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Oh btw, all of this debate and study has completely evolved my understanding of psychological types. So thanks for that, Icee (I'm calling you that because it's short, and ICEEs are amazing). I definitely don't hold MBTI with the same regard that I did before, and I understand the Ti, Te, Ni, Ne...

What? Why does Ti require one to accept information as truth? Ti requires only an input of data, whether that's objective or subjective. Ti then takes that data and internalizes and subjectifies it. Accepting the fact that Bob is at the party offhand could be indicative of several of the...

It's something you don't get to see, otherwise. You can gauge how a particular type of person reacts to a particular set of conditions, and then gather how that type of person reacts to having their ideas about you more or less shattered. You could even do this to a milder degree to determine...

Fun idea, but I lack the ability to be "outside myself", if you will. This would be incredibly stressful for me. I'm interested to hear the results from anyone that actually attempts it, though. :)

I don't agree with your example. If someone (an object) told you that Bob (another object) was at a party (an objective piece of information), and you form a conclusion about that object (Bob is not at home), how is this subjective? Now, if someone told you that Bob was at a party, and you...

Did SpongeBob enter the thread, or did the thread enter SpongeBob? Answer this, and you may find eternal salvation (or was that eternal salivation? I can never remember...). Hey wait, where are her bats? Please, you'll need this. Don't take them for granted. :smiley_emoticons_mr

No, that's from the careful review and analysis I just completed of Jung's description of the introverted thinking type. In fact, I'm now becoming rather put off by how Myers organizes and describes the functions in Gifts Differing, so I'm going to be avoiding using MBTI as a reference as much...

Right, I understand where you're coming from completely. I just finished carefully reading through the entire section on introverted thinking, and took two entire pages of bullet points (which include the very 6 bullets you mentioned above). At this point, it seems that I may just be taking the...

I got the point, and my own still stands. When you are directing to someone that they are wrong about something, that is more likely a behavioral result of Te than Ti. It is an action aimed at an object about an external idea. It is concerned with a fact. Pointing out someone's inconsistencies...

I feel like we need disclaimers to point out that these things are highly controversial standpoints. I'm re-reading Jung's types and even going through and making bullet points that stick as closely to Jung's original language as possible in an attempt to really, honestly, openly, and truly...

I read through the type descriptions in the following paragraphs. I'll have to go back and look at what you wrote in the other Socionics thread. To my eyes, INTP fits with Jung's introverted thinking type rather well.

Agreed. As someone who has been hit in the neck by a frisbee, broken a pinky on a basketball (and jammed several more fingers), and had several nosebleeds due to objects hitting my face, I can safely say that this sounds more like an INTP to me :P. Unless, of course, I'm not representative of...

That sounds mostly correct, echoplex. When I went back to read the descriptions of Ti, Te, Ni, and Ne as written in Psychological Types, I actually had a pretty hard time coming up with good rationale to explain why TiNe or NiTe works well for describing INTP. This is mostly because Jung speaks...

Holy crap, I cannot fathom the fact that Spongebob Squarepants is 11 years old. I remember when it first came out and I was "too old" to be interested. Now I'm 11 years older :slashnew:.

Huh? When did he delve into specifics about what type of relationship you should pursue? It all seemed pretty open-ended to my eyes. Maybe we interpreted what he said in different ways. Hrm...

Right, I agree with this. I think the disagreement comes from whether you consider TiNe or NiTe to be the "stiff robot". I'm sticking with NiTe, and I think my quotes by Jung on introverted and extraverted thinkers illustrates that by pointing out the subjective, creative way of thinking in...

Wow, wise and sobering advice. This is the kind of thing that seems like common sense, until you realize just how long it takes you to truly understand the truth and meaning behind it.

I did. I actually first forgot to respond to it, and then responded and had my session time out due to my work connection being awful ): . What difference does putting a scientist or philosopher into one or the other bracket matter? That's extremely difficult to say one way or the other...

On Introverted Thinking: On Extraverted Thinking: On logic applying to both types of thinkers: At this point I must concede to mixing words earlier and not giving a clear picture of how the two types of thinking receive information. Jung makes it quite clear that Te both derives from and...

Logical judgement doesn't imply Te. It could just as easily imply Ti. I'm at work at the moment, so I'll have to pull the Jung reference that directly describes this later. Likewise, the inner world could mean any number of things. If you are describing an inner world of insights and...

Interesting. You're right, I suppose that there's nothing keeping more than one personality from being active at once. I asked my Christian friend about this, and she said the following:

Ok, fair enough. Yes, I think so. Just one minor clarification - I'd say we make logical judgements often about and generally from our inner world. No, I don't think so. In fact, one of the hallmarks of the INTP is refusing to make objective judgements about the outer world. We are so focused...

Now we're cooking with fire. I'm not sure I would choose these exact words, but this is agreeable enough. Perhaps I wouldn't say that Ne "exerts" itself on the external world, more just that it deals with the external world. I also wouldn't say Ti necessarily "applies logic internally" but...

Since only one personality can be active at a time, is it possible that only one "soul" would be active at a time? In this case, maybe whichever soul were active at the exact moment of death (whatever that would be) would win out. Perhaps they would have an epic battle to the lack of existence...

Thanks for the links! I'll have to have a gander at this when I get home (stupid work keeping me from my interests...).

You know, thinking about this is only arousing feelings of bitterness. You shouldn't try to rationalize this feeling you're having so much. :D

:grouphug: We're here for you. That is, until they lock you up. I'm afraid we cannot follow you there. On the plus side, it's hard to lose things in a padded white room. :babytap: You probably didn't need the document, anyways. I would tell you to think like an ESTJ, but then we won't like...

Oh great, now I have the urge to read through the entire forum history. Thanks. No, really - I appreciate that. I'm sure my time couldn't be better spent elsewhere. *mumble mutter* :pueh:

:p Ribbit :p

What this thread needs is a little Devil's advocate. Why do you all just take it for granted that adolescents do not value intelligence? Do you recall how much esteem you had for the kid in school that knew the most about Star Wars, dinosaurs, or GI Joes? Perhaps intelligence is just valued on a...

Ah, I genuinely didn't gather that at all. Your original post was a collection of controversial statements, which lends itself more to debate than to introspection, in my opinion. I think stating things as a series of open-ended questions might have been more conducive to the goal. Instead of...

Holy thread necromancer, Batman! Well, while I'm here I may as well respond. I have what I would consider a strong sex drive, but the idea of actually having sex is much too troublesome. I don't like getting close to others in that way, and the few sexual encounters I've had didn't lead all the...

You mean like how I went back to Psychological Types and Gifts Differing, and read much new material on Socionics that I hadn't bothered with before? You don't think our debate has fueled introspection and skepticism? If you state an opinion and your own interpretation of a framework, does not...

So let me get this straight - You're faulting MBTI because people incorrectly read their own ideas into it? One could easily do the same thing with Jung's work, you know. If you take the premise that one should "only be their natural self" to the extreme, you might find INTPs becoming so...

I have yet to see where MBTI claims that INTPs need to develop Fe. In Gifts Differing the only claim is that auxiliary functions should be developed, whatever that is for the type. So, for MBTI INTPs that would mean we should develop Ne. I think you're likely referring to forum responses where...

Why are you postulating this question, and how do you plan to use it? :P

Why should MBTI have to be accurate with regards to what it takes from Jung (though I believe it is) if it is useful and consistent in its own right?

Yes, I have trouble with this. It seems that I have more success in communicating stories or ideas in person when I block out my Ti process and utilize other functions. Basically, if I become passionate about what I'm speaking about, or if I become creative in my methods of explaining something...

Then why did you create a thread to state an opinion? I'm not claiming that MBTI is perfect. Like many others here, I especially find fault with the idea of using a questionnaire to try and type someone, and then having that marketed to the free world as some tool to place people in the...

My intent was less to understand Socionics and more to understand why you find MBTI to be flawed. That said, these discussions have furthered my knowledge of Socionics, peaked my curiosity, and gotten me to go back and read more of my Jung. So, cheers. :musketiere:

That was fantastic! Very moving, honestly. I wouldn't have stopped reading it if it were pages longer. :applaus:

Sure, and one would expect this to happen from the MBTI framework, as well. :rolleyes: Back to playing guitar.

Interesting...I'll have to try this. Also, thanks for the correction/clarification on what I said. I read back over what I wrote, and it was pretty vague and not very insightful :P.

Online tests (and tests in general) can be rough. Best to read about the types in whichever system you're interested in (MBTI, Socionics, or just Jung's work) and decide from there.

It's crazy to think that this is only a very small piece of the entirety of Jung's work. Also, where is that avatar from? I want to stare at it for hours.

What? ESFJs and INTPs can adapt to each other. It's just a matter of understanding the differences and learning to compromise. We're dealing with observed behavior and trying to pin down why this occurs. By the very nature of the discipline, this is GOING to be inductive. We are going to have...

I can think of many reasons consistent with MBTI that ESFJ and INTP generally conflict. Generalizing: ESFJ types are pushy and emotional, cannot see the implications of their actions, and have trouble giving people "alone space". INTPs are logical, do not easily cope with feelings in other...

In the past when I didn't make much progress, I mostly just learned a new song here or there, practiced songs I had already learned, and then mucked around with random things trying to make them sound alright. This method did not result in a lot of progress for me, other than the initial stage...

Fine, I'll accept that she called dominant Si and Ni judging types, but she makes this very clear that it's only in dealing with the exterior world through their auxiliary function, which is not incorrect according to Jung. You're trying to rip apart MBTI's chosen method of categorizing the...

Word(s)! :D Sorry, couldn't resist...