Mary

[Kidege]

As I was praying the rosary yesterday I noticed we don't have a thread on Mary.

What I would like to know is what is your take on Mary. Is she the mother of God? A historical character who happened to have a well remembered son? A co-redemptor? An archangel? A lady those semi-pagans with the tacky churches mistakenly worship?

(My threads usually fail, but here it is, for your... entertainment/edification/etc.)

[Ermine]

She is the mother of Jesus, and a good person. Certainly worth revering, but not worshipping.

[flow]

I'd say she is just as worthy of worship/prayer as anyone else in mythology. My dad is an INTP and claims that Catholicism has the richest mythology of any religion, and he's certainly researched as many of them as time has allowed him. I'm personally an Agnostic, I don't see the harm in worshipping anything or anyone, but for me it is unnecessary. I do appreciate that Catholicism recognizes Mary's importance and in a way recognizes the importance of women. I only wish they allowed them to be priests (and allow priests to marry), and truly brought equal rights to the church. Each religion seems flawed to me, therefore I'll never devote myself to a single one. However! I was raised Catholic, and I do appreciate some of what it has to offer.

[Adaire]

I suppose I'm neutral in regards to Mary; just another religious figure. My parents on the other hand think that worshiping Mary (or any saint) is a sin, since it supposedly violates the commandment to 'have no other gods before me.' They think most Catholics are going to hell. They told me once when I was a kid that Catholics always party the night before mass/confession and justify a sinning as they like with confession. I don't really know much about Catholicism outside the Reformation and Renaissance, but I'm inclined to think that the above is bullshit discrimination.

I always liked Catholic people; the ones I knew were always very laid back and fun. They're also not the type evangelize or get haughty about their beliefs. I don't know if European Catholics are similar to the Latin ones though.

[Decaf]

I suppose I'm neutral in regards to Mary; just another religious figure. My parents on the other hand think that worshiping Mary (or any saint) is a sin, since it supposedly violates the commandment to 'have no other gods before me.' They think most Catholics are going to hell.

I've always been curious how Catholics justify worshipping Mary, but I suppose they must have some rationalization. Maybe they're allowed to worship people who are filled with the Holy Spirit?

And as a side note...
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/RootWeb/actual%20virgin%20mary%20grilled%20cheese%20sandwi ch.gif

We don't really know what Mary looked like... so couldn't these sightings actually be images of Madonna?

[walfin]

I've always been curious how Catholics justify worshipping Mary

I've been told that it's something contained in 2 Maccabees which is conspicuously absent from the protestant Bible.

I've always had the view that protestants who claimed that Catholics were idolatrous were being absurd. Catholics don't claim that she is God (which is still supposed to be the trinity), even though they pray to her.

Though from a non-Christian point of view she was just another jewish woman, one of many, and the virgin birth would be a myth from a non-Christian point of view (Objectively it could still be said that somebody called Jesus existed considering that there were extra-biblical Roman records of his crucifixion and stuff like that, and he had to have a mother).

[Reverse Transcriptase]

She's made up. Fictional. Just like the whole Jesus myth.

That being said, enjoy yer myth! Myths are very important, and the Jesus myth is especially good because it has such strong themes of boundary dissolution and universal love, acceptance and forgiveness.

[Artifice Orisit]

She cheated on her idiot husband and got away with it.

You go girl! :D

[tom]

She's made up. Fictional. Just like the whole Jesus myth.

That being said, enjoy yer myth! Myths are very important, and the Jesus myth is especially good because it has such strong themes of boundary dissolution and universal love, acceptance and forgiveness.

Ill have to disagree with you there... there is very little doubt that Jesus existed, led a group of disciples and was crucified. As Walfin said, there are accounts from other period sources which explicitly refer to one who calls himself "the king of the jews"


With regards to Mary:
My Gf is a practising Catholic and although many of the rituals seem a little silly, it is essentially a very similar faith to other European sects.

The Roman Catholic church is very commonly accused of idolatry and, from an outsiders point of view, this appears to be so. However, the actual reasoning behind praying to one of the saints/Mary is that they are an intermediary with God, out of a desire/fear/idontknowwhat not to directly talk to the creator of their universe.

My understanding however is that in recent times the Vatican is trying to move the church away from this and toward a more "modern" faith, in the same way the Church of England has supposedly been doing...


(do I actually ever make any sense when I post, or am I just randomly babbling?)

[fullerene]

I understand the whole intermediary thing, but the practice of it still bothers me. The Gospels say that when Jesus died, and earthquake happened that tore the curtain separating the "holiest" place, where only the Jewish Priests were allowed to go, from the rest of the Temple, where the Jewish lay-people were allowed. Not to mention the whole 1 Timothy 2:5 thing ("For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,")... I just dunno.

If it were thought of as a completely different religion, and they didn't claim to be Christians at all, Catholic beliefs wouldn't bother me in the slightest--and really, Catholics on the layman level don't bother me either. There's really no excuse for a priest not to listen to things like this, though, and I'm sure (being priests) they know they're in there.... so the intellectual dishonesty really bothers me.

[Adaire]

here's really no excuse for a priest not to listen to things like this, though, and I'm sure (being priests) they know they're in there.... so the intellectual dishonesty really bothers me.

Well there are whole slews of things in the bible that Protestants like to pretend aren't there. For example, the verses that command God's followers to kill gays and naughty children are surreptitiously ignored. In fact most of the Old Testament is treated that way. I know there is some supposed loophole backed by Paul that essentially states the old testament doesn't count, but if God was omniscient why would he need to nullify previous rules? Especially when it appears only to be done so the religion can catch up with modern morality.

[tom]

Well there are whole slews of things in the bible that Protestants Christians like to pretend aren't there.

fix'd;)

[fullerene]

quite simply: because the rules are not nullified. They're contextualized. OT laws were not given so that they would be followed, but only so that people would be made aware of what would happen if evil were to be annihilated, and perfect morality upheld. The NT is, in a way, God saying "you see how bad this works out? If so, then let's go about this a different way."

It's just a question of whether you view the OT as God screwing up and saying "forget everything I said," or whether you view it as something that humanity needed to live through to believe how badly it would work out. The verse your'e talking about is where Paul basically says "by living under the Law, we became conscious of sin." He actually expressly says don't submit yourselves to the Law anymore, in Galatians.


I'm actually sick of explaining this to people. There have been plenty of books written on the topic, and you could probably find a decent essay or two (admittedly, amongst a lot of short crap) if you googled it. It's not like it takes much effort.

(it is sketchy, I agree, that the popular interpretation does seem to just catch up to current morality--but to that, I'd invoke Sturgeon's Law and say "who cares?")

[Reverse Transcriptase]

quite simply: because the rules are not nullified. They're contextualized. OT laws were not given so that they would be followed, but only so that people would be made aware of what would happen if evil were to be annihilated, and perfect morality upheld. The NT is, in a way, God saying "you see how bad this works out? If so, then let's go about this a different way."
Sorry cryptonia, I'm maybe asking an obvious question, but I wanna know your answer to it. Could you elaborate on why it's bad for evil to be annihilated and perfect morality upheld?

[Agent Intellect]

I think a better question is, why do so many people still see OT God when they think of God? All of the christian fundies that talk about how God hates homosexuals, or that God causes natural disasters to punish people for their sins, and so forth, when the NT says what cryptonia said.

[fullerene]

that's a really, really excellent question/observation, AI. I do have some ideas..... but I want to think about it a little while first.

Could you elaborate on why it's bad for evil to be annihilated and perfect morality upheld?

well, mostly just because, biblically, evil can't coexist with perfect morality any more than light can with darkness. It's sort of popular among "wise" (for a pretty loose standard of wise, lol, since it's real common) people to say "things are rarely black and white, but somewhat gray instead. There's a little good and bad mixed into every moral decision." This is true--but the only way to annihilate evil is to remove the moral decision altogether. In other words, the person who makes the mixed-goodness decision would have to be wiped out and (perhaps) replaced with someone/thing who would make the perfect decision instead.

So I dunno if I would just call it "bad" for evil to be annihilated and perfect morality upheld.... that sorta depends on what you mean. What I can say is that if God annihilated evil, then I'd be destroyed with it--so (selfishly) I'm quite glad God didn't go that route.

[Aiss]

If it were thought of as a completely different religion, and they didn't claim to be Christians at all, Catholic beliefs wouldn't bother me in the slightest (...)

If Catholics didn't claim to be Christians for the first fifteen centuries, even thought they prayed to saints, Protestants would never get to be Christians either. Keep in mind that Solus Christus doctrine is a bit younger than Christianity. Saints were a part of Christian beliefs since very early on, and it was only later than Protestants rejected it based on the stricter interpretation of the Bible, while both Catholic and Orthodox churches didn't. None of these became any less "Christian" than others because of it.

For the record: I'm not Catholic, although some of my family are, so I'm familiar with the faith.

[Toad]

There is archeological evidence of Jesus...no evidence of "Mary" or her so called "virgin birth".

Don't worship nobody. You can admire people's great deeds...but don't worship.

[Claverhouse]

I do appreciate that Catholicism recognizes Mary's importance and in a way recognizes the importance of women. I only wish they allowed them to be priests (and allow priests to marry), and truly brought equal rights to the church.


Yep, and why don't those damned papists hold a carnival where in front of St. Peter's, as a preening Madonna sits singing as once did the crusaders' whore on the Patriarchal Throne in the Church of the Holy Wisdom of God, the new female Pope --- either a sharp-faced, aged, crop-hair, bespectacled feminist intellectual or someone jolly, Oprah would be a popular choice --- showers the fervent crowd with millions of free condoms whilst fondling her lesbian live-in partner with the other hand; denouncing any belief in Christ and announcing the sale of all church property for the benefit of the rich ?


They are not bound by the sick little fantasies of envy currently fashionable in the zeitgeist. --- Although, as a nonbeliever, I say they already have enough fantasies of their own.



Claverhouse :phear:

[Kidege]

Ok, according to Catholic sources, by which I mean the litanies, Mary is the arch of alliance, door of heaven and vessel of the spirit. She is also the queen of angels who ascended to heaven.

I'm not Catholic, but I'm willing to consider any doctrine. If someone is all that, I'll learn the prayers.

If Mary were the arch of alliance it'd mean all those stories in the OT with the arch of a. were possible due to her.

From the Christian POV: I'm not saying Mary is a substitute for the Christ. But she's someone big up there.

From the POV of someone who's doing the praying: It feels different. It feels like a closer "energy" than the Christ's. It feels like an incredibly fine harmony.

[Toad]

The whole damn thing is ridiculous. Are we really even considering the possibility of this fable?

Has the whole iNTP forum gone religion crazy? why are there so many religion threads lately?

[preilemus]

people love to argue, i guess.

[tom]

The whole damn thing is ridiculous. Are we really even considering the possibility of this fable?

Has the whole iNTP forum gone religion crazy? why are there so many religion threads lately?
Thats hardly a position that promotes discourse is it?

[Kuu]

The myth of Mary and the immaculate conception was a quick fix that they used in order to deify the otherwise common man, Christ. Total bollocks if you ask me.

[Kidege]

@Toad:

We're complex people with many interests. ;)

[Inappropriate Behavior]

She cheated on her idiot husband and got away with it.

You go girl! :D

You know, this does actually make the most logical sense. Just think how creative cheating spouses have been over the years to deny their indiscretions. Mary came up with a whopper that, considering the times, was one that she could very well get away with. There were a lot of self described 'messiahs' of that time so integrating such ideas into her excuse was very clever.

[Xel]

When Catholics pray do they always pray to Mary or a Saint or some other intermediary?Do they ever actually pray directly to Jesus or God?Are there certain times for both?

[Kidege]

When Catholics pray do they always pray to Mary or a Saint or some other intermediary?Do they ever actually pray directly to Jesus or God?Are there certain times for both?

They pray to Christ and to the Father too. It's just that they may feel more "attuned" to some saint. It's pretty much personal preference, as far as I know. I think one doesn't pray directly "to" the saint, either... there's always the understanding that the saint will ask for the grace of God on your behalf.

[Xel]

Interesting. The reason I asked was because I have an odd christology/theology which made ebd up wondering when to pray to the father or to the son. So I wondered how Catholics did it with saints.

Anyway my view on Mary is this: The earliest Gospel of Mark does not mention the virgin birth and I an fully aware that Matthew and Luke were fitting parts of Jesus' life to phrophecy. Technically though the virgin birth doesn't matter because originally the prophecy said the messiah would be born to a young woman. However by Matthew's day the word was translated as virgin.

However you should take everything I say with a grain of salt because I tend to be wrong about these sorts of things.

[Tyria]

Catholics pray to Mary because there is an instance in the gospel where Mary convinces Jesus to help someone in need (turning water into wine at the wedding party): her relationship to Jesus is viewed as special. It depends on which branch of Chrisitanity that you deal with, but Mary's virginity can be crucial (as in Catholicism).

It's a matter of faith whether you believe it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed_Virgin_Mary#Roman_Catholic_views