INTP Forum

INTP Forum http://intpforum.com// This is a discussion forum powered by vBulletin. To find out about vBulletin, go to http://www.vbulletin.com/ . en Tue, 21 May 2013 22:41:37 GMT vBulletin 60 http://intpforum.com/images/misc/rss.jpg INTP Forum http://intpforum.com// Giggling, Jiggling, Boobies http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16532&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 18:13:05 GMT I've been watching videos on YouTube from Extra Credits and Jimquisition, the really interesting ones being about women playing games, the objectification of women in games and all that gender studies stuff.

Finally I've figured out what's been bugging me into watching all this.

I see their examples and I wondered what was so bad about them, it's damn near nudity a lot of the time but nudity isn't that offensive so I figured there had to be something else, so I pondered a while about portrayals of men I might find offensive, the muscle bound jar-heads from Gears of War annoy me, but not much, I've seen male models in nothing but their briefs, it's a little off putting to see on Ellen (I doubt she liked it either) but if that were a game protagonist it wouldn't stop me playing the game, heck there's many games targeted at guys almost exactly like that.

Then it hit me, the Twilight books/movies, or Justin Bieber, they irritate me somehow, but why, what is it about these examples that gets under my skin when less blatently crude or exploitive media dosen't?

I think it's because of what I'm going to call "womanification", likewise the male equivalent is "manification", I think it's essentially outrage at an obvious deception, in the most offensive examples of either type the character (Bieber's public persona is a character) is something irreplicateable. I mean a guy sees Bieber on TV, of this is first exposure there's no initial reaction, then he sees the girls going nuts about Bieber, then the camera goes back to Bieber and a disconnect occurs in the guy's brain, on one hand his subconscious is telling him that if this is what women want then he should study it, emulate it where he can, but consciously he's very much aware that Bieber's this smug little shit, a turd polished to a gleam, and that's something the guy desperately does not want to be.

Say you're in bed and your partner asks you to moo like a cow or pretend you're a relative of theirs, it's exactly that heinousness, it's not the role play that's offensive, it's the role itself in the context. So when a woman sees Kasumi running down beech in a bikini, gigantic boobs jiggling as she giggles like an idiot the rage comes from the realisation that no woman would so enthusiastically degrade herself like that, in a single scene the portrayal of character is already internally inconsistent, it's a blatant lie, and however much it may stupefy guys it's precisely what she (the veiwer) doesn't want to be.

Now how many of you we're drawn here by the title? :D ]]> Cognisant http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16532 The awfull insights of own8ge will be posted in here. #Own8ge_Dump. http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16530&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 15:57:21 GMT

Quote:

I will not bother people with to many posts. Instead, I will limit myself, as requested, to post 'only' within this thread.

Subject 1: Introversion considered from another, also true, perspective.

Why introversion is partly equal to paranoia.
- We introverts always want to mind our own business because we are aware of our ignorance. We know our bullshit. And we don’t want to bother other people with it. So we think about conveying the point that we want to mind our own business. Which comes across to the others, namely Extroverts, as selfish. They think that because they are like: “Why are they thinking about not wanting to speak to me?! What a jerk!”

- White lies need to be sustained. The introvert, to tell a story always tells white lies. To portray his perspectives convincingly, requires the person, the introvert, not to be a hypocrite and live up to their wite-lies in order to portray them onto other people. We live in a lie, but my thoughts must be perceived as truth. That is because truth is always a lie. And my lie is not an extreme lie.

]]> Philosophy own8ge http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16530 Is Love A Neurosis Detrimental To Marriage? http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16529&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 15:13:58 GMT I'm currently reading The Adjusted American: Normal Neuroses In the Individual And Society, and one of its contentions is that love is a neurosis. Their contention is that "American marriages are unstable because Americans marry for love." I'm going to quote some passages, hopefully to generate some discussion. Given our tendency in the West to glorify love, I find the authors' contention especially fascinating. I'm curious as to what you intelligent folk might think of it. As far as I can tell, it seems spot on, but I lack experience in such things nor have I given it much study beyond this.

Firstly, love is viewed by them much as hate is -- that is -- love is generated, in part, by an alienated aspect of the self projected onto someone else.

Quote:

Men love much as they hate; the mechanism of the one emotion is an inversion of the other. When a person alienates from himself some quality or potential which he despises, he projects it onto someone else, where he hates it. Conversely, when he alienates some quality or potential which would like to experience in himself but does not, he projects it onto someone else, where he loves it. The people he loves, like those he hates, are merely convenient targets for his projections.

And so opposites attract. . .

They advise against the concept of love full of equivocations among definitions for that term(mature love, romantic love, young love, etc.), instead defining it as the following.

Quote:

For the sake of clarity, we have restricted the word love to that attraction which based on the projection of alienated but desired characteristics. Such projection leads to an intense desire to be with the person on whom the projections are hung, to exhilaration when he is present, to depression when he is absent, to possessive jealousy, Our usage is thus consistent with the kind of feeling an American usually has in mind when he says, "I love you."

In this sense, they seem to be elevating a nurture explanation over a natural one. I've read some studies indicating that love is chemically similar in the brain as the effects of cocaine. A quick, lazy search:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/205973.php

However, they caution elsewhere that, while love may be fun (due to its resultant feelings, "Yet at best love is a temporary euphoria"), it is not a stable basis on which to base marriage. In this case, I wonder about the direction of causality. Does the cocaine-like high lead to an increase in the tendency to project, or the other way around? Do they happen together by strengthening each other (I'm being a bit lazy here, but I'll probably add to it later)?

Moreover . . .

Quote:

It may be that the phrase "mature love" is sometimes intended to convey the idea of this kind of relationship, but if so the usage is misleading, for it implies that the so-called "mature love" is a natural outgrowth of romantic love. This is hardly the case, for love leads in the opposite direction. It is no accident that the greatest tales of love end with the death of the lovers; there is simply no other plausible ending that would not conflict with the myth of love. Love may form the basis for a charming weekend, but it is an unstable foundation for marriage.

In any case, marriage often fails if based entirely on love because familiarity provides cracks in the projections. Instead of trying to create a bond by which both parties can be happy through intimate association whereby each individual mirrors each other for self-growth (think of an intimate/candid friendship), couples in marriages become more concerned with whether they love each other. Since love is a fleeting emotion, American marriages tend to fail. Indeed, love wasn't the original basis for marriage, but here I'm obviously not saying earlier bases were necessarily better.

A Neurosis is a non-organic barrier to need satisfaction. People "love" those on whom they hang those beloved alienated projections. Projections induce a neurosis when it presents a barrier to need satisfaction. When a person is viewed as the sum of projections the need for intimate association, at least via the marriage, is blocked. When a need is blocked, tension rises, and then fighting, adultery, etc., ensues.

I posted a different article about love being similar to the effects of cocaine on a different forum and some of the members became really inflammatory about it. I'm not sure what to expect here.

How might we integrate such a thing into the MBTI? It certainly seems to fit with studies that indicate that the types are actually often better off not marrying their opposites, despite the attraction.

What do you think? Is all this bunk? If you think so, with what model would you suggest it be replaced and why? What are your personal experiences on the matter? To what conclusions have your personal studies lead in regards to this subject? ]]> kvothe27 http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16529 A Former Subway Worker Made a Breakthrough Discovery in Math http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16528&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 10:35:19 GMT Sounds like an INTP, or at least is living the INTP dream Unheralded Mathematician Bridges the Prime Gap... Sounds like an INTP, or at least is living the INTP dream

Unheralded Mathematician Bridges the Prime Gap ]]> Architect http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16528 Rote Utilization. http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16525&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 05:04:45 GMT I recently paid for an IQ test. There were several sections (vocab, mathematics, etc.) and you received a score for each section, the mean of the... I recently paid for an IQ test. There were several sections (vocab, mathematics, etc.) and you received a score for each section, the mean of the scores was your IQ. My highest scored category was 'rote utilization', the score was ten points higher than my overall IQ. I looked into it and it seems like this would be the short term memorization of a set of numbers (codes, phone numbers). Can anyone elaborate more on rote utilization? ]]> Synthetix http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16525 Using shadow functions http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16523&goto=newpost Tue, 21 May 2013 02:34:18 GMT When do you use shadow functions or try to "compromise" with them? meaning use them as a form of novelty even though you know your not optimal at it.

Te: when making a decision, which can be forever but sometimes I will just tell myself to be decisive if necessary and organize my plans

Ni: I try to visualize the whole of a system or situation without really having any exact specifics; try to look into the future like world events or technology

Se: doing solo sports such as skating, surfing, jiu-jitsu where I attempt to act in the immediate environment (idk if this is different then Ne, never liked team sports much but always thought it was weird I was into individual sports being an intp)

Fi: trying to understand individual values of others, expressing what I really think

- I have heard using too much shadow functions can bog you down or be deceiving as your mainly efficient with your main functions, but its good for insight and new ideas ]]> Analyzer http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16523 Id, ego and super-ego http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16522&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 22:59:48 GMT I considered this rather interesting and it might enhance your understanding of MBTI. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego I... I considered this rather interesting and it might enhance your understanding of MBTI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego

I didn't really read it myself though. I'm too lazy, I can't be bothered with "objective-education". ]]> Oubliette own8ge http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16522 Gravity http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16521&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 21:49:55 GMT In a cosmic landscape primarily made up of fermions and bosons, where the fermion has a negative force of attraction (meaning it contracts) and the... In a cosmic landscape primarily made up of fermions and bosons, where the fermion has a negative force of attraction (meaning it contracts) and the boson has a positive force of attraction (meaning it repels) perhaps this implication has a major impact on how we think of gravity. What if large densities of fermion interaction, such as planets, provide this sort of attractive force since the fermion numbers heavily outweigh that of empty space, while the cosmological constant is a repulsive force primarily governed by an excess of boson forces ? ]]> SLushhYYY http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16521 Adventuring http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16520&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 20:51:42 GMT Image: http://threepanelsoul.com/comics/2013-05-20-277.png I think RPG games as we know them lack meaning, largely lack adventure, and lack...

I think RPG games as we know them lack meaning, largely lack adventure, and lack actual role-playing too, which are all problems that are deeply intertwined.

A lack of meaning can best be understood by stopping at any point during your next play session and asking yourself, why am I doing this, not just as in what are you getting out of it, I mean why do you want whatever it is you get out of it, fundamentally why are you playing this game? Story is a big part of it, we play to advance the plot, as is combat, we play for the visceral satisfaction of it, but there can be more meaning to it to wanting to advance the story just to see where it goes or engaging in combat for it's own sake. I find games are at their best when they have several layers of meaning, for example killing Lautrec in Dark Souls isn't an especially difficult or novel fight, but it's an act of revenge, I took out his companions first then savoured my fight with him, I enjoyed making him suffer.

Ideally every fight, indeed every action the player makes would be so meaningful and the key to making it meaningful is that something's at stake, the entirety of Dark Souls revolves around having one's EXP represented as a value of "souls" at stake, and without the aid of a bonfire one has a limited amount of health, and with death meaning the potential loss of accumulated souls the loss of virtually any health becomes meaningful in a greater context than the current engagement. So my personal vendetta against Lautrec was just yet more meaning to an already meaningful fight, but meaning isn't just relevant to fighting and to explain that I have to start with what adventuring really is.

As said in the comic above "adventurers gotta eat" which is something suspiciously absent from almost every adventure game, novel and movie, which is especially strange in the context of games, I mean as an adventurer in Skyrim what's your motivation to go adventuring, what's your character's motivation? A house in Skyrim isn't a home, at most it's a trophy cabinet and storage space, your character has no family, a servant and a spouse perhaps but what are they if not simply yet more objects to be collected?

I think an adventurer needs a home life to give meaning to their travels, to create both a juxtaposition and to explain why an adventurer goes adventuring in the first place, of course it would be impossible to script a sedate married life (then again if neither are the talky type...) but if you're just popping in every now and then maybe s/he'll react to how long you've been gone, ask you what you've been up to (to which you'll have several standard replies, plus quest specific ones), comment on any new gear you may have (particularly expensive/unique items), etc, you get the idea.

There could even be periodic scripted events like a dinner party, your spouse proposes it, asks you for money and/or to go get stuff, tells you when it's going to be (like tomorrow night or something), while s/he's preparing tells you to go out so you're out of the way, then when you get back people from around town or VIPs from abroad (depending upon how famous you are) are there chatting, eating, drinking, etc. This opens up the opportunity for new quests, interesting dialogue, potential conflict (if the wrong people show up) as well as introducing you to characters you might not have met or normally can't access, plus the ego boost of people admiring your trophies & home. Or if you're late to the party, don't show up entirely, mess up the preparations, etc, you get berated by your wife/husband, assuming that is they weren't taken hostage by a daedric prince during the party, then you'll get berated after saving them.

Furthermore there's the costs of food, upkeep, keeping your spouse happy, etc, these drains on a player's resources make getting those resources more meaningful, those riches you hear of in a tavern aren't simply riches anymore, they're funds to keep your home prosperous, your spouse happy, your servants fed and the town guard paid off to pay special attention to ensuring your home is kept safe, and any number of other things, which of course makes everything you do to get those riches more meaningful.

Finally actual role-playing, a frustration I had with Skyrim was that it neither allowed me to fully express my character and there was always the designer's intended character hanging over me, the Nordic brute my character was supposed to be. Role playing is all about expression and feedback, the Fable series did this with a morality system and one of my favourite parts of Fallout 3 was going to the main slaver camp just after blowing up Megaton and having the usually difficult door man meekly apologise when he realised how evil I was.

Clearly role-playing adds meaning to one's actions, so the more nuanced the means for self expression and recognition the better, ideally almost everything the player does would affect their self expression in some way (if I let a bandit escape maybe I should get good karma? or at least lose some for gunning them down as they run away) also ideally the game would recognise a wide range of character types, I might be a ruthless prick with a good guy veneer or I might act/dress like a gritty badass but my actions give me away as a secretly decent guy, heck I could be completely random or utterly sociopathic with everyone but a select few, if a game could recognise and respond to these characters it would make role-playing in that game a deep & engaging experience. ]]> Gaming Cognisant http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16520 Deus Ex: H.E. could have been better http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16519&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 18:10:04 GMT I've been watching some videos about the number of FPS games out there, and it made me realise how a very thematic game like "Deus Ex: Human Revolution" could have been even better.

I think everyone got a laugh when Adam Jensen said "I didn't ask for this"', now I liked the character, indeed there's aspects of who he is that are shown subtlety by his apartment, his office, the way other characters interacted with him, which really sold me on his character, on the surface he seems to have his shit together but just beneath there is a lonely and emotionally damaged man which has nothing to do with the events going on in game.

In fact upon recollection and comparison the entire game wasn't that great, sure the controls were slick, the scenery was pretty, but I did get tired of hacking terminals and for the most part combat was too simple, even on the higher difficulties, but the story carried the experience so well that it wasn't until recently that I realised that.

Anyway to the point, as great a character as Jensen is I think the game could have been better if augmentation wasn't something that was thrust upon him (which I just realised would barely change the character at all) rather it would be interesting if... Well y'know the prevalence of FPS games is largely due to the idea of a gun equalling empowerment, perhaps not to all players but to a large proportion of the audience FPS games specifically target the idea that having and knowing how to use a gun (which is something anyone can learn) is, at least thematically, the only thing separating the player from the protagonist, basically it's an empowerment fantasy, one that's all the more engaging because it's more realistic than say superpowers or being some battle honed badass.

I think the recent Deus Ex could have both embraced and deconstructed this theme if Jensen wasn't given his augmentations but rather offered the choice, a special discount given to him by his boss enabling him to afford the augmentations most people could only dream of, but no obligation to buy. But there's a hidden price, the more augmentations the player chooses to get the less Adam is human, which some people express concern about but it's not really an issue until he catches up with whatshername and depending upon how much of him is left she either accepts or rejects his feelings for her.

This in turn affects the ending, the one that involves ridding the world of augmentations is effectively suicide for a heavily augmented Adam, just imagine his final bitter speech, or for the Adam that got the girl his motivation to rid the world of augmentation is essentially one of spiteful conservatism. Alternately deciding not to rid the world of augmentation is for the augmented Adam a matter of hope and resolve, his human life is effectively forfeit but change is to be expected and there's not telling what the future holds, on the other hand for the unaugmented Adam it's about the moral high ground, he has no right to kill people, whether they are human or not.

So the empowerment fantasy is played both ways, whether augmented Adam is a naive Icarus or a bold Prometheus is for the player to decide, likewise refusing the call is a valid choice, if anything getting through the game using stealth, conventional weaponry and worn body armour would prove that in a transhumanist world people don't have to undergo body modification to keep up, that it's the quality of the person, not their parts that's really important.

In fact given bits of out-of-place dialogue and how frankly ridiculous the phrase "I didn't ask for this" is I think it's quite possible this is what the game's designers intended it to be and that for whatever reason the game was cut down, likely to be rushed out.

I've got half a mind to send an abusive email to Edios to be forwarded to whoever made that decision. ]]> Gaming Cognisant http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16519 (5th) Dichotomy: Decisiveness. Or? http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16518&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 17:37:56 GMT Dichotomy: How the present moment will be spend. Will it be spend to sustain a perspective, or to speculate perspectives? Function: Subjective... Dichotomy: How the present moment will be spend. Will it be spend to sustain a perspective, or to speculate perspectives?
Function: Subjective Decisiveness and Objective Decisiveness.

I will try to explain this phenomenon below. How this phenomenon is or could be intertwined with MBTI, I will leave indecisive; for you to objectively speculate. ;)

To think requires a perspective to be chosen for the thought to be contained by this perspective so that the present moment is being adjusted to that perspective to then enhance the future. It is the reason of our decisiveness. At all times you must choose things. Will you do this? Will you look at this? Will you think about this? The possibilities are endless. All these possibilities represent multiple different perspectives. Perspectives whose all have different possible outcomes. We must choose a perspective we think is most rewarding. If a perspective is chosen we can make decisions that will feed that perspective. But there is a different way to make decisions. We can also make decisions without our minds being contained in a certain perspective; this is its subjective side. You see all possibilities but take no position. You take no perspective. You stay indecisive. The objective side, which is necessary aswell, chooses a perspective so that the thoughts of the subject will stay within this canvas of thinking. It will make sure that what is being thought connects to what will be thought in the future. Without this, there is no objectivity. We wouldn’t be able to extrovert multiple thoughts that would be connected to each other. The subjective side is necessary as whatever perspective you will choose will be irreversible. The choices you will make can’t be undone. A rewarding perspective must thus be chosen. But what is rewarding? The subjective side speculates this.

So to recap:
Objective decisiveness: To choose perspectives to think in that will comply with the previous perspective that was being thought in.

Subjective decisiveness: To speculate perspectives of thoughts, but take no preference.

Spoiler:

Movies about subjective decisiveness: Mr. Nobody. Magnolia. Lola Rennt.
Movies about objective decisiveness: Das Leben der Anderen. Pulp Fiction.

If life is a chess-game. Then Subjective deciders are players whom are too humble to make a move, they can't maintain a strategy as with every made move they explore tons of new strategies generating in to many possible outcomes for the consciousness to calculate. The objective decider would have 1 strategy and direct possibilities towards this strategy.

Now, you could argue that Objective Decisiveness is equal to J/Directive, but then, am I not an INFJ? I am an INFJ. So, well well.. Hmmm.. Confusion. :) ]]> own8ge http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16518 What are the best remedies to beat second guessing / anxiety ? http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16517&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 15:42:32 GMT Whenever you have to take a major decision and you have rehearsed it for a long time in your head, then you announce it (waiting to put it later in... Whenever you have to take a major decision and you have rehearsed it for a long time in your head, then you announce it (waiting to put it later in concrete form when the opportunity arises), have you ever felt "trapped" like you wish you hadn't announced it in first place and wondering if it's still the right decision ?

How do you beat second guessing and self doubt and all the anxiety that comes with it ? What are your best remedies ? ]]> INTP DIALECTIC http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16517 Would you apply for a high risk/high suck job, so you could retire earlier? http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16495&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 10:33:14 GMT As in my case, one idea I've been contemplating is that of joining the Foreign Legion and, given my living in (a comparably cheap part of) Central Europe, retiring at the ripe old age of (!) 23, even though living a bohemian lifestyle, is not out of reach.

Another one is just somehow getting a high-pay job in some expensive part of the continent (Switzerland comes to mind, however hard actually getting a job there may be. Also, not EU), and, yet again, retiring at an early age.Of course, one has to pay for the accommodation and the commodities in this case, which makes calculating with this harder. Obviously, higher pay, and therefore early retirement is more easily achived by jobs that few can, or want to do.

Mindful research suggests that mortality rates are lower amongst those who, given the choice between these two, go for the later.

Would you ever even consider the first one?

The second one (geo-arbitrage, as I've seen it called by some [inrelevant thoughts about weasel words, and their avoidance surface]) seems like a no-brainer to me, but I am eager to hear some thoughts on the contrary. ]]> School and Work Cafih http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16495 MBTI Quirks http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16488&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 04:43:27 GMT Here we share the little quirks we notice in various personality types, that might not be obviously derived from theory alone, and discuss/fine-tune... Here we share the little quirks we notice in various personality types, that might not be obviously derived from theory alone, and discuss/fine-tune our observations with each other. ]]> Mr Write http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16488 Stoicism http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16487&goto=newpost Mon, 20 May 2013 03:58:53 GMT Thoughts? While there are definitely disadvantages to shutting out emotions of any kind, I quite like this philosophy because it gives the... Thoughts?

While there are definitely disadvantages to shutting out emotions of any kind, I quite like this philosophy because it gives the individual complete control over his/her perspective.

Unrelated: Does anyone know why there are viking/dwarf runes in the icons box? Not that I'm complaining... ]]> Philosophy Nott http://intpforum.com//showthread.php?t=16487