So- Is any of us really religious?

[Psychotic But Cute]

A fellow INTP and I were discussing religion in school today. It was generally agreed neither of us were very religious and had a had type believing there is only one god. Is it like that for the rest of you? Really want to hear thoughts on this.

[Da Blob]

I think that you will find that around here, "religious' is more or less a politically-incorrect word (pretty much) Religious people are the 'bad' people while 'spiritual' people are the good people.

I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and No! it has not been easy to believe a single Loving God considering the world we live in - but I managed to do so and learned a great deal about myself in the process and a little bit about God, Himself...

[tashi]

I've been an atheist as far back as I can remember, despite the religious veiws of both my parents. So no, I would not consider myself a religious person. I'm not sure how related this is to being an INTP though.

[Dormouse]

I can't make up my mind as to whether I'm religious or not. I guess agnostic would be the best fit for me... Assuming I was forced to choose a single term to refer to myself as, which I'm not. :p
I'm just your friendly neighbour semi-undecided-mildly-christian-almost-buddhist-clueless-spiritual-hippie-wannabe-vegan-mythologically-incorrect-too-much-freedom-of-interpretation-some-atheistic-tendencies-gullible-inner-conflict-ist. :confused:

[Scourgexlvii]

Yes, The above poster is rather correct, as religion, has for the most part, discouraged individualism and free thought, so spiritual is a better word. And yes, I am rather spiritual, but I am not completely "following blindly," I take the words of the bible based on the context. Also, I take a stance of semi-agnosticism, the same way, I don't truly believe all scientific postulates. I know that whatever my belief is, it is partially (read: mostly) untrue in the end, however, I believe that my belief is as close as I can get to reality in my opinion, knowing what I know currently.

[Firehazard159]

I can't make up my mind as to whether I'm religious or not. I guess agnostic would be the best fit for me... Assuming I was forced to choose a single term to refer to myself as, which I'm not. :p
I'm just your friendly neighbour semi-undecided-mildly-christian-almost-buddhist-clueless-spiritual-hippie-wannabe-vegan-mythologically-incorrect-too-much-freedom-of-interpretation-some-atheistic-tendencies-gullible-inner-conflict-ist. :confused:

Sounds about right.k Though, since I just learned about ignostism from IRC, I'd have to say I'm that, rather than agnostic :P

[Vrecknidj]

I understand Jung. I think he's right about some things. There's a God, but it's probably nothing like what most people think.

Dave

[fullerene]

You probably weren't here to see it, but I recently made a thread on what people consider "religious" as opposed to "spiritual", because I really don't know which better describes me. I sorta carry elements of both terms.

Given some of my life, it would be lunacy not to believe in some sort of metaphysical realm, with what you could call spiritual beings inhabiting it. I've had prophetic dreams, I've interpreted other peoples' prophetic dreams (not with assurance--but times when people have said "hey, I just had a dream about X", and for some reason I just knew that I should tell person Y about that dream, only to find out that it fit their life and told them things that I couldn't have possibly known). I've had message-carrying-benevolent-spiritual somethings (I just think of them in terms of angels, because they fit the description) be in/near me twice (the power in my bones shook so hard that it would have scared me, if it didn't feel like I was being flooded with assurance and a very clear "yes, I am here for [this part of my life that's been stressing me out a bit]" message with it). I've also had fear-feeding-anger-inspiring-malicious spirits (again, I just think of them in terms of demons because they fit that description, roughly) come after me, which made my attempts at speech turn to whispers of air as they left my mouth, and held me down as if paralyzed until I stopped trying to throw them off myself, prayed, and remembered that it's not like I could do anything if not for God and his protection anyway.

There're also dozens of maybe-coincidental answers to prayers... but I think an objective observer would say that coincidences in that area are unlikely, too. Just last week, even, one of my friends busted up someone else's knee at a soccer game, and his knee cap was off-center, and you could tell he was in a lot of pain. I was praying for him as the ambulance was on its way, ~10 minutes after his injury (sadly, prayer is not my first response to things like it should be :(), and his knee cap just suddenly popped back into place. There're more things like that than I could even count--but I should say that I'm also extremely careful not to think of God/prayer as a magic box to get things out of. Generally I try to stop myself from selfish prayers--unless I realize that the only reason I'm doing that is because I don't think it's right to ask for things that worry me--which is an accidental insult towards God's character, to think that my worries, even if they're sinful, don't matter to him.

Even now I'm marveling at how remarkable it is that such a magnificent being puts up with my sinful motives, asking for insignificant things, so long as it's exercising faith in him (in this case, faith in his goodness--that he's willing to come down to my level and place importance on the things I find important in that moment--even if my mouth would say that they're not important).


I actually get really mad when someone talks about how God must be cruel (unless they're just saying it because of some specific painful event that happened to them I know about, in which case pity overwhelms it--and I don't even think I was capable of pity until these past few weeks/months, when my prayers switched from "grant me wisdom in every situation" to "teach me how to love, for love is more important than wisdom and wisdom is making me miserable [long story]" -- I think it's even pushing me from INTP to INFP, because emotions are really starting to make sense to me now, and my science/math/logical skills seem to be going downhill), even if I don't show it. My insides flare up in almost the same reaction as if someone were picking on a physical friend of mine for something they didn't deserve. Just a little "hey, you don't even know the guy. Shut up and stop picking on him like you actually know what happened."

At the same time, though, theology is soooo important to me. This is the more "religious" component, where the first part of my post was probably more "spiritual." On a basic level, you could say that I think theology is important because it's nonsensical to build a relationship with God without listening and learning about him. Obviously, this is a pretty sharp split from the vague spirituality that's so popular today... as they would usually say God comes from within, while I definitely think he's from outside of me. I've cared about theology ever since middle school, despite the fact that my conception of God changes every few years. Apparently God's both flexible and patient, because he's put up with a lot of shit from my mind--being slow to realize things I should have recognized long ago, possibly accusing him of a lot of evil things, being unwilling to trust him despite ample evidence that I should (I didn't realize how painful this was, on the receiving end, until I got a girlfriend, who mistrusted me and unfairly accused me of lots of things for about 2 weeks. It's one of the most painful things I've ever felt), and things like that.

I still find the Bible to be a tremendous eye into who God is. Even if it's been corrupted over the centuries (and I'm not even convinced it has been--I've heard historical arguments both ways, and don't really find any of them convincing, because there's just too much unseen evidence in every historical argument), there's a lot of true things in it. However, I wouldn't recommend reading it "straight." Or... maybe I would--I'm not sure. I know if you don't take care to learn a bit of Greek/Hebrew, study the cultural context, etc., several passages are the exact opposite of what they appear in English. I don't want to say "I wouldn't recommend reading it unless you intend to study it" simply because God can obviously teach you through it (and everyone's gotta start somewhere)--but the fact that I'm even considering saying it obviously means that I don't believe he can talk to people through it on a surface reading. *sigh*... this is what I mean--me and my mind suck... relentlessly resisting Faith at every turn. Once again, always and (at least) until I die, I must rely on his mercy.

I did decide, a decade or so back, that if my beliefs didn't shift in some major way every few years, I would start to worry about them and wonder why not. I mean, relationships aren't supposed to be static, are they? Being an INTP, though (or at least, I was, until just recently, maybe? We'll see if this love is permanent or not, I suppose), I don't force that change at all. I'm extremely careful not to, actually. I'm still young (almost 21, so this has only been going on for 8 years or so), but I've been blindsided by two major paradigm shifts in my theology since then... despite being intensely careful to be as right as possible, and extremely sure that I was right throughout the whole time. But *shrugs*, that's life. Even if I may get depressed, after a while, with my continuously being wrong, at least I won't have to worry that I've stopped growing :D.

[Darby]

I go to a catholic school, so i guess im supposed to be religious, but i'm having none of that. I'm even our faith ambassador. The closest I have bothered to get so far is that there is a presence, and specifically concerning humanity as a whole, it is the potential rather than the reality that we have, assuming i am supposed to put a name on the most powerful thing i can picture right now that i believe to exist, that is god. Concerning the old man in the sky and the creation of the universe, i tend to avoid confrontation with that until i recieve a higher education than High School...or at least a better sense of self.

[Adymus]

Why is one god harder to believe than many gods? If it is necessary for many gods to exist, can we really call them gods? Wouldn't they just be really powerful organisms?

Wait, couldn't you just say that a monotheistic god is also just a really powerful organism?

No I would say it is more like a being that transcends being a being, does that make sense?

No, not really. I mean, if it is a conscious entity then shouldn't that constitute as being an organism?

Well what makes you think it has to be conscious? Consciousness is a tool for those who must experience reality to allow them to make sense of it and survive it. Why would something that created reality be built to make sense of it, when essentially, it is reality? Why would you have to make sense of something you already understand infinitely? If you could say that god is everything, then I should ask again, would it be necessary to have more than one.

Well there already is.

Already is what?

More then one god.

How so?

Because everything in the universe functions as seemingly separate entities, yet they are interconnected...

Go on...

That's it... I guess what I am saying is, there could be more than one god who exists as many mini gods, who work in perfect synchronization with each other...

How can that not just be seen as one god then?

It can't.

Yeah...

[floccinaucci]

Yeah I'd say I'm religious. The force is strong in me. it's tiny organism in your blood called midichlorians.

[Artifice Orisit]

I think that you will find that around here, "religious' is more or less a politically-incorrect word (pretty much) Religious people are the 'bad' people while 'spiritual' people are the good people.

I am a believer and follower of Jesus Christ and No! it has not been easy to believe a single Loving God considering the world we live in - but I managed to do so and learned a great deal about myself in the process and a little bit about God, Himself...
Da Blob's the pinnacle of spirituality, if you seek faith, he's your man.
From what I've come to understand he's not a typical Christian, so if you want to discuss theology with him don't jump to conclusions, he's really thought about what he believes in.

I'm the exact opposite, a sort of nihilist, but not the typical depressed/fatalistic type, I actually consider nihilism to be a positive belief with connections to absurdism, humanism, and the acceptance of personal responsibility (in a godless universe one must provided his/her own meaning and accept absolute responsibility for his/her self, i.e. be your own god (but not a solipsist)).

And of course this forum's full of people with every other possible belief between these two, so yeah if you really want to expand your mind go around and ask everybody what their position is.

[Agent Intellect]

If I had to put a name to my "spirituality" it would have to be an equation like:

X((Ignostic * pantheist)^absurdist + (open minded skeptic)^existentialist + (theologian/(philosopher * empiricist)) + (scientist * naturalist)^evidence + (secular humanist)^(futurist * transhumanist))^doubt = Me


Where X = placeholder for concept of God(s) or lack therof.

[Artifice Orisit]

X((Ignostic * pantheist)^absurdist + (open minded skeptic)^existentialist + (theologian/(philosopher * empiricist)) + (scientist * naturalist)^evidence + (secular humanist)^(futurist * transhumanist))^doubt = Me
Wow, how did you do that?

[Anthile]

Wow, how did you do that?



Drugs. It's all about drugs nowadays. :cat:


If I wanted to put my "spirituality" in such an equation it would simply look like Anthile=me
Think about the implications.

[Artifice Orisit]

You're a solipsist?

Or would that be:
Anthile = (Psychological+Trauma)(Me+Narcissism^Existentialis m)-Nihilism

Edit: I have no idea why there's a space in "Existentialism"

[sniktawekim]

it all depends on what you mean by "religious"

[Psychotic But Cute]

Danke, this has been pretty useful. I'm still young, I have time to figure out exactly what I believe. I was curious, and should have been more specific about this, if any of us have a set religion, like Catholicism or Jewish or the like. I like to believe there is a something more than us, a bigger plan or something, but I have a hard time believing there is ONE almighty god who is everywhere all the time. My family is Catholic and, once again, I'd like to believe, but it's annoying how prejudiced they can be and how they ignore some parts of the Bible and not others. This makes hard to listen and take them seriously. That is not to say everything the preach is wrong, I just feel it can be misguided.

[sniktawekim]

I have a hard time believing there is ONE almighty god


2 all powerful beings cannot exist at the same time.

and if there was more than one god, and they were both powerful, i would assume that one would kill the others "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!"

[shoeless]

only if you believe that the gods are complete egotistic douchebags & can't coexist.

personally i have a hard time subscribing to any religion just because, you know, i have a hard time believing that the "right answer" is something that humans could really comprehend, much less develop themselves, purely for the fact that our knowledge is so infinitely small... i think i've mentioned this elsewhere on the forum. maybe not.

either way, that doesn't mean stop looking. it just means confidence in the subject is pretty much without foundation. in my humble opinion.

[Artifice Orisit]

1. Is a rock still a "rock" if there's nobody around to call it a "rock"?
(is meaning the innate result of existence of construct of the human mind?)

2. If god exists, who gives god meaning, i.e. who created god?
(the only logical way god could exist and have meaning is if meaning is self created)

3. If god (a mind) can create it's own meaning, why do human minds need a god?

4. If there is no need for god, and no proof of it's existence... does it exist?

5. Do you want to be ruled by a god?

[Da Blob]

[QUOTE=Cognisant;124397]1. Is a rock still a "rock" if there's nobody around to call it a "rock"?
No... I think that is what Kant was getting at(?) nothing can 'be' with out a POV that is separate from that Be-ing"

(is meaning the innate result of existence of construct of the human mind?)
Yes 'meaning' is perhaps a word without meaning...

2. If god exists, who gives god meaning, i.e. who created god?
(the only logical way god could exist and have meaning is if meaning is self created)
Example of the above - what is meant by meaning in this context? A) purpose, B) boundaries/dimensions, C) definition, D symbol/representation E) All of the Above F) none of the above... ?

3. If god (a mind) can create it's own meaning, why do human minds need a god?
Perhaps human minds as a collective are a god... and are simply responding to a need to be who/what they are - potentially(?)

4. If there is no need for god, and no proof of it's existence... does it exist?
That depends on the mind in which 'existence' occurs and the validation requirements of that particular mind

5. Do you want to be ruled by a god?
Preferably a god rather than a demon. We are all "ruled' by something. Some claim genetics as their Master, Others claim the environment as their master. etc.

As an aside, it is rather humorous that many 'Christians' will claim that Jesus is My Savior", while few will confess that "Jesus is my Lord (My Master). It is impossible for Him to be One without being the Other. I guess the reason that so many humans rebel against the idea of needing Master is that history does not provide us with many examples of good, kind, loving Masters. Yet how can we become masterpieces, if we do not submit to the hand of a Master?

[sniktawekim]

only if you believe that the gods are complete egotistic douchebags & can't coexist.

personally i have a hard time subscribing to any religion just because, you know, i have a hard time believing that the "right answer" is something that humans could really comprehend, much less develop themselves, purely for the fact that our knowledge is so infinitely small... i think i've mentioned this elsewhere on the forum. maybe not.

either way, that doesn't mean stop looking. it just means confidence in the subject is pretty much without foundation. in my humble opinion.

the only possible way 2 Gods can be omnipotent is if they had the EXACT same will.
otherwise, they wouldnt both be omnipotent.

[sniktawekim]

1. Is a rock still a "rock" if there's nobody around to call it a "rock"?
(is meaning the innate result of existence of construct of the human mind?)

2. If god exists, who gives god meaning, i.e. who created god?
(the only logical way god could exist and have meaning is if meaning is self created)

3. If god (a mind) can create it's own meaning, why do human minds need a god?

4. If there is no need for god, and no proof of it's existence... does it exist?

5. Do you want to be ruled by a god?

1. yes. it might not be described as a rock if no one calls it a rock, but it is still the same object. the rock is still there, whether or not we want it to be, or even if we observe it to be.
how could me not seeing a rock, make the rock not exist?
2. no one has to give something a meaning in order for it to exist.
3. maybe God doesnt have a meaning? last time a checked, physical objects werent meanings - and something doesnt need a meaning/purpose in order to exist.
4. if there is a god, and there is no need for it, and there is no proof of it, then it exists. if there is no god, and there is no need for it, and no proof of it, then it doesnt exist. something doesnt have to be needed to exist, and something doesnt need to be proven to exist in order to exist.
5. no. but if God exists, i cant really help that.

[sniktawekim]

nothing can 'be' with out a POV that is separate from that Be-ing"


how do you know this?

[sniktawekim]

it just means confidence in the subject is pretty much without foundation. in my humble opinion.

never said i disagree, infact, i agree.
and if someone were to give me good evidence to the contrary of my belief, i would believe them.

[monkitman]

Well I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses (unoffically as am not baptized yet) so yes I would say that I am religious.

[Felan]

1. yes. it might not be described as a rock if no one calls it a rock, but it is still the same object. the rock is still there, whether or not we want it to be, or even if we observe it to be.
how could me not seeing a rock, make the rock not exist?
2. no one has to give something a meaning in order for it to exist.
3. maybe God doesnt have a meaning? last time a checked, physical objects werent meanings - and something doesnt need a meaning/purpose in order to exist.
4. if there is a god, and there is no need for it, and there is no proof of it, then it exists. if there is no god, and there is no need for it, and no proof of it, then it doesnt exist. something doesnt have to be needed to exist, and something doesnt need to be proven to exist in order to exist.
5. no. but if God exists, i cant really help that.

If you are looking up at a star 1000 light years away that a hundred years ago got eaten up by a black hole ... does that star still exist? To say no it doesn't exist could be saying that nothing exists except what we know exists. To say yes is to say that existence is what is perceived. At any particular time we can look to the sun and say that it existed 8 minutes ago.

[Agent Intellect]

If you are looking up at a star 1000 light years away that a hundred years ago got eaten up by a black hole ... does that star still exist? To say no it doesn't exist could be saying that nothing exists except what we know exists. To say yes is to say that existence is what is perceived. At any particular time we can look to the sun and say that it existed 8 minutes ago.

The constituent particles of that star would still exist, but it would no longer have the "essence" of being a star. Can a particle contain the essence of what it's a part of at that scale level (more just me thinking to myself)?

[fullerene]

Danke, this has been pretty useful. I'm still young, I have time to figure out exactly what I believe. I was curious, and should have been more specific about this, if any of us have a set religion, like Catholicism or Jewish or the like. I like to believe there is a something more than us, a bigger plan or something, but I have a hard time believing there is ONE almighty god who is everywhere all the time. My family is Catholic and, once again, I'd like to believe, but it's annoying how prejudiced they can be and how they ignore some parts of the Bible and not others. This makes hard to listen and take them seriously. That is not to say everything the preach is wrong, I just feel it can be misguided.


At the risk of starting a war with nicholas: I feel like I should say "be careful with Catholicism." I can't say anything about the people at the lay level (there are so many and they're so varied that you can't really say anything about "Catholics" at all), but the official statements of belief in the Catechism and things are hideously unbiblical. I'm not saying that that's necessarily a problem, but it's definitely a problem if your church holds it as canon, and still teaches the opposite of what it does.

There are numerous contradictions between Catholicism and the bible on every level, deep and shallow. Mind you, like I said, I'm working off of the Catechism when I say that... so obviously you'll get different beliefs from different Catholics.

[sniktawekim]

The constituent particles of that star would still exist, but it would no longer have the "essence" of being a star. Can a particle contain the essence of what it's a part of at that scale level (more just me thinking to myself)?

this is the same response from me.
existence of other objects is not determined by our perceptions.
our perceptions of the existence of other objects is based on our perceptions.
and there is a BIG difference.

[nickgray]

Personally I strongly dislike religion in the social context, as for the religious concepts and other spiritual and metaphysical stuff - mostly I find it to be ridiculous and absurd. I don't really care what kind of things one believes in, as long as they don't try to brainwash me or talk with me about the subject way too often than needed.

[Anthile]

You're a solipsist?

Or would that be:
Anthile = (Psychological+Trauma)(Me+Narcissism^Existentialis m)-Nihilism

Edit: I have no idea why there's a space in "Existentialism"<



Short answer: yes. Long answer: no. :phear:


It's rather complicated, really. I will answer that question when I come back.

[Artifice Orisit]

Short answer: yes. Long answer: no.
But yes is longer than no :confused:

(just being a clown)

[Agent Intellect]

I would appreciate it if one of the solipsists made the universe a more bearable place to live (or at least tell us all why we're wasting our time).

[Felan]

The constituent particles of that star would still exist, but it would no longer have the "essence" of being a star. Can a particle contain the essence of what it's a part of at that scale level (more just me thinking to myself)?

Or even a particle somehow retained some essence of what it was part of still be able to retain such in a black hole.

I do think the question of existence is more than material that makes something up. I think existence is also the form and expression of those materials. Otherwise to what purpose would there be at all for the word?

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

I am really religious. One of the things about religion important to me (versus, I guess, non-INTPs) is having a precise schema to place things in. If I am to have faith, first I must know what is faith. What is faith's relationship with knowledge? What is knowledge, what is reason? And so forth.

I'd probably have more to post if I had read anything besides the OP.

[Thoughtful]

Nick Said it well. I like having an idea what life is about. Besides, if it turns out to be total bull-crap, then I'll be dead by that point and won't really care. :)

I'm a spiritual person, I'm also a Christian, But I subscribe to Ghandi's view on Christians:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

The fact that God chose to place us on this earth and let us choose for ourselves between "good" and "evil" instead of forcing us to choose one or the other, has lead me to oppose many laws that "christian righting extremists" try to push through legislation; especially if I feel such laws cannot be effectively enforced, or if they do more harm than good (Example: How many people in Mexico are dying over the war on drugs?).

My view on "sinners" can be pretty much summed up by Jesus' response to the woman caught in adultery: "Neither do I condemn thee, now go, and sin no more." (can't be bothered to look up the exact reference, sorry.)

I think If every Christian did that, I think the world would be a much better place, sadly, most do not.

[Zero]

I'm an atheist. Maybe kind of loosely. I'm not really new age or agnostic. I kind of like some various religious stuff, which probably makes me look agnostic. I came from Christianity. I don't believe anything from Christianity these days.

Anyway, there are a few religious people around the boards. If you check out the topics here you'll find them.

We could say that EVERYONE is religious, because it just has to do with what you believe and we can pretty much name every belief system and give the people of it a name. Agnostic and Atheist, for instance, aren't exactly set belief systems, but they are still titles that give us an idea what people believe in.