Temporary Closure - discussion

[loveofreason]

The Forum has been temporarily closed to new members.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3393

Feel free to discuss your views on the matter, or just comment.

[Hawkeye]

While it's a shame it has come to this I think it was the best thing to do.

[fullerene]

thirded... it's a shame, but I think it's quite a good idea...

[NoID10ts]

It is unfortunate that it came to this, but I think it was a good idea in order to weed out the problems already here and reestablish equilibrium.

I'm sure we are about to hear some tirades on the travesty of free speech rights and intolerance here. But why should we all have to suffer assholes simply for their right to be assholes? Let them be assholes somewhere else.

[Artifice Orisit]

The right to free speech comes with the responsibility to use it wisely.

[Hawkeye]

Ok,

Haruhi joined the IRC and asked me to post this.

[03:50] <haruhi> for being the same person who accused me of being XIII
[03:50] <haruhi> wtf.
[03:50] <Latro> that would make sense to me, actually
[03:50] <Latro> sounds like something face would do
[03:51] <Hawkeye> Either way, you are causing problems on the forum.
[03:51] <Latro> accuse himself of being XIII
[03:51] <Latro> thus covering himself, and creating tension
[03:51] <Latro> very face-esque
[03:51] <haruhi> But, I'm not face
[03:51] <haruhi> and I have not broken rules
[03:51] <Hawkeye> it doesn't matter
[03:51] <Hawkeye> you are a troll
[03:51] <haruhi> it does, because that's the stated ban reason
[03:51] <haruhi> no, I'm not
[03:52] <Latro> I admittedly didn't see much trolling
[03:52] *** Venture quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
[03:52] <Latro> I wouldn't be surprised if haruhi was face
[03:52] <haruhi> But, I"m not
[03:52] <Latro> but I still didn't see much trolling
[03:52] <Latro> sorry, there's no evidence for me to say that
[03:52] <Latro> I AM, however, curious if lor has IPs
[03:52] <Latro> and connected the two of you that way
[03:52] <haruhi> She can't, because I use my isp all the time
[03:52] <haruhi> I'm happy for her to check
[03:52] <Latro> ...
[03:53] <Latro> it's very easy to get IPs, haruhi
[03:53] <haruhi> yes, but I"m saying she can't have that evidence
[03:53] <Hawkeye> its also easy to mask them...
[03:53] <haruhi> like you said she might
[03:53] <haruhi> yes, but I'm not facetiouspersona
[03:54] <Hawkeye> your writing style is simlar to face's yet your goals are more like XIII's
[03:54] <haruhi> I did that a little to annoy him, after he made that thread about me
[03:54] <haruhi> but I'm not him
[03:55] <haruhi> wait, he didn't make the thread
[03:55] <haruhi> he just spammed it to death
[03:55] <Hawkeye> on the forum it takes you 5 mins to discover who XIII is
[03:55] <haruhi> Because I was instantly accused of being him
[03:56] <haruhi> yes
[03:56] *** gigglegirl (Val@ecnet-FD4C670.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net) left ()
[03:56] <haruhi> The fact of the matter is, I'm not facetiouspersona
[03:56] <haruhi> so there has been a mistake
[03:56] <Hawkeye> you couldn't find all the information in 5 mins
[03:56] <haruhi> because that was the stated reason for the ban
[03:56] <haruhi> I read through the old threads, and I"ve been lurking for 2 weeks
[03:57] <Hawkeye> I still think you are XIII
[03:58] <haruhi> And you think XIII is face?
[03:58] <Hawkeye> nope
[03:58] <haruhi> then my stated reason for ban is incorrect
[03:58] <Hawkeye> quite possibly
[03:58] <Hawkeye> but, I'm not an admin
[03:58] <haruhi> I'm not XIII
[03:58] <haruhi> but that's irrelevant
[03:58] <Hawkeye> exactly
[03:59] <haruhi> Actually, fuck it
[03:59] <haruhi> Can somebody write this down?
[03:59] <haruhi> I'm going to confess
[04:00] <haruhi> if you post it in the ''temporary bans'' thread
[04:00] <haruhi> deal?
[04:00] <Glove> lol okay
[04:00] * Hawkeye will listen
[04:01] *** ihavesuccessfullypeed quit (Quit: mibbit.com: i need to pee again D:)
[04:01] <Hawkeye> awesome reason to quit xD
[04:02] *** buc|eat changed nick to bucolic
[04:03] <Hawkeye> the Japanese have two written dialects... lovely
[04:03] <haruhi> I am XIII, not facetiouspersona. I have been intentionally dropping references to face being XIII for the past day, and the link between Haruhi and XIII was already established. This was an attempt to create general confusion about identities, and paranoia amongst admins. I deliberately tried to make my writing style seem like facetiouspersona's, in order to exacerbate the situation. If you...
[04:03] <haruhi> ...want proof that I am XIII, and not face, observere the writing style of my earlier threads. Also observe that face tried to post through a proxy, but was banned. If he was me, he would not have been banned (because I was already successfully posting through a New York proxy, not that that's an achievment). Admins will be able to verify this information.
[04:04] <Hawkeye> Mmm
[04:04] <Hawkeye> that does follow my view
[04:04] <haruhi> Further verification: the proxy is located on White Plains
[04:04] <haruhi> IP: 208.185.17.7
[04:04] <haruhi> now please post that to the thread
[04:04] <Hawkeye> but then again, XIII did say I was unintelligent
[04:04] <Hawkeye> ^^
[04:04] <haruhi> lol
[04:04] <haruhi> fair play
[04:05] <haruhi> Glove, you doing it?
[04:05] <haruhi> or you, Hawkeye?
[04:05] <haruhi> I'm very glad that my plan has suceeded so spectacularly, but I can't let face take credit.
[04:05] <Hawkeye> If you want me too. Be warned however... Your ban may still stand for other reasons
[04:05] <haruhi> *succeeded
[04:05] <haruhi> yes
[04:05] <haruhi> I expect to stay banned
[04:05] <haruhi> please include that last sentence, as well
[04:05] <haruhi> thanks
[04:06] <haruhi> the one about credit
[04:06] <haruhi> and all the details
[04:06] <Hawkeye> I will, although I don't like that statement
[04:06] <haruhi> ok
[04:06] <haruhi> :-) You didn't write it
[04:06] <haruhi> put it in quotes, or summat
[04:07] <Hawkeye> I'll copy the entire Chat text
[04:07] <Glove> glad I got on irc
[04:07] <Hawkeye> ^^
[04:07] <Glove> :p
[04:07] <haruhi> Haruhi was quite masterful, no?
[04:07] <haruhi> yes
[04:07] <haruhi> yes, Haruhi was
[04:07] *** Glove quit (Quit: CGI:IRC)
[04:08] <haruhi> You posted it yet?


I have done this. Take what you will from it.

[Ogion]

Indeed Cognisant.

Ogion

[fullerene]

my main question is "what to do about troll-like characters in the future?" This all sort of lasted as long as it did because face was troll-like, but never able to be pinned down with solid, concrete evidence. Are we willing to tighten the "trolling" rules a little bit by clamping down on personal attacks? That is... he made plenty of them, in little parts of his posts--but never egregious enough to get himself banned. It seems like amending things so that those are tolerated a little less could help out quite a bit... but what does everyone else think?

edit: oops... I didn't see hawkeye when this was posted, sorry. This was not in response to it at all

[Red Mage]

@Hawkeye: That's the completely and utterly shitty thing about trolls is that there is no way they can "lose" and they always believe they've "won" somehow. In this instance, two of the most notorious trolls who were only kept around out of sake of being an open and free-thinking forum were banned. Big freaking deal, right? Nothing came of it. Sure, they had to close new membership, but that will come to pass. Sure, the quality of the forum has taken a hit, but that too will come to pass. I'm trying to reread that chatlog, especially the parts in red, but I fail to see how XIII or Face have "won" anything besides a permaban. They've only proven that they are sad little men with no lives.

[loveofreason]

Don't you just love a mastermind that has to blow his own trumpet? ;)

[Toad]

fucking bastard pretended to be haruhi and made us think it was Face? That bastard...that dirty dirty bastard. My annoyance of him has now turned into intolerance.

[Felan]

I think I am most bothered by the ease with which two people can be so disruptive.

I am glad for their ban though.

[Red Mage]

That douche: "Hey there I'm someone new. No I'm not I'm Face! Haha! Oh my god you guys just fell for it! I can't fucking believe this shit. You guys are all so dumb! Srsly lol u gais r stoopid! I'm actually the brilliant and talented Mr. XIII!"

The rest of the forum: "Um, okay? How about a nice big permaban?" *goes on with life*

[Ermine]

It's a shame this ever had to happen.

Besides XIII, Haruhi, and Face being an extreme nuisance, we established members need to stop treating new members in such an openly suspicious manner. It's plain rude to suspect people before they do anything. Benefit of the doubt is the best option until something happens. Our suspicions may have merit, but I think such suspicions are best kept in PMs. I've observed that the more discussion and uproar there is about the disruptive members, the more they thrive. If the forum is going to win, we need to cut off their source of victory: our reaction. If we don't openly pay attention to them, they have no audience, no source of victory. Why can't we just keep quiet and report the disruptive member if something goes wrong and PM an admin?

[fullerene]

that's a hugely important thing, I think. When I started badgering citizen x (a bit) in that opening thread, I did it because a lot of people were suspicious. Hearing from other people, it came down to myself, anthile, lor, snowqueen, banana mango, and I think (though I can't remember) one or two other people--all of whom I knew (at the time) by name had expressed suspicion. I then googled all of the common phrases that someone looking for essays, like he said he would, would google, and never once did INTPf turn up within 10 pages. Then when I asked, his phrase concerning INTPf didn't turn up til the 13th page. I then looked at the "simple confirmation you're an INTP" thread sitting over in the lounge, where, it was not just that his second-example was "not-INTP"... but that it was saturated in arrogance. "hahahahah... silly man. I told you we'd be back in the car by exactly [this time]. You and your sub-INTP mind should have lilstened to your intellectual superior."

And all of that was combined with things he said, and the way he said them (which I would still prefer not to say so explicitly, since they're a nice weapon to have), in relation to what I had gathered on his personality in IRC, as well as the forum.



I'm not so much saying that to make excuses, but I realized that nobody else knew any of that (indeed, I couldn't really say it all because it involved other peoples' suspicions, which I didn't want to do without their consent at the time--I relaxed a bit for the sake of this post, though, since he seems to have gone inactive--but I won't forget him).... so it probably looked like I just had minor suspicions and jumped-the-gun on the poor, possibly-unsuspecting new person. Unfortunately, I think I opened pandora's box instead. I'm not sure whether everyone would have accused the next person of being xiii if they hadn't seen me do it there, but I still sorta feel bad about it nonetheless.

That said, I really like ermine's suggestion... if we're unsure of someone, I think we should PM lor about it. That way, people who draw a lot of suspicion will show up on her radar, and she can check up on it or keep a closer eye on them for trollish-personal-attacks or whatever else she does... but if it's only one person's suspicion, we won't chase off newcomers or make unnecessary enemies.

[echoplex]

So Harui (?) or whatever was XIII? omg, I'm sooooo shocked. What sucks is that they made such a valiant attempt to hide it. They didn't remind me of anyone else at all.

Yeah, this is all a shame. We could be getting legitimate new members to positively add to the forum, and instead we get someone just trying to settle a score with profile after profile. What's worse is that if this guy really wanted to contribute in a respectful way, he would be a very beneficial force to the forum. Oh well though.

And yeah, this is an understandable decision. I'm not really sure what it will accomplish though. A "troll" may just wait the period out, especially if it doesn't last long. And we'll be losing potential real new members.

At least this will give the Witch Hunt...I mean Introit forum a rest for a while.

[EloquentBohemian]

I don't think there is anything I could add to what has already been said.
Ermine, that is very well put, concise and excellent advice which I, for one, will follow.

[Kuu]

*facepalm*

Now I'm gonna have to do all the alien threads myself...

*shrugs*

Oh well, you know what they say: If you want something done, best to do it yourself.



PS. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Make that your mantra.

[fullerene]

by the looks of things, though, echo, we lost a few old members in the process.

I'm not sure how much I would expect a troll to "wait it out." I mean, a troll's end goal is to tear-down a message board/forum/whatever until there are no other active members, right? To do that, they insult people as much as they can get away with without being banned, be a general nuisance and annoyance, post lots of things that nobody cares about so that you have to search really hard to find topics you care about, etc. Not only would his general lockdown delay any new troll-entrances, but in the meantime, we'll all get to hear each others' thoughts without all the "noise." This would, I would think, make the people who are here care more about each other as the relationships develop, and therefore less likely to leave in the midst of borderline-rule-breaking posts.

I have no idea if this is what lor was thinking when she closed this place or not, but basically... while it seems like dead-time that a troll could just wait out, it seems to me that it's actually time where we can peacefully rebuild the damage that's been done, and further fortify ourselves against being chased away by indirect attacks all the time.

Ladies and gentlemen: it's time to get to know each other again :p

[echoplex]

PS. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Make that your mantra.
It's a good mantra, but I wonder, how can we always know who's a "troll"? In a time of increased suspicion, we may run the risk of not 'feeding' anyone who isn't already an established member. Plus, a "good" troll is usually able to hide their trollish nature.

EDIT: Good point, cryptonia. I suppose there is no perfect solution. Perhaps this is the best one available. Though I wouldn't assume all trolls' end goal is to tear it down in order to remove active members. I think many would be sad if the members left. Who else would they annoy? I think most just do it for fun/attention/power trip/whatever.

Of course, whether it's their goal or not, it's often the end result.

[fullerene]

ah... right, of course. I was going by that link that noddy put up..... er.... somewhere. It was www.webupon.com/Social-Networks/How-to-be-a-Troll.69719 (http://www.webupon.com/Social-Networks/How-to-be-a-Troll.69719)

[snowqueen]

The Forum has been temporarily closed to new members.

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=3393

Feel free to discuss your views on the matter, or just comment.

Thank you lor. I totally support your decision. I'm sure it was a difficult one to make, but shows real leadership and commitment to the future of this forum.

It's 8.27 in the morning here in the UK and this is the best start to the day I could have woken up to.


'm not sure how much I would expect a troll to "wait it out." I mean, a troll's end goal is to tear-down a message board/forum/whatever until there are no other active members, right?

I agree. I think the advice 'ignore' simply doesn't work with someone as determined as the last 1/2/3/whatever seemed to be.

What happened is that the whole purpose/culture of this forum was being turned into what the troll/s wanted.

my main question is "what to do about troll-like characters in the future?"

I have been thinking about this a lot and I have some suggestions.

1. The main thing that needs to happen is that the purpose of the forum is maintained. That is fairly clear - it is for INTPs and their friends. On the troll thread one of the warnings was not to let people stay who are clearly not interested in the purpose of the board. Face repeatedly said s.he was not interested in INTP or MBTI. The 'personality destruction' thread was similarly right from the start not about INTP. In future anyone who says that should be told that while their opinion is perfectly valid, this forum is not the place to do it. There are plenty of boards for general discussion of MBTI there is no need to do it here. I am quite sure the admins can distinguish between real questions of this kind and trolling ones.

2. The next thing that needs to happen is for the culture of the forum to be restored. Now that is a little trickier but I think this place has been a sanctuary for INTPs - lor asked a while ago why these INTPs are here. Well it did seem that the people here were largely gentle souls (even if they dressed up as smoking beetles and pretended to be violent children). The forum was very welcoming, it was playful in places but it also hosted some remarkable personal discussions. For many people it felt like a sanctuary away from the difficulties we all face in daily life - btw it was one of the primary weapons of the trolls - playing on our insecurities and uncertainties about life - trying to make out we should all be different, better. As I think Cog said once - the Forum was like a nursery for helping INTPs back on their feet and to a point where they could begin to strengthen themselves.

The solution I would propose is that new posters are only allowed to post up to 5 posts a day until they reach 100 posts. The rationale for this is that it is likely to deter a troll who depends on being able to raise their postcount rapidly and likes to argue, very quickly brewing up a storm. This effectively means they have to wait 20 days until they can participate fully during which time they can establish their credibility. It could be less than 100 - 70 would be 2 weeks?

3. The third thing is that we remember that this is not a democracy. The admins control the forum for our benefit and safety and we need to accept their authority. We need to agree that all questions about the running of the board are addressed to the admins via pm. If the admin then wishes to open it to forum discussion it is up to them to open one. One of the worst ways the trolls have been using the forum and using other people on the forum is by arguing and getting people to argue with the admins which reduces their authority. If a troll sees any chink in that authority they will take advantage and divide and rule.

So I propose three rules which are automatically pm'd to new members (along with a welcome message along the line of Ogion's standard one). Please feel free to disagree or edit as you with - I am only trying to come up with some solutions.

1. The purpose of this forum is to host discussions between INTPs and their friends. While not all topics need to be directly related to INTP and MBTI, there is an expectation that members primary interest in being here is to meet other INTPs and their friends.

2. As a new member, you can post up to 5 posts a day until you reach xx posts. This is to allow you time to get the feel of the forum and for us to get to know you.

3. This forum has x admins called ..... The admins serve the forum by keeping the purpose and culture of the forum clear. If they think you are not respecting the purpose and culture of the forum they will let you know.

4. If there is something happening on the forum that you are unhappy about please pm one of the admins with your concern rather than raising it directly on the forum. The membership have agreed that it is not acceptable for members to start debates about the admins' management of the forum. We trust our admins and hope you will too. If there is an issue regarding the running of the forum pm an admin to request a thread being started to address the issue.

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I feel like the guy who leaves a party at 2 am only to find out the next day that strippers showed up at 2:05. Although in this case it seems I should be glad as the "strippers" were male.

In a manner of speaking.

And what the hell was I doing at a party anyway?

[Hawkeye]

Does this mean that Face's account is still banned (permanently)?

I mean I know the method used may not have been the best to notify you of who Haruhi really was but Face was right (as was I). The evidense was right under your noses yet you couldn't see it.

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.


To have Face permabanned for this doesn't seem fair regardless to whether you like him/her or not. It reminds me of the last forum I was on. Rules for one and different set for another.

[preilemus]

face made multiple accounts. it would be unfair NOT to permaban hir

[Anthile]

Does this mean that Face's account is still banned (permanently)?

I mean I know the method used may not have been the best to notify you of who Haruhi really was but Face was right (as was I). The evidense was right under your noses yet you couldn't see it.

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.


To have Face permabanned for this doesn't seem fair regardless to whether you like him/her or not. It reminds me of the last forum I was on. Rules for one and different set for another.


This posting gives me a headache.

[NoID10ts]

This posting gives me a headache.

Me too.

Maybe to new members, who haven't seen the whole picture and witnessed the decline of this place since Face first appeared, it seems unfair.

If you go back and read the original face banning thread, I believe the mods were right in their original assessment and this was after Face's 1,000 post mark, if I'm not mistaken. They were kind hearted and tolerant enough to let him come back and he did this kind of stuff again and again.

Face was a troll. I can't, for the life of me, see how people can't see that. He was a good troll, very subtle and manipulative. Look how much support he's rallied for himself time and time again. This speaks to the divisive nature of his presence here.

I guess the difficulty is that he did make serious contributions, but to what end? Did he care, or was he using a tactic of pushing then pulling back, pushing further then pulling back. He used the down times and serious posts to garner support for himself and shored it up through sweet little PM's and irc chats to make people think they were friends.

That way, when he pushes again, those friends of his cry foul on his behalf to the point of getting him back onto the forum. It's a brilliant tactic, but it's ultimate purpose is to destroy this place. Old members get frustrated and leave. New members get picked off through insults that erupt into angry posts that end up getting them banned. The mods can potentially become divided over what to do and again, some leave or become disgruntled. It's a game, and the game is won by taking down the forum and moving on to the next challenge.

But the sad thing is, I think he and XIII are too fixated on this place to give up and leave us alone. they will probably wait, maybe move somewhere else for the time being, but I suspect they will be back. Too much pride to leave it alone.

[Carnap]

So if I understand correctly, that stupid post about sex in the streets was a joke?

[cheese]

^It wasn't the main point, at least.

[Jennywocky]

While INTPs naturally disregard/distrust authority as a means to accomplish goals, I agree with SnowQueen in the sense of more social investment in LoR and the admins as a mechanism by which to protect and moderate the forum.

I mean, really... I can't imagine LoR abusing her power, and she usually goes in the opposite direction -- undermining authority that is legitimately hers in order to prevent herself from abusing said power. Unfortunately I think that has sometimes contributed to truly abusive members to taking advantage of her flexibility and kindness. Her judgment is pretty sound. If the community could rally around their admins and help them believe more in themselves and their perceptions regarding problem members, that would help weed out issues earlier.

On other forums (using vBulletin), we have the ability to check IP addresses. This is not foolproof obviously, but it's a big indicator in terms of verifying identities -- you can generally narrow down a geographic location for a particular poster, and some IPs can even be banned.

The big issue is simply that the group must somehow protect itself again problem members, because it should be clear now that just a few problem children have the ability to shut down the entire forum. Either authority has to be invested with more power and trust (to clamp down borders or just make decisions to cull out the wolves without lots of bitching from membership), or the members themselves have to be less susceptible to group tensions and ride things out steady.

I think the rules should be consistent too, they just have to be developed in a flexible way so that they cover as much ground as possible. Unfortunately, hard and fast rules will occasionally perhaps weed out some discussion/members who are a mixed bag or who toe the line; that's unfortunately a necessary evil in terms of creating a large safe social atmosphere for people, and members have to simply monitor themselves and determine what things are worth toeing the line for. There needs to be some social sensibilities kept in mind by some members, it's not just a free-for-all; what freedom we get usually gets balanced by the limitations we accept for the sake of the group.

Also, I think it is important to remember that this is just a sub-community, it does not have to be representative of the entire world. It's not like this forum has to be everything to everyone and be open to everyone. Groups are subsets of the whole, pulled together by common interest; and they're allowed to define themselves and not just include members who fit the definition but also allow other people the option to NOT fit and to go elsewhere. If someone doesn't fit the culture this forum has created, they are free to go look for a culture that better suits their particular needs and interests; this group is not obligated to change its rules or be more flexible just to accommodate every Joe, Duncan, Ariel, and Megan that meanders down the electronic highway. THere's no malice involved with this, it's just a matter of finding a place where one fits and not forcing oneself upon environments where one does not fit. INTP tendency to flex and a desire to not be elitist (except sometimes where it sneaks out in intellectual matters) sometimes prevents groups like this from feeling comfortable in having expectations and protecting its own borders out of necessity.

[Hawkeye]

This posting gives me a headache.

Perhaps I am just more patient and tolerant than than others.

Anyway, I'm not going to fight for the unban as it is not my place too. I just don't agree with it.

[snowqueen]

Also, I think it is important to remember that this is just a sub-community, it does not have to be representative of the entire world. It's not like this forum has to be everything to everyone and be open to everyone. Groups are subsets of the whole, pulled together by common interest; and they're allowed to define themselves and not just include members who fit the definition but also allow other people the option to NOT fit and to go elsewhere. If someone doesn't fit the culture this forum has created, they are free to go look for a culture that better suits their particular needs and interests; this group is not obligated to change its rules or be more flexible just to accommodate every Joe, Duncan, Ariel, and Megan that meanders down the electronic highway. THere's no malice involved with this, it's just a matter of finding a place where one fits and not forcing oneself upon environments where one does not fit. INTP tendency to flex and a desire to not be elitist (except sometimes where it sneaks out in intellectual matters) sometimes prevents groups like this from feeling comfortable in having expectations and protecting its own borders out of necessity.

Brilliantly expressed Jenny -thank you. This is really important to understand - if someone comes into my house I expect them to respect my rules - not that I have many - but I won't let people smoke in my house for example. If I go into my local pub I will still have to respect the wishes of the publican/owner and understand that I will be kicked out and banned if I cause disruption to the 'regulars'. There is nothing wrong with setting boundaries. Otherwise we could just change the name of the forum to anythinggoes.com

[Ogion]

Yes, very important points, snowqueena dn Jennywocky. Thanks for pointing them out.

Ogion

[Decaf]

I personally think Face provides a spark to this forum and I enjoyed debating things with him/her.

I'm not trying to expand my own importance, but I am a long time member of the forum and I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March. Maybe they provide a spark, but the culture had absolutely shifted for the worse. Yeah, I like to talk about MBTI, but with them around the only discussions I could get going or respond to were picked at in such a way that I lost all enthusiasm to contribute. Discussions were always about the same things over and over again and it was never interesting, just compelling. Threads used to lead to insight in a lot of cases, or at least a general comradery between ALL participants.

As a side note, I also was approached by Face in PMs with flattering comments I assume were with the hopes of turning me into one of his 'zombies'. Very well written and flattering. I could see how comments like that could quickly generate a kind of friendship between him and the recipient. I'm sorry, but I've been an admin on a couple forums and other mediums and that spark you talk of is the same flame that burns down your village.

If I were an admin on this forum, I probably would have started deleting the threads entirely that consisted of the kind of ruffage we started seeing everywhere.

____

-edit-

Here's my abbreviated guide to how to spot a troll...

If you receive PMs that say:
"You seem to be intelligent and handsome. These are a nice combination. Lucky you."

or

"I love your comments. They fascinate me! I hope you respond with something very interesting for me to consider."

They're probably a troll (yes, those are PMs I received from Face). I wouldn't be surprised if other members have received identical PMs.

I have received some very kind PMs from other members that I appreciate a great deal, but these made me uncomfortable. At first it generates a sense of kinship ("Hey, I wonder who this astute person is"), followed by a desire to keep them around. What made me uncomfortable was not readily apparent to me, but I started feeling like I should do something to return the favor of the supportive compliment. Once I recognized that, it made me feel shitty, the way it always feels when one has been used.

Not that I needed my ego stroked so much, but the summon Decaf thread did its work in reminding me of the good people who were still here and made this place worth coming back to.

Anyway, all that to say, if the forum doesn't defend itself from trolls with a vigor that self-preservation should instill, it is not strong enough to survive (by that I mean teamwork... not by becoming cynical like INTPc)

[snowqueen]

I'm not trying to expand my own importance, but I am a long time member of the forum and I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March.

but I've been an admin on a couple forums and other mediums and that spark you talk of is the same flame that burns down your village.



I hope the forum returns to being a place you'd want to stay in. And your experience is really interesting to read about.

[NoID10ts]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me. :(


:D

[Decaf]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me. :(


:D

I'd rather a troll hate me then see me as a good target for zombification. Makes me feel dirty. Maybe I should start being generally more antagonistic...

[Anthile]

I wonder how many of us got such PMs.

[Ogion]

Lol, i certainly didn't. (Seeing how i was the main enemy :D:D:D)

Ogion

[Decaf]

Lol, i certainly didn't. (Seeing how i was the main enemy :D:D:D)

Ogion

I didn't post that part of the second PM, but that one contained a negative reference towards you. I think he assumed my attempt at changing the tone of the chat thread was somehow not in agreement with you.

As if he could make me turn against the great and powerful Ogion :D

[EloquentBohemian]

All Hail the Great and Powerful Ogion!
May many virgins pass through his tent.

[seriously... you're doing a great job]

[Da Blob]

Well now I'm a little depressed. Since Face has been here, I only had a total of 2 PM's from him and they involved me calling him a dumbfuck. He was fairly polite about it, though.

*Sigh* the trolls don't even like me. :(


:D

But I like you NOID10ts, but then I am just a lurker - not a troll. Somehow i got caught up in the negative 'spirit' that was going on in the forum about the time of Face's 1000th post. I just no longer 'fit in' here (my own fault I will admit) However, it does seem that anytime a group of people start accomplishing something, Chaos in one form or another arrives on the doorstep...

I do not know, perhaps a generic way of providing feedback to posts, one to five stars, If a new person gets nothing but one star ratings, s/he should take the hint and modify their communication style or content.
( Da Blob anticipates a one-star rating on this comment...)

[Ogion]

:)

Ogion

[Auburn]

Discussions were always about the same things over and over again and it was never interesting, just compelling. Threads used to lead to insight in a lot of cases, or at least a general comradery between ALL participants.*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):

[Decaf]

*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):


On the contrary. I went through months of that lurking (and sometimes outright avoiding the forum). Its now our job to fix what someone else broke. It'll be tough, but the whole point is that now we make it better and stronger for the experience. This forum, if treated with the love of its members, will become stronger after having gone through this (as it will when it goes through the trials that await it).

Maybe what we need is a holiday of shouting. For one whole day we all moan about what we all went through and then we lock all these threads and move on. Who's with me?

[NoID10ts]

But I like you NOID10ts, but then I am just a lurker - not a troll. Somehow i got caught up in the negative 'spirit' that was going on in the forum about the time of Face's 1000th post. I just no longer 'fit in' here (my own fault I will admit) However, it does seem that anytime a group of people start accomplishing something, Chaos in one form or another arrives on the doorstep...

I do not know, perhaps a generic way of providing feedback to posts, one to five stars, If a new person gets nothing but one star ratings, s/he should take the hint and modify their communication style or content.
( Da Blob anticipates a one-star rating on this comment...)

I never perceived you as a troll Blob, at all. We may have had our differences, but I know that you are sincere and aren't trying to undermine the forum. In hindsight, I was disrespectful towards you and I regret that. Obviously, spiritual issues tend to be a hot button in my current circumstances. ;)

You have just as much right to be here as anyone else, you haven't violated any rules of the forum that I am aware of, and it's a shame to think that I had a part in making you feel like you had to be a lurker.


*sigh* ....it seems like every time I log on now I see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them. It's rather disheartening really...

That's the point of the trolling. It's designed to divert attention away from the whole point of the forum. The purpose of this forum is to give INTP's a place to congregate, socialize, and discuss the many issues that are of interest to us. The trolling has subverted that and made us do nothing but focus on the trolls and the state of the forum in general.

But now measures are being taken to correct course and go back to normal. I think that's where this place is headed again.

I hope.

[fullerene]

Auburn, we sort of need you here, now. You bring sensitivity and a drive to get to know individual people that's sorely lacking everywhere else, and knowledge of the cognitive functions second only to decaf. You've also creativity and artistic talent that work wonders (collage of the forum members, anyone? And don't act like I didn't see that yin-yang think you drew :D) in a situation like this. I won't say what will force you to come and help, but I know you could still do good things here, and I think that you might be irreplacable in that regard :).

[Ogion]

*sigh*
....recently, I've felt it that way too. I log on now but just see the same things over and over - more issues with the forum, and more threads about them.
It's disheartening...

I'm really sorry I don't have the time/energy to read everything, nor any valuable insight...
I guess it's rather hypocritical of me... ):


And the posts in this thread are really encouraging (for me, as i really doubted my 'position' in this forum, and prolly for a lot of other people) :)

Ogion

[flow]

I'm pleased with the handling of this terrible situation, I'm sure more trolls will eventually follow... Whatever. We will overcome!

[Decaf]

I'm pleased with the handling of this terrible situation, I'm sure more trolls will eventually follow... Whatever. We will overcome!

Fool me once, shame on... you. Fool me... can't get fooled again!

[EloquentBohemian]

Persnally, I think that the tribulations - which the Forum as a whole, the people who consider it a sanctuary/home/respite, and the mods/admins who had to deal with the problems directly and make the tough decisions - proved that this is a place which is important, if not dear, to many people and that the Forum shall grow stronger and more resilient in spite of, and because of, the assaults on its integrity.
What doesn't kill us, we eat for breakfast. ;)

[Ermine]

^ I hope you're right. It would definitely make my 1.5 years here worthwhile to see this forum large and thriving, yet still high quality with intimate discussions.

And I hope my new signature helps remind the members to be less reactive, since I have over 2000 posts floating around.

[Tyria]

I cannot help but I admit I feel some (relief?) at the deserved bans of two *special* users. Goodbye, and good night to you both.

I suggest that we come up with strict anti troll rules to prevent something like this happening again. I find it regrettable that we must close our doors to new users to protect ourselves from trolls, but I do not have a viable alternative to offer. I think the staff did what was needed to be done, and I do not envy the decisions that they must make in extreme cases like this.

I sincerely hope that we can come together as a forum again, and that we will become stronger from these trials. And now, a metaphor:

We are all river rocks. Through trials and tribulations, the rough edges and cracks in our beings are worn away from the force of thw water rushing over us. When the water has finished with us, we are smooth polished stones. We are without blemish, and we are so much stronger and unbreakable than ever before.

Stay cool everyone,
CK

[Anling]

This is a surprise, but a relief too. It seems I have been unpleasantly surprised almost every time I've logged in recently. I swear I'm gone over night and some new hydra-headed drama pops up. And to make it worse I have absolutely no idea what's going on to cause it. (I stopped reading threads from those two members a while ago, so I have little knowledge of what all they've been doing. That seemed to leave little else to read though.)

Anyway, I'm glad for the time to repair the ship. We won't have to scuttle it after all. I'm really hoping for some good thread topics now. I've personally been wanting to start one on evolution as I'm a (graduated) biology student and it's one of my favorite topics. But that seems like it has too much potential for conflict. (I will (hopefully) never respond to one of my father's anti-evolution spiels again.:o) *sigh* One of these days I'll come up with something interesting to talk about.

[Da Blob]

Anyway, I'm glad for the time to repair the ship. We won't have to scuttle it after all. I'm really hoping for some good thread topics now. I've personally been wanting to start one on evolution as I'm a (graduated) biology student and it's one of my favorite topics. But that seems like it has too much potential for conflict. (I will (hopefully) never respond to one of my father's anti-evolution spiels again.:o) *sigh* One of these days I'll come up with something interesting to talk about.

Actually, if framed correctly, it could be a good thread. I think that a lot of the misunderstanding of the topic is due to people talking about different concepts, but using the word, evolution for all these concepts. I , personally, have tried to distinguish evolution the science from Evolution the philosophy/religion... It would be nice to be able to come to a common agreement on the topic(s)...

While I have been lurking I have noticed that if not for Cobherst the Science, Religion and Philosophy section would have gone dry. I could start a few threads...

[Anling]

I'm just very used to having my head bit off and buried in corners of the garden for discussing evolution. So I've been holding off. Maybe I will go start that thread, once I think of a better way that just "Evolution, discuss!" That doesn't seem so very productive.

[Da Blob]

I'm just very used to having my head bit off and buried in corners of the garden for discussing evolution. So I've been holding off. Maybe I will go start that thread, once I think of a better way that just "Evolution, discuss!" That doesn't seem so very productive.

You could start off with definition of the word/concept or several intriguing quotes...
No need to make a target of your Self just trying to begin an edifying discussion...

[Ogion]

Heh, i would like talking Evolution. And i also think that you shouldn't receive the same flak here that you would get on general discussion or even religious forums :p

Ogion

[Da Blob]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution... It seems strange that it is presented as an either/or issue, where one is false and the other is true...

[Anling]

Well, I guess I'll have to do it then. Blast! And I just turned that book back into the library too. Well, I guess I'm almost done with the ones I replaced it with and I can go back and check it out again. I don't have any interesting quotes of my own. I did just print out a great article on the purpose of different pupil shapes. Rambling sorry.

[Felan]

Even believing in God as I do I have a deep fascination and conviction of the truth of the Theory of Evolution.

[snowqueen]

Auburn, we sort of need you here, now. You bring sensitivity and a drive to get to know individual people that's sorely lacking everywhere else, and knowledge of the cognitive functions second only to decaf. You've also creativity and artistic talent that work wonders (collage of the forum members, anyone? And don't act like I didn't see that yin-yang think you drew :D) in a situation like this. I won't say what will force you to come and help, but I know you could still do good things here, and I think that you might be irreplacable in that regard :).

ditto ditto ditto!!!!



I suggest that we come up with strict anti troll rules to prevent something like this happening again.
Stay cool everyone,
CK

I agree - I've made some suggestions - I would invite others to do the same so we can work together to develop a stategy. Decaf seems to have some useful experience to offer.

Even believing in God as I do I have a deep fascination and conviction of the truth of the Theory of Evolution.

I don't really believe in either! So bring it on.

[Felan]

I don't really believe in either! So bring it on.

Oh heathens are sexy!

[The Fury]

I've been gone for the last few days so I'm kinda confused here. I think most of us knew that Haruhi was XIII, so I'm not exactly surprised to see him banned again, but why was face banned.

Edit:

I've done some research and I now understand so I no longer need an explanation.

[Sapphire Harp]

Fury, I think an explanation should be posted as others may have the same question... Personally, I think FacetiousPersona was banned in what I would call a 'moment of clarity', which came when the drama with Haruhi reached its peak...

Permanent banning of Face was considered back in March after a very quick run of very offensive behavior, swamping the forum with trivial posts, being thoroughly disrespectful towards the moderators and administrators, etc...

It was decided that there wasn't enough evidence that Face wasn't acting in fun, being seriously misunderstood, and being provoked it further activity because of that misunderstanding.

Members of the forum were asked to be more open minded and give Face another more accepting chance, and there was a simultaneous expectation that Face would act more appropriately and try to ingratiate himself more to the people of the forum.

Face's behavior did change in that it grew to be less blatantly offensive but more subtly degrading and divisive for the forum. Particularly, Face acted to make the work of the moderators very much more difficult... especially by spreading confusion about the moderator's activities. In the end, I expect at least a fifty item list could be made of reasons Face's behavior was out of line...

If Face was merely trying to play a game -with- the forum, rather than -against- the forum - it was a game that never stopped hurting people. There are plenty of testaments to that in the forum...

About this time, the moderators decided that the problem was, indeed, not improving as expected and it was time to finally take care of it before things had a chance to really slip out of control.

(My apologies for any misassumptions about your actions, LoR, Anthile, Ogion, Jesin, and Weliddryn.)

[Jennywocky]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution...

I see reflective patterns of both, in nature and in human behavior.
Beyond that, I can't really say what is true.

There are so many things that humans force into binary pairs, that really do not have to be, though.

[Ermine]

Well, perhaps because i am an INTPian, I seem to be one of the few individuals who believe in both God and the Science of evolution... It seems strange that it is presented as an either/or issue, where one is false and the other is true...
You're not the only one.

*resists derailing*

[Decaf]

I think my most relevant experience is being a server admin for a gaming clan called the Old Farts. The clan is for 30 year olds and older and has about 250+ members playing an assortment of games regulated through their main site. I was introduced to them about 3-4 years ago playing Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, and I've been a referee for that game for about 2 years.

Being a first person shooter we have no shortage of players with bad attitudes joining the server (ours is one of the few popular servers left). People with hacks, teamstackers and ignorant/knowing rule violators. The referee policy is very specific and it had to evolve out of a lot of problems.

Rule #1: For any serious action a referee must collect some evidence or have witnesses
Rule #2: All banned players have the right to question the action in the forum
Rule #3: If the Ref is found to be in the wrong, a different ref must make the apology
Rule #4: If you can't decide who is right, trust the ref

I believe the first and last rule are the most important of the set. To make that happen you first need to create a folder that only moderators and administrators can see. I only assume it doesn't exist because I can't see it :p Any actionable material should be moved or copied there and kept as evidence to be discussed.

A second folder should be opened for appeals (postable by accounts in ban status 1, but not ban status 2). By having an appeal folder you allow for more frequent use of the ban option because its not as severe as complete lack of access. It also allows for questionable bans to become more clear cut (if they go onto the appeal folder and start cursing, insulting, etc...), which helps the conscience and improves your confidence.

Never require the moderator who made the mistake to directly apologize to the injured party. Yes, they should admit their guilt in the privacy of the moderator folder, but no further. Do not humiliate the people on the front lines if you want them to be able to do their job. It also helps keep the tempers down of those involved.

Finally, the old stand-by. Mods are chosen because they are trustworthy, so trust them. If you get a bunch of abuse claims, or another moderator points out their improper actions, then deal with it, but never trust the word of someone with an axe to grind over the person in authority. Even if you like the injured party more than the moderator.

_____

The rules that get someone in trouble are obviously going to be a little different because we are much more forgiving of cursing than the old farts are (their kids play on that server, so they're a little protective). Still, these are some of the rules we have that are transferable to a forum atmosphere.

Things that get your post deleted:
Disrespecting another player (this covers a lot of ground obviously)
Arguing with a moderator
Spam

Things that get you banned:
Repeat offenses (in a short time frame, where ignorance is not an excuse)
High Level Disrespect (i.e. the infamous misogynistic post)

Things that get you demoted from moderator status:
Lack of a diplomacy first attitude
Obvious favoritism
Break the rules intentionally

____

I don't know if any of that helps, but if you can draw some inspiration from it, wonderful.

[Da Blob]

There has been some discussion as how the community can "Grow" out of the current crisis situation. One possibility for expansion is a facebook group for intpforum members. If being anonymous is not that important to members it might work ... It just seems that trolls and trouble makers have to function behind the false persona of a avatar, a rather cowardly tactic... but who knows I am just throwing the idea out for discussion...

[fullerene]

I feel like any trolls could easily make a facebook thing to troll with, too. I think it would have made sense if people were limited more strictly to one facebook per person (like when it used to be just for college students, and you needed a college email to make an account, and colleges would only give you one). Since it's just as easy to make one of those as to make an account here, though, what would be the difference between having a little network there and just adding information to our profiles here?

Also: I, at least, don't have a facebook, so I wouldn't be there. How easy is it for a troll to just say "I don't have one, sorry," and that be the end of it? False persona allowed to run rampant again.

[Hawkeye]

I feel like any trolls could easily make a facebook thing to troll with, too. I think it would have made sense if people were limited more strictly to one facebook per person (like when it used to be just for college students, and you needed a college email to make an account, and colleges would only give you one). Since it's just as easy to make one of those as to make an account here, though, what would be the difference between having a little network there and just adding information to our profiles here?

Also: I, at least, don't have a facebook, so I wouldn't be there. How easy is it for a troll to just say "I don't have one, sorry," and that be the end of it? False persona allowed to run rampant again.

Someone created an imaginary female character on Facebook and started a relationship with a guy. They suggested a meeting place together and he drove about 400 miles to a field in the middle of nowhere. He received a phone call shortly after he arrived. It was two blokes informing him that she never existed and that they have all the personal 'sexual' photo's he thought he sent to her.

These people exist everywhere.


Don't trust anyone you speak to on the Internet. There is no guarantee they'll be genuine. Never reveal anything unless you are absolutely sure you won't be affected by the abuse of this knowledge.

For example "I'm a Virgin". I don't care what anyone thinks about this statement and I will happily say it to anyone.


Do this and you may even find troll-like characters entertaining.

[snowqueen]

I'm sure it's not just me - but I have certainly noticed a whole different (positive) feel to this forum since the temporary closure. I hope that convinces the doubters that the decision, though difficult, was the correct one.

[dents]

I said this in the witch hunt thread and I'll say it again here: I'd volunteer to look at and implement technical solutions to the troll problem. There are no guarantees (that's impossible), but it should make their lives much harder, without affecting regular members. Come on admins, lemme at em!

[Cobra]

I'm not embarassed to say that Face, Cow, etc... were the reason I left again when I tried to come back in March.

I, too, was on leave. I needed a break from the bad vibes I was getting back in April.

I can't say it was directly related to Face, but something about the focus of so many being on someone with such little respect for what this place is makes my stomach curdle.

Many of our Mods displayed a horrible contempt for her original sin. They also came off as... rational. By the end of her short ban, Face was back on the block with more respect being winked her way than she could shake a stick at. Most of which was coming from the Mods. This may sound like a criticism (at one point in time, it may have manifested itself as such, silently), but in fact, it's our Moderators' open minds that we have to thank for a number of our awesome liberties on this site. This "softness" was something that just came with the territory of allowing equal freedoms (something I support) to this extremely divisive jerk, Face.

The first banning was amidst my first week as a member. I couldn't help but wonder what was said; what was uttered that made her such a fucking shooting star. When I had a run in with her, I realized instantly I was dealing with someone I didn't like. I've treated her as though she's been on my Ignore list for as long as this.

What has been ignored (correct me, if I'm wrong), though, is the fact that this person is, simply put, just some person. Why does this person need intpforum so hard that they deserve our sanctuary squander after squander? What are we providing to this person that this person cannot go out and find it somewhere else? The bull shit is climbing up our necks and into our noses, and yet we sit around and go, "You know what? Face DID have something neat to say every once in a while." This isn't someone's freedom of speech being violated. This is simple policing. Stop shitting in our living room. We LIVE here.

This isn't a puppy we're talking about here. This isn't a dog with no home, no food, no oxygen. This is just another obnoxious case of "Can't get rid of the dog without getting rid of the kids, too." Are we worried about exodus??? What's going on out there?

[snowqueen]

I hear what you say, Chris and agree for the most part. But like anything we get the Mods we deserve. And I think you cannot underestimate the pressure that was being put on them by the troll/s and the people they had duped into supporting them. The Mods respond as fairly as possible and so I think that the wishes of the INTP-interested members were being outweighed - but maybe too the members were too tolerant. I personally think our Mods are fantastic - partly because of their reluctance to be authoritarian. If we want them to act decisively than it really is our duty to support them to the hilt. I think that in the past week they have earned that respect from the majority of INTP-interested members, if not all.

And I agree with your last sentiment - it's not like this is the only place in the world. And instead of an exodus we seem to have had re-emergence and de-lurking.

[The Fury]

I am in complete agreement with snowqueen here. I've found the moderators and administrators here far surpass any other forum. Then again this is the only forum I'm ever on so that's kind of a double-edged compliment

So when is this forum going to be officially re-opened.

[Agent Intellect]

closing down the forum to new recruits wasn't the "win" for the trolls, but the ensuing paranoia is. witch hunt indeed. how many more people will be banned because a few people think they're an asshole? how easy is it going to be to get banned now? a troll to you may not be a troll to me. isn't it decafs signature that says “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”? are we giving up freedom for a "safer" environment?

[Ogion]

Hm. I think one difference, one aspect, we have to think about is, that this is a privately owned forum. A private place that has in principle an open door for people to come in and talk.
This means, that it is not the only place for pople to express themselves. this is more like some clubhouse or something, rather than a public market place.
Someone (Jennywocky mentioned something like this too) said it, this is like a living room rather than 'the street'. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in their living rooms. And you don't get "violated/restricted in your free speech" when you can't insult people in their living rooms, right? You can still go to other peoples living rooms and complain to them how the other person is an asshole.
You restrict your free speech way more by not going to every place and hsout your opinion than by being restricted to do so in one tiny corner of the places where you can speak...

Ogion

[fullerene]

closing down the forum to new recruits wasn't the "win" for the trolls, but the ensuing paranoia is. witch hunt indeed. how many more people will be banned because a few people think they're an asshole? how easy is it going to be to get banned now? a troll to you may not be a troll to me. isn't it decafs signature that says “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”? are we giving up freedom for a "safer" environment?

That's almost a guarantee. It seems like a sure-law of nature, though, that when a pendulum starts too far in one direction, it overcorrects itself. Of course, you remember how hard it was to get banned here, for such a long time.... I very much expect the banning-frequency to be too high for a little while. Sacrificing freedom for safety, banning not-quite-trolls because the administration overreacts seems like an obvious, unavoidable outcome right now, for a bit... but it's more a question of "do those in charge keep that power to use at whim, or will they make every attempt to settle the banning into 'just right' as best as they can.

[Cobra]

Hm. I think one difference, one aspect, we have to think about is, that this is a privately owned forum. A private place that has in principle an open door for people to come in and talk.
This means, that it is not the only place for pople to express themselves. this is more like some clubhouse or something, rather than a public market place.
Someone (Jennywocky mentioned something like this too) said it, this is like a living room rather than 'the street'. I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't tolerate certain behaviour in their living rooms. And you don't get "violated/restricted in your free speech" when you can't insult people in their living rooms, right? You can still go to other peoples living rooms and complain to them how the other person is an asshole.
You restrict your free speech way more by not going to every place and hsout your opinion than by being restricted to do so in one tiny corner of the places where you can speak...

Ogion

Thank you, Ogi. Well elaborated upon, imb.

What I was trying to say, by using a living room as a metaphor, was that this forum is something that needs to be given the respect it deserves. By simply ushering out people who are quite obviously here for no particular reason than to not only direspect it, but also undermine the respect its been/is being given by its established curators and incoming social wealth, we're effectively making this a safer place. This, like the paranoia and tension that the disruptors caused, will pass. By this, I mean the closed doors. We are not isolationists. We just need a moment to potentially allow these dickheads to find a new vaginahead to inseminate. It will also allow us the time we need for reflection so that new members don't get that evil eye they were getting upon their arrivals.

[Agent Intellect]

the problem is, where does one draw the line? what criteria is there for one to be a troll? how can we determine someones intent or motives for posting? how do we know someone is being malicious or if they're just a jerk? can we ban people just for being assholes in general? what constitutes someone being an asshole? who's standard do we go by?

i've always thought that self regulation was the best way: if you don't like someone, add them to ignore (or just simply not respond to them). its the same idea with movies or television, if you find it offensive, then don't watch watch it. in this way, the line, the criteria, the standard, is set by each individual. if you feel someone is a troll, don't "watch". the problem isn't with the trolls themselves so much as the people feeding the trolls. our supply of feeding them will continue the demand.

[fullerene]

^^is a good point. It's the second half of that that's the problem. We've sort of seen what happens when trolls or troll-ish people come by, and people don't ignore them. Some feed them... but some just get quiet, shrink away, and leave. I'm not even sure, but isn't this what you did, yourself? Maybe I'm wrong, but is the reason you got bored with the forum during that time because you weren't interested in anything on it anymore? If so, then you don't really self-regulate any better than anyone else does.

It seems, at least, more efficient to get rid of them altogether.....even if it's just being pragmatic.

[Agent Intellect]

my absence i think is more of my own psychological problem. it wasn't just the forum that i closed myself off from.

but, the problem with "just getting rid of all of them" is, once again, how do we know who is a troll and who isn't? if one ore more people claim that someone is a troll, or that someones presence makes this a hostile environment, how can we prove otherwise?

[fullerene]

I think "is this ahostile environment?" is just as subjective as "is he a troll?" It seems sort of senseless to say the environment's hostility could ever be proven in one way or another. It's an extremely important value-call on the mods' part, imo, to judge whether more benefit is gained from the person/people who find the environment hostile, or the person/people making the environment hostile for those who find it so.

Perhaps we should just mod a trustworthy INFP, or someone well suited to making judgment calls :). Needless to say, trust for whoever's in charge of such a decision is sort of critical.

[Sapphire Harp]

Are you hoping for an answer better than it being a judgement call by the staff? I don't think we're going to find a more reliable answer...

They have, or maybe will have a define set of criteria to judge activities against... but everything is qualitative. A simple rule like 'no more than five derailing posts a week' or something that just isn't flexible enough to handle the constantly unique situations which arise.

With Face's first banning, there was an appeal process which was granted... and now rescinded. By precedent, that option is a part of this situation, too. Which is not to mean the attacking and insulting of the moderators in the chat rooms, which seems to have followed most of the bannings thus far...

[Agent Intellect]

i suppose when it comes down to it, the idea that this is a private forum is the only way. simply by posting on this forum, we are agreeing to adhere to the law of those in charge. posting here isn't a right, but a privilege, and the people who run the forum have every right to remove that privilege.

[fullerene]

^^a very good post/point. All of the trolling thusfar, I think, has been done by people who insisted it was a right..... or at least taken it as an axiom, or at the core of all their arguments

actually, I'd argue against the idea of using precedent at all. That seems like such a fundamentally SJ way to do things: "we did it this way once. Now it's unchangeable."

I like the idea of appealing and mods taking input and stuff like that, for sure... but I strongly urge against using "precedent" as the reason for it. That just makes using precedent to set a bad precedent for later :p

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, sure - I'm just saying we can draw on the precedent.. It's a nice format. Perhaps we can outline it like this...

-Lines are crossed, banning is given.
-The person wants to appeal...
-Two or three days are given for things to calm down
-The banned person is given access to Siberia to argue the appeal...
-And that goes on until a final decision is made?

[Cobra]

I'm the President of Precedents!

No, but seriously, Saph, the voice of reason is so incredibly refreshing.

It stands to reason - has anyone that has been banned thus far shown little or no behavior that warranted their exile? Dare ya.

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...

Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)

[EloquentBohemian]

simply by posting on this forum, we are agreeing to adhere to the law of those in charge. posting here isn't a right, but a privilege, and the people who run the forum have every right to remove that privilege.
This is the most important point of the discussion. I consider it a privilege to be a part of this community.

[Jennywocky]

We've sort of seen what happens when trolls or troll-ish people come by, and people don't ignore them. Some feed them... but some just get quiet, shrink away, and leave.

Neither solution is great, one is an aggressive move which unfortunately feeds the troll's motivational desire (attention/disruption), the other abdicates the forum to anyone who wants to walk in and take it. (Not much different than coming home and finding someone in your house, so you just leave and go elsewhere.)

If some long-term posters are getting overly aggressive and other long-term posters are vanishing, that's a pretty clear sign that the troll is being disruptive and needs removed from the community... basically the whole system is destabilizing at that point.


Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...
Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)

One problem is that mod staff does need to give just enough information to allay people's fears that they are not abusing power; however, providing full information can create problems of its own (maybe some of the information is really embarrassing to the people in question, or just has to disclosure things that should remain private for the sake any troll's victims, etc.) and also create an atmosphere where mod decisions are constantly being nitpicked by someone in membership (because someone's always going to have an alternate opinion), making it hard to just carry out disciplinary action. There's also the sense that, at some point, we need to be able to trust the people in charge; this isn't a democracy or a Republic, it's a forum, and there is an established authority in charge; so the point is to have trustworthy people in power so that the membership can be free to just contribute to the sense of community and trust their representatives are doing their jobs to keep the forums safe and strong.

I guess I am basing part of my thoughts on this on my parenting experiences. Forums are a bit different since we are all supposed to be adults, but there's still a mentor/parental/disciplinary role that mod staff is serving.

[Cobra]

Well, honestly Cobra - the banning of ChristopherL seemed a little premature to me. Inevitable, most like, but surprisingly early...Then again, the reason for banning stated in the bans thread rarely documents the scope of the reasons behind the decision. (Maybe that needs to be clarified more each time?)

Well let's look at the bill -

1. Posting almost wholly on sexually obsessed topics.

This is the smallest of his offenses, so I wanted to get it out of the way early. Nothing wrong with talking about sex. Nothing. But when you can't find anything else to talk about except for women, sex, "fucking," chauvanism, and the like, you're thinning the ice on which you tread. This is an intelligent place for mature topics. Not topics with an MA parental rating. As much as I hate to play censor, we have a diversity in age here you don't see everywhere. When you're naming threads things like "The importance of fucking," you need to be addressed... which leads me to his next offense.

2. Ignoring those who present you with a difference in ideas.

Again, a rather small offense. Larger than the first, but smaller than most. Nothing wrong with ignoring things that burn your ears (or eyes, w/e). But the context is important. People who presented a counter-argument were pressured to impress this person as if he was some sort of monarch atop his throne. Those who refused to either agree with him or present an idea that wasn't in the spirit of debate, he placed on Ignore, quite vocally so. Again, I'll have to say that this place is a forum for intelligent, mature topics. If you can't be either of those things with your threads, you don't have business posting them. Can't being the operative word. He described himself as having "rarely ever been wrong." Wha? The Ignore function is for when you can't reconcile your differences with a poster or you find them offensive and would rather just not read their posts. Not as an electronic form of "the bird." Which leads to the third... (see what I did there? *chuckle*)

3. Name-calling.

Those he placed on Ignore, he didn't actually Ignore, did he? He liked to place people on Ignore so he could call them outright names like "idiots," and "unintelligent," etc. That sort of thing isn't necessary. My response to his post was rather malicious because I had been lurking on his threads long enough to know I didn't like his MO. My "Mr. Wizard" post got me Ignored on the first go, but no one's heart was broken. I'm just saying, if you're gonna Ignore everyone who debates with you, at least don't flagrantly defame as if you're the Moderator banning those who oppose you from your own little mini-forum. If you think that many people deserve your ignorance, you need to leave. It's like the saying, "If you look around the poker table and can't find the sucker, you're it." It's not the forum that's broken. It's ChristopherL.

4. Disrespect.

Referring to people as "non-existent" when you turn off your computer? Really? That's how you feel about my favorite online community filled with wonderful people? Okay, asshole. Bye.

5. Abuse.

This would be "use" (and be tolerable) if all or most of the above had not come into play. He openly admits that he's running some kind of "experiment" on us all. The fact that "the experiment" had mostly to do with our female body, sex, and fucking the female bodies bothers me (and obviously lor, and anyone else involved in the ban). Referring to our masses as "guinea pigs" for his "tests." WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TESTING, DUDE? How utterly obnoxious. He was annoying for just "general poking." Most of us are friends around here, or at least, I consider many of you friends or "friendlies." "Running sexperiments" on all you "guinea pigs" while Ignoring all you "idiots..." it just started to add up.

He can do all this somewhere else. Just like Face.

EDIT: 6. Insulting science.

Self-explanitory. Get out.

[Inappropriate Behavior]

In other words Cobra, he was an ass. I agree. His own "standards" made me wonder why the hell he was here seeing as how he couldn't be bothered with peons like us.

[fullerene]

^^that's funny, because I actually would have attributed completely differeent offenses to him :D. The vocal ignoring I didn't mind so much, because if he never told you you were being ignored, you'd never know. I guess I thought of it as a sort-of-asshole way to let you know not to waste your time.... though it would have been politer to do through PM. In addition to your other offenses-list, though, I would add...

1. He actively never intended to "give anything back." He wasn't hiding those motives, but openly stated it. He ignored people who didn't leave comments that he benefited from, but in turn left us no beneficial comments of his own.

2. The lofty, throne-like position was more apparent than I thought you made it. In addition to your complaints, take a look at the "how does a woman show interest" thread. After 2 and a half hours of no answers, he bumped his own thread. The same thing happened with "the battle of the sexes" too. I could have sworn it happened a third time, but either the thread has been edited (the first 3 posts or so), or else my memory is faulty. Contrast this with respectful Weliddryn, who's "finding truth and depth" thread drew no serious response for over 2 days (the one sarcastic one, by chrisL himself, would have drawn insults back if it were from someone else directed towards his own thread), with no attempts to bump. If no one wants to answer each of your 4 repetitive threads, then back off.

3. "The importance of fucking" thread--closed by Anthile at 12:19 (my time). Reason? Duplicate thread--link given, so it was easy to find. "The importance of making love - really really hard" thread--opened at 12:21 (again, my time). Here's a tip for not-getting-banned: if the mods close your thread for being a duplicate, don't make another duplicate.

[snowqueen]

^^ fantastically analysed Cobra.

And actually those elements are, in different guises, part of the troll theme that has been emerging over the past 3 months.

The themes that are emerging from everyone's comments are that

1. we are a community
2. people who come here should either be interested in learning from the community (primarily about INTP) and/or interested in joining it.
3. being part of the this community is a privilege not a right

I teach group work and group dynamics and one of the things I teach about is roles - everyone adopts roles in groups. Some people tend to adopt roles to do with tasks: getting things done - and some adopt roles to do with process: how we get on with each other and the mood of the place. I have lists of these roles if anyone is interested. The important thing though is that their contribution is towards the group benefit - either as bringing value to tasks or process. Even people who are upset or asking for help or other gain from members is adopting are group role because it brings people together in a process to achieve a task.

There is another category though - people who are in a group but adopt an individual role. That is - their activity in a group is purely for individual motives and they have no emotional or practical investment in the group. I think if you look at XIII and ChristopherL they definitely fit this category. Face - it's less obvious but Face liked to use the forum as a playground and wasn't worried about the chaos caused as a result so on balance wasn't focused primarily on being a group member.

I think we are less clear about this stuff as INTPs because we are not naturally group-oriented types - most of us don't function well in groups or understand group dynamics well. Trolls could do PhDs in group dynamics! But actually it is the fact that this forum may well be one of the few groups we would choose to belong to as a member that makes it so important that we protect it for ourselves and future members like us.

[Sapphire Harp]

Well, sure... similarly off putting behavior to Face, but none of the aggression... I really didn't find myself taking any note of ChristopherL after the first time I saw him argue in a thread. He didn't seem interesting, he mostly posted in his own threads, and all those threads had off-putting titles. As far as a problem, he was rather contained - particularly in comparison to what the forum's just experienced.

I wasn't going to argue for him, really... the feeling I got was his departure from the forum (whether voluntary or banned) was the final destination for this...

On the other hand, if we call him troll - in this case he was clearly being fed... I hardly ever found occasion to read his worse threads, let alone post in them...

Ah... I don't know. I get the feeling if ChristopherL was extensively ignored and given warnings on his behavior, he probably would have left of his own accord fairly quickly. That's just my sense of things. Maybe it is time for a thorough cleaning, but this banning struck me as more preventative than earned.

An accurately assessed banning, I would think... but does it have the support and consensus that the other two bannings did? It doesn't really matter - but it seems appropriate to give warnings and suffer a bit more degradation than I seen (while not viewing his threads...) I guess everyone arguing with him was much further at odds with him than I. And perhaps a whole series of warnings were given. Very hard to say with what I know, having not payed him any mind...

Again, I think a little more elaboration is in order at the time of banning... At least among those offenses which are recorded in posts on the forum. They can be researched out, anyway...

* * * * *


Snowqueen, sounds like you have a new thread in order.

Also, I'm crashing now, so expect a long delay in my participation here, now...

[fullerene]

I thought the same thing about the warnings, at first, but did he seem like the type of person who would have cared about warnings? I mean... it's not like he listened to anything else anyone said.

That said, I'm pretty confident that he was not a troll. I read every one of his posts, because I thought he was, but I'm convinced that he was not. He was consistent across the board (even if it was consistent hypocrisy in places), and he was anything but subtle in attacks. The people he did insult were ignored after 2-3 insulting-posts, and he never spoke to them again. I think you're right, sapphire, that he probably would have left on his own accord if people stopped caring about him. That did speed up the process, though.

[Auburn]

Indeed cryptonia,
I'm reminded of the parable of the wheat and the terriers. There is a time to let both grow together for the sake of uncertainty, but there comes a time when the distinction is made, and as soon as it can be made, there truly is no point in waiting any longer, or letting it ripen or progressing any further.

Shall we wait until chaos emerges every time before it is enough for us to say nay? Or can we trust that the guiding hands of this forum saw it fit to take this action - though premature as it may look in our limited eyesight - to shield this place of what would have otherwise been another inevitable disaster.

I for one trust that this decision was made in sound judgment, and in foresight, to prevent what would have otherwise naturally resulted in more discord.

[snowqueen]

I know a couple of complaints have been made about ChristopherL's verbally abusive posts at individuals. One must presume that he was warned about this and ignored it.

Folks - we either have to trust our Mods or not.

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Folks - we either have to trust our Mods or not.

I've been here long enough to trust them. I know those who joined around the same time the troubles started may not have had the time to develop that trust as I have. I also know that some may have a more anarchial point of view and prefer letting things go. It obviously wasn't easy to make these decisions but they've been made.

It isn't freedom of speech that's been taken away, merely freedom to be nothing more than a prick.

[EloquentBohemian]

Folks - we either have to trust our Mods or not.
I trust them completely. No one is infallible, so they will make mistakes occasionally, but as a whole, I trust the Mods, the Admins, and especially LoR. I think they do whatever they can in the best interests of the Forum.

[Agent Intellect]

i think the mods should be constantly questioned on their decisions. its the only thing we have to hold them accountable, since this isn't a democracy.

[Cobra]

It isn't freedom of speech that's been taken away, merely freedom to be nothing more than a prick.

weer all in ur threads, sharin eachuthrs ideaz

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/jakereckless/Snake4.jpg

[Jennywocky]

The themes that are emerging from everyone's comments are that

1. we are a community
2. people who come here should either be interested in learning from the community (primarily about INTP) and/or interested in joining it.
3. being part of the this community is a privilege not a right

Nice assess, snowqueen. And yes, the people that seem to not fit are the people who do not seem to sense the community spirit (or just disregard it) and thus disrespect it.

There is another category though - people who are in a group but adopt an individual role. That is - their activity in a group is purely for individual motives and they have no emotional or practical investment in the group. I think if you look at XIII and ChristopherL they definitely fit this category. Face - it's less obvious but Face liked to use the forum as a playground and wasn't worried about the chaos caused as a result so on balance wasn't focused primarily on being a group member. Very perceptive. Yes, they were here for themselves, ChrisL was very clear on that point, and considered others to be fodder for his own showboating and experiments.

But actually it is the fact that this forum may well be one of the few groups we would choose to belong to as a member that makes it so important that we protect it for ourselves and future members like us.Thank you for your post, that was a nice assess.

[tom]

I trust the mods.

I think ChrisL had the wrong end of the stick when it came to the forum. Its not a resource, its a meeting place, and its one of my favourite places to come and eavesdrop;)

[Wisp]

I trust the mods, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss their decisions. I don't doubt that they come through and read these threads, so any ideas we have here, will trickle back to the higher levels, without anything being done. We should state views and opinions on administerial actions, but at the same time, those actions should still have the full support of the forum, agreed to or not.

[Kuu]

[I had posted this on the trolls thread but then realized this thread was more appropriate]

I have been thinking about this a bit, and had an idea the other day. Considering the relative calmness that has resulted from the closure of new memberships... perhaps this could be a periodical thing? Some communities, like torrent trackers, have closed memberships, and only once in a while can new members join. Maybe, say, 2 days of open registration, between 2 week periods of being closed?

That way, people that just stumble into the forum are forced to lurk a little and get to know the general feel of the place before joining. Also, there won't be a nearly daily barrage of new members, which can be quite overwhelming... instead, we get 2 weeks to start getting to know the new ones before others arrive. Slow the pace of growth for better quality.

The screening of trolls and duplicate accounts can be also handled easier that way... maybe

I don't know how well it could work, but the idea is out there now, do with it as you desire.

[snowqueen]

I like that idea Tekton - and it might make the mods job a lot easier - only 2 days per fortnight to have to check newcomers.

[fullerene]

I dunno about those proportions (two days is not much, and two weeks is a long time--the forum hasn't even been closed for one yet!), but this thought had struck me, too. I had thought of it as more of an easy fix when things got too hectic, though. Leave registration open for a while, but then whenever post-quality seemed to be degenerating, or whenever fights started breaking out, close it off for a few weeks to let people settle down. I bet if it were closed too often, we'd run out of things to say and eventually get bored of each other... so I don't really know what to think about the idea.

[Cobra]

I like that idea Tekton - and it might make the mods job a lot easier - only 2 days per fortnight to have to check newcomers.

You said fortnight. I love you.

I agree with cryp. It's a maybe, but it's far from a "bad" idea.

Perhaps screening? Is that possible? How about membership approval? It could obviously employ the same kind of "trust" and "honor system" that we equip our Mods with currently, just aimed at a more focused situation. Think if every person who is screened or given a probationary period is subject to some character scrutiny by the Mods? A judgment call... Hmm... Is that creepy? Or is that a good idea? Too early. Need coffee.

[loveofreason]

I'm grateful for everyone's comments in here, and for the ideas being put forward.

The forum will remained closed to new members for a while longer... we're still sorting stuff out as it seems the most opportune time to make long awaited changes... such as updating soft-ware.

The issue with perhaps being more harsh now on banning in compensation for our long-running tolerance is an interesting one, and I would emphasise the point that the Forum is under unusual conditions.

Just like a convalescent... what may be of no consequence when healthy could be extremely damaging while one is recovering.

So the focus now over any consideration for banning is whether or not any account in question is harmful for the forum as a whole. We do not need more rules or more rigid ways of applying them. I argue we need the opposite... we need to look at the interconnected dynamics between user accounts and weigh (yes, subjectively weigh) whether a suspect account is enough of a detriment to others to warrant it's removal.

The narrow prescription of broken rules hardly helps us decide, as one can stay within the rules yet still cause damage, while it is also possible to technically transgress yet cause no real harm...

so discretion and flexibility become more important to recovery than minute attention to rigid boundaries.


And yes... posting here is a privilege. This is a place kept open by the efforts of a few and the goodwill of a benefactor. It 'belongs' to the community of posters and just like any human group... that community creates a culture of shared values. Some people will not belong here. It is not a crime to discriminate. Discrimination is the power by which all things attain individual identities. It is the power to recognise differences and preferences. Fortunately for most, two of our strongest values have been tolerance and openness to ideas.

This place is for the sake of ideas and sharing them... tolerance does not fail because of the ideas that any one poster brings... it fails because of a failure of the poster in question to offer his or her ideas in a way that does justice to the idea and those receiving it.

So, if you wish to take part, please continue to bear with us while we explore the mysteries of Fe.

[Cobra]

So, if you wish to take part, please continue to bear with us while we explore the mysteries of Fe.

That should be our slogan here.

[snowqueen]

You said fortnight. I love you.




Blimey I wish all men were that easy to please! :rolleyes:

[Ulysses]

I have another idea. :D

Guests and newly registered members should not be given full access to the entire forum until they have accumulated a specific number of posts. This won't completely solve the trolling situation, but it might help.

Make it so!

http://rodtsentrum.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/jean-luc-picard.gif

[Ogion]

As said above, post count is really not a good measurement. Some people post like 30 or mroe posts per day. That is nothing you can use to check wether it's a spammer/troll or not.

Ogion

[Ermine]

And most of the time, the spammers/trolls are the ones that post more in a day than most.

[fullerene]

^^Face started with 40 posts on his first day, if anyone remembers, and passed 1000 in 25 days.

That should be our slogan here.

I still like "Ti knights who say Ne"...... but maybe that's just me :D. I wish I had any art/computer design skills... i would've totally made a banner for it.

[loveofreason]

Yep... "Ti knights who say Ne" will be our catchcry...

we just have to upgrade and get that banner happening...

[Ulysses]

I can get you guys a banner if you provide me with two shrubberies.

[Cobra]

I can get you guys a banner if you provide me with two shrubberies.

Is that a bible reference? I'm so out of touch.

[Red Mage]

Didn't Judas betray Jesus for two shrubberies?

[Fedayeen]

Is that a bible reference? I'm so out of touch.

I think it is monty python, but that might be originally from somewhere else

[Cobra]

Okay, quick topic change, and then I'm done messing things up:

Went to a Catholic wedding yesterday. Thursday, at the rehearsal (my wife was taking pictures for them so they could save money on the photography bill and still get pics for the rehearsal, too), I notice in the large mass room to my right back corner as I walk in one of these "stages" in Jesus' life. There were all these painting style hand carved wood depictions that were numbered (I've been told what the name for these stages are, but it escapes me).

The one to my back right was captioned "Jesus with the women" standing in almost a "mingling" fashion talking to 2 women. Hilolious.

Then two doors down, there was another that said "Jesus is stripped" and there are two figures in the carving I presume were probably Roman males, but since it was all hand carved, they looked very similar to the two women from the one before.

I wanted so badly to see one that said "Jesus is hung." Also one that says "Jesus hanging with the studs" would have really made everything better on wedding day when we had to go through all that up down up down up down shit. And boy are my jokes tired.

Okay, carry on.

[Ermine]

Didn't Judas betray Jesus for two shrubberies?

No, 30 pieces of silver.

[EloquentBohemian]

...of which he bought to shrubberies with.


...and some petunias.



...and a small picket fence to go 'round them to keep the bunnies out.

;)

[echoplex]

Here's an idea, if it hasn't been mentioned already...

I've seen some forums that make you wait 7 days upon registering before you can post. I think that might be a good idea for this forum. It would force new members to lurk a little and get a feel of the forum before posting, and it may discourage banned people from making accounts since they'd have to wait a week to start bugging us. :)

It's a bit similar to the idea someone posted that posts per day could be restricted until a certain amount of posts. Perhaps these two ideas could be combined to...
- No posting for the first 7 days
- No more than 5 posts a day for the next....maybe 2 weeks?

To be fair, this may also discourage people from joining altogether, so this is not a perfect solution, just an idea I'm throwing out there.

[Ermine]

Is there any specific date for when we reopen the forum for new users? IMO that date is coming soon, but you never know.

[Ogion]

No reopening date planned atm (that i knew of).

Ogion

[Anthile]

Well, nothing will happen about this before the board software update.

[Adaire]

Any new details in regards to opening the forum again?

[loveofreason]

...unless Ragnar comes riding into town in a blaze of trumpet fanfare.....?

ummm.... no...

maybe.....

depends...


for fucks sake... as soon as the hallucinations stop... ok?


(ie. well... maybe Jesin is ok, I wouldn't know... but I'm a total basket case and the admin we need to do the job has vanished... so... yeah...)

[Adaire]

It's all good.
I'm not rushing you, just trying to stay up-to-date :)

[Toad]

Does it feel like the forum is dieing without new members? Or is it just that the old members are gone.

[Cryss Winters]

I miss new blood.

[Sapphire Harp]

Does it feel like the forum is dying without new members? Or is it just that the old members are gone.
I disagree entirely! There are an awful lot of new members who weren't receiving any notice amidst the waves of drama rolling through the place. With things calm and quiet, it's definitely a chance for them to come into their own - and for the rest of us really notice and engage them.

In fact, the first two weeks after the closure, it still seemed so much like new people were joining, I felt like double checking to make sure the closure happened. :p

If things keep on for a few more months this way, then... yea. I'd definitely start growing concerned... but I think dealing with the software upgrades and hosting issues is a worthwhile thing, too... That forum crash was a particularly bad event, in my opinion.

P.S. Quotation spelling corrected. :p

[Ragnar]

Forum opened again, if anyone reading this gets confused.