aware Ti opposes Fe? That's the reason why I wanted to bring in Fe. If his strong Ti is suppressing his Fe, that would be consistent with INFJ. At present I wanted to look at his Fe. I realize this is rather complicated, so let me know if you buy it.

Good. Now a way of regarding his thinking/posting style is presented.. Now let's move towards the self aggrandizement/ low self confidence of Oblivious genius, and what they may tell us about his functions. I will list some of the signs so that you will know what I am talkign about: The forum name, his signature quotes, his peer validation seeking in the beginning (since he at that time was not very ready to accept other views imo, so the post imo, had an underlying purpose), and the 'I don't feel as logical as the rest of you'.

Ok, let's work with this. Every single thing of the ones listed above are related to 'intelligence' and his ability to think. So there can be no doubt there, this is very important to him. However, he is not sure of himself, even though he does consider himself intelligent, and that is due to the second guess loops that Ti makes.. Not to mention that ones own ability to think is very important for any INTP I have seen, and so they care a lot about this.
Combine this with an inferior Fe, where you seek to know what other people think about you, and care about peer validation. You need this extra information. It results in him being unsure, and so he will try and state his intelligence through user name, signature, and also why he feels the need to say that he does not feel as 'logical' as some other people on this forum.
These irational quirks are very usual among INTPs. You would not find this kind thinking among Te dominant/auxulary thinkers. So if you ask me, we have here two clear points in favour for him being an INTP. I have not seen INFJ behave like he does.

Don't know. While this is consistent with INTP, don't forget he is 20 years old (if I recall correctly). This means any trait can be underdeveloped.

These are my reasons to say that Oblivious Genius = INTP.
His 'Ni' is caused by an understandable lack of understanding of the nature of Ni. The things he points towards as being Ni, are what every other in this thread it seems, and I agree, claim to be signs of Ne, Si , Ti and so forth.

Well perhaps I should count myself out as being too ignorant of Ni myself, lol. I hope this is not too impertinent, but how do you characterize yourself? INTP?

So bottom line: He is an INTP

Sounds like a strong conviction. The way I rate two opposing theories is to say something like: x percent consistency with INTP; y percent with INFJ. We live with the higher percentage until we collect more data.

[ElvenVeil]

Yes, pursuit of clarity is an INTP trait, but does it discount INFJ? I'm no expert on Ni so I can't trust my own opinion of it.
I still can't rule out INFJ.

No it doesn't rule out anyone. It should be noted that I try and take into consideration that a lot of my speculations are based on theory combined with observations. That is Why I try and make a point out of saying that I have not observed this in INFJs.

Good points. What bothers me is INTP's have no Ni. INFJ's have some Ti. Is he using this Ti to make correct judgments about his so-called Ni? We would need to review his Ni claims to see if he actually has symptoms of Ni over just making Ni claims. Are you aware Ti opposes Fe? That's the reason why I wanted to bring in Fe. If his strong Ti is suppressing his Fe, that would be consistent with INFJ. At present I wanted to look at his Fe. I realize this is rather complicated, so let me know if you buy it.

Yes I do buy this. But if he had a much more active Ti and suppressed Fe, then he would not work as an INFJ type. I think that Sammaels post presents this in a beautiful manner, and I also think that there is a deeply rooted truth in this claim. Looking at his Fe makes sense, and that is also what I tried. Though what I did was to see if his posts makes sense if you look at them with the conviction that he is Ti dominant and inferior Fe.

Don't know. While this is consistent with INTP, don't forget he is 20 years old (if I recall correctly). This means any trait can be underdeveloped.
Well perhaps I should count myself out as being too ignorant of Ni myself, lol. I hope this is not too impertinent, but how do you characterize yourself? INTP?
Sounds like a strong conviction.
The way I rate two opposing theories is to say something like: x percent consistency with INTP; y percent with INFJ. We live with the higher percentage until we collect more data.

Yes.. Tbh I thought that he was younger when I first read his posts. Underdeveloped traits are hard to work with I think.. It is very difficult to say when a person has an underdeveloped Fe for instance, and how that affects his person. This is, imo, one of the things within MBTI where people could/should have very difficult views on. The reason why I consider myself to somewhat understand the nature of Ni, is because I have spend a lot of time hearing descriptions of Ni, and talking with Ni persons. My brother is an INTJ and so I have had access to a lot of data through here.
I am an INTP, yes, so that is also where I get some of my INTP data from.

And you are ofc correct that it is a strong conviction that I hold in this situation. I believe myself to be correct here, but I would not go as far as discourage looking into Fe, with the premise in mind that it should be his auxulary function and Ni as a dominant.
I will repeat however, that I have not seen INFJs behave like him, and I do not put too much trust in shadow functions theory.

[BigApplePi]

ObGenius. I want to point out something about this Fe thing because you say you are (paraphrase) cool toward feelings. Everyone who is modestly normal has feelings. (I have not studied autism or Asberger's). There is nothing wrong with having them. It's just that socially we have to be careful. Fe doesn't have to be hot emotions. Any feelings or desires, wants or wishes, I'd count as Fe or Fi. (We can forget Fi for now as INTP versus INFJ doesn't use Fi.) The way I describe it is, feelings evaluate; thinking observes. At any given moment we don't observe and evaluate at the same time. They are two different dimensions of relating.

It's perfectly alright to show or have Fe. Do you agree my references here show you display Fe and openly so? It's alright to disagree with my examples. Just because you don't exhibit them in others areas of your life doesn't mean you don't show them to yourself. Fe doesn't have to be socialized. It just a matter of being aware, "I feel such and such", be it anger, frustration, boredom, lust, curiosity, excitement, anxiety and so on. Do you have any of those? Rhetorical question.

[ObliviousGenius]

Originally Posted by BigApplePi

ObGenius. I want to point out something about this Fe thing because you say you are (paraphrase) cool toward feelings. Everyone who is modestly normal has feelings. (I have not studied autism or Asberger's). There is nothing wrong with having them. It's just that socially we have to be careful. Fe doesn't have to be hot emotions. Any feelings or desires, wants or wishes, I'd count as Fe or Fi. (We can forget Fi for now as INTP versus INFJ doesn't use Fi.) The way I describe it is, feelings evaluate; thinking observes. At any given moment we don't observe and evaluate at the same time. They are two different dimensions of relating.

It's perfectly alright to show or have Fe. Do you agree my references here show you display Fe and openly so? It's alright to disagree with my examples. Just because you don't exhibit them in others areas of your life doesn't mean you don't show them to yourself. Fe doesn't have to be socialized. It just a matter of being aware, "I feel such and such", be it anger, frustration, boredom, lust, curiosity, excitement, anxiety and so on. Do you have any of those? Rhetorical question.

Out of all the functions Fe is the one I understand the least. I do feel those feelings that you listed, they're just VERY unpronounced even good ones like happiness. My dad is a very stereotypical ESFJ and when he's calm the only thing he wants to do is provide. People have noted us as being polar opposites because of our personalities. He's always coming to me for the "logical" answer. I CAN be very kind and giving most of the time, and I'm not very selfish. I'm also pretty considerate of others and I think of what they may need. However, all of this comes second in priority to my laziness. If I don't feel like it or if I am busy or having something to do I won't do it nor will I even remember.

@Elven You make some really interesting points. It is clear that everyone posting in this thread does not believe that this theory could be truly valid because each explanation is taking into account everything I've said and fitting it into the MBTI model. Since what I'm saying doesn't fit all that well you have to think of alternatives as the best fit. At this point I feel like I really need to study up on Ni because most of you are saying differently (even though I do not succumb to majority opinion).

This thread, it's sort of brought me into a slump. I'm not thinking clearly and my thoughts are scattered. I'm not even sure what to post anymore. You can continue to ask me questions and I'll post if I really come up on something, but otherwise I'll just watch.

[BigApplePi]

Originally Posted by ObliviousGenius

Out of all the functions Fe is the one I understand the least. I do feel those feelings that you listed, they're just VERY unpronounced even good ones like happiness. My dad is a very stereotypical ESFJ and when he's calm the only thing he wants to do is provide. People have noted us as being polar opposites because of our personalities. He's always coming to me for the "logical" answer. I CAN be very kind and giving most of the time, and I'm not very selfish. I'm also pretty considerate of others and I think of what they may need. However, all of this comes second in priority to my laziness. If I don't feel like it or if I am busy or having something to do I won't do it nor will I even remember.

@Elven You make some really interesting points. It is clear that everyone posting in this thread does not believe that this theory could be truly valid because each explanation is taking into account everything I've said and fitting it into the MBTI model. Since what I'm saying doesn't fit all that well you have to think of alternatives as the best fit. At this point I feel like I really need to study up on Ni because most of you are saying differently (even though I do not succumb to majority opinion).

This thread, it's sort of brought me into a slump. I'm not thinking clearly and my thoughts are scattered. I'm not even sure what to post anymore. You can continue to ask me questions and I'll post if I really come up on something, but otherwise I'll just watch.

ObGenius. Let me reassure you not to worry about scattered thoughts. It's a scattered situation. When lots of things are dug up that's what happens. Now we let settle in where to go: dig up more + interpret what we've got. For me it's a time for Ne and Si. Let Ti take a rest.

You have made some other intriguing statements that a non-INTP might leave alone but I find interesting.

Happiness is not a basic primitive feeling. There can be much discussion about what it means anyway. Laziness is not a primitive feeling either. It reflects behavior and is subjective. If I don't want to go out and chop some wood am I lazy? Not necessarily. I just want to do something else.

Speaking for myself, when in the presence of people emoting hot emotions in my direction, I tend to freeze all emotions. I go into thinking mode and try to intuit where they are at. If I talk to them I get extremely rational ... at least that's what happened on another forum I was on. If I'm making any point at all, those FJ's couldn't make a dent in me, nor could I change their feelings. If I had to do it all over, I would display more emotion ... something they would understand. Don't know if you identify with this.

Feel free to step back or not. I have to think over the theory anyway, lol.

[katkeyron]

I really just skimmed everything on this second page again, but I had the impression you were an INTP through most of this.

1. A lot of this is coming from "what is Ni?" and the assertions that you have a lot of Ne (hence, no Ni). It seems like you can't get a definition of Ni you fully understand, so I suggest you look up Si in depth, for comparison if nothing else.

2. Look really closely at how you approach a problem. What do you do when you have to deal with a familiar one versus a completely unknown one?

ex; I'm an INFJ. I use Ti a lot, and I like Ti, but it is not my normal mode of being. Technically speaking, logic is what I will resort to when Fe-ing something I know (Ni) can't get me the results I want.

also, I wouldn't hold the test results as something to think too much about. Some traits they list can apply to users of both orientations of one function. It's still something that's only very marginally accurate.

[Artsu Tharaz]

I always feel like my theories are right from the start, but y'all are disputing me. Even though I have heard your arguments I still feel like I'm on to something here. Now granted, I could be completely wrong, and if I am, it once again suggests I have Ni dominant traits. This particular one being Ni doms trust their own intuitive insight (even if they may be wrong) over what other people tell them. (Another paradox)

Do Ni doms really trust their own insight over what others tell them? Ni is used in extroverted judgements, with both Te and Fe factoring in the judgements of others. Ni is a way of seeing things, there's no right or wrong except for the implications it has as to how you behave. If you can see something you can see it.

I'm on to something and just haven't pin-pointed what it is that I was thinking so far.

You're gaining insight into how your mind works. There's no need for it to be put into the silly 8 function structure.

On the other hand, what you're probably showing is simply that function descriptions are incorrect. An Ni description when interpreted logically seems to fit you despite being INTP, hence wasn't a very good description. Nothing life changing there.

[BigApplePi]

That post has me wondering about magic shows. I've seen a few and can imagine such a group wondering how it was done. One person of dominant Ni could claim it was really magic and no one else could defeat him. Yet we know it's not magic because the illusionist admits it.

What's the moral of the story? Just because something is not explained doesn't mean the explanation is the one you've come up with.

[pjoa09]

[MENTION=5346]katkeyron[/MENTION] I meant Ni and Ti being dominant. They would conflict. That would force one to turn into INFJ or ISTP. Premonitions and Aha! moments don't seem to befriend the Ti 's constant scrutinizing and grinding of information. One of them would be forced into submission and would have to stop interfering with one another.

Another theory. Damn. But it's good I think.

[Artsu Tharaz]

Originally Posted by pjoa09

@katkeyron I meant Ni and Ti being dominant. They would conflict. That would force one to turn into INFJ or ISTP. Premonitions and Aha! moments don't seem to befriend the Ti 's constant scrutinizing and grinding of information. One of them would be forced into submission and would have to stop interfering with one another.

Another theory. Damn. But it's good I think.

i think it's implied by the fact that Pi pairs with Je that that must be the case. maybe dominant Ti and dominant Te would work well. but then these can't be conscious to each other in their workings, though you could in a sense detect a boundary of it

so if we're saying that the lower 4 functions have a dom-aux:ter-inf structure too, then your second dominant (which however is not where your intelligence lies) is the one with i and e exchanged. Te for Ti dominant, Ni is like the second auxiliary. maybe the prime dominant is better able to see its workings (since it is used to seeing Ne?)

[Ti-Ne:Si-Fe][Te-Ni:Se-Fi]

[snafupants]

I have eight dominant functions.

[Artsu Tharaz]

I have nine.