Zen Christianity?

[eudemonia]

I recently met an older man living in Raleigh, North Carolina. Traditional, elegant, patrician but warm he seemed to come from another era. Unsurprisingly a Christian, living where he did, but widely travelled and interested in other cultures. He claimed he was a Zen Christian. Unfortunatley, we did not have a chance to explore this conversation - it was a conference and he was the main sponsor, so getting to talk to him was difficult. However, I found out that he practised Tai Kwando and Tai Chi as well as being a deeply committed Christian. He claimed that these techniques helped him nurture his spirituality and supported his sense of connectedness with God/the transcendent.

I suppose that this is really aimed at Eloquent Bohemian. I am wondering if Zen is a religion or philosophy and what your views are on this. I recently approached a meditation teacher, connected to the school of TM in London. He was willing to teach me but he wanted me to go to London for a weekend of teaching, at the end of which I would be expected to go through a small ceremony in hindu which involved offering flowers and other objects to a picture of a guru. You can imagine how I responded to that!

So, anyone who is interested and knowledgeble in this area:

is it possible to be a Zen Christian without being accused of syncretism?

what would you recommend to someone who wanted to learn more about zen philosophy and meditation, yet still retain their Christian faith?

[Ogion]

Although i am not addressed i would like to say something: If you deeply belive god to be the creator and these things, then why wouldn't you be 'allowed' to appreciate Zen? It does seem odd to me that one would reject that, it being part of Gods creation. God may well have chosen to reveal himself to the Indian people through Buddha and his teachings, no? Anyhow the Buddhists seem to have come to many wisdoms, why would they have to rejected simply from not coming from a christian?

Just some things from someone who is not religious, feel free to ignore it when it misses the point.

Ogion

[Jordan~]

Buddhism's non-theistic, isn't it? And a great deal of it's compatible with Christianity anyway. I don't see why you can't practice a non-theistic faith and a theistic faith side by side.

[Inappropriate Behavior]

A Zen Christian? Living in my back yard? Well actually that isn't that surprising to me. He might have some problems being open about that in some of the rural areas of my state but that is more the product of ignorance and the sort of totalitarian nature some people apply to their religion. That it comes from Raleigh is less of a surprise.

Anyway, I think it is syncretic in a way but I've found that that is part of a neuvo religious movement taking place in parts of this country. It's hard for me to comment in detail on it since I don't know or follow what all is going on. "Traditional Christianity" seems to be actually diminishing but is being replaced by....um....well I'd guess you could describe it as a more disparate, even "New Age(ish)" movement. The number of theological difference amongst Christians in this country is just mind boggling. The days of Protestant or Catholic are gone. Even Catholicism in this country often goes it's own direction.

I'm doing a terrible job at explaining myself.

[Reverse Transcriptase]

I was campaigning for the Iowa primaries with 80 other college students at our camp. There were two Christian Taoists (they hadn't known of each other before they showed up- it was pretty amusing).

The ChristianTaoist I spoke to did not put very much emphasis on the Bible... he didn't even bother with deciding for himself whether the Bible stories are real or not. His point was that the philosophy is a good one to live by, and so he is living by it.

He told me this after I asked him if he believed that Jesus walked the earth.
There's pretty strong evidence that Jesus never walked the earth- that he only existed in a spiritual realm. Paul of Tarsis wrote many letters, that we still have, that never put Jesus on earth. Paul of Tarsis spread the good news of Jesus' sacrifice for a few decades soon after Jesus' death, and then the Gospels were written. If Jesus had been a real person.. Paul should have known about it.

[eudemonia]

Thanks for all your replies guys.

@Ogion - absolutely valid point. I am not making any claim about anyone else's religion or about the exclusivity of my own.

This follows on from a dicussion I had with Cryptonia, EB, and NoID10ts about spirituality.Following that I made a very personal decision that I needed to find out more about my own faith - study more theology etc as there were many gaps in my knowledge. I am a postmodern Christian which takes a more liberal view of the bible, of revelation and of other faiths. But something that Cryptonia said struck me and this relates to civilianjones and Inappropriate Behaviours point. Sloppy thinking can hijack the very meaning of the word Christian so that, like in your examples, christianity becomes just a good philosophy to live by. I don't want to be a part of that process.

I am very happy to study other faiths but I particularly need to gain a deeper understanding of my own. Then of course gain a deeper understanding of the other. And then, after contemplation, study and prayer explore the synergies, if any.

Postmodernism is too often an excuse for a lazy pick and mix approach and very easily becomes a vague kind of new ageism. Fine if that's what you want but that's not what's on my agenda right now.

The whole notion of postmodern christianity is exciting but for me should rest on a rigorous theology.

The question is not whether I should study other belief systems but rather the implications of blending them really before I know as much as I should about either.

There, I think I have answered my own question! But I would like to gain the insights of others who have gone down this path before me.

[EloquentBohemian]

I suppose that this is really aimed at Eloquent Bohemian. I am wondering if Zen is a religion or philosophy and what your views are on this.
The first thing a Zen master will tell you is that there is no such thing as Zen and that you can't attain enlightenment by sitting in meditation any more than you could make a duck out of a rock.
What is Zen?
Damn good question.:D
It's really not a religion in the organised way Westerners think of it.
Zen is Buddhism arriving in China, mixing with Taoism and a little Confuscianism where it is named Ch'an, and then arriving in Japan where Ch'an was translated to Zen.
Though there are "scriptures", which are called sutras (I have a couple of favourites), there is no reliance on them for 'achieveing' enlightenment. This is a purely personal thing.

Basically, and I'm paraphrasing here (...and would probably get whacked across the head by a roshi) Zen is about freeing one's mind from the constant chatter of thought (he he ...like an INTP can do that) so that your "Buddha-nature" comes to the fore.
It's about letting your thoughts go, not grasping on to them.
Thoughts should drift through your mind like clouds through the sky.
It's about non-attachment, which doesn't mean non-involvement, but not holding on to anything.
In my opinion, (...I can feel a whack coming), it is sort of like a gentle mystics way. No striving. No self-recrimination. No striving for purity or such. It's more about just being.

If you are interested in Zen, a good place to start is to read some Alan Watts. He is sort of a 'rogue Zen' kind of fellow who was Anglican while he studied Zen. Wikipedia has a good article on him.
Another is Thomas Merton, a Trappist monk and priest.

I recently approached a meditation teacher, connected to the school of TM in London. He was willing to teach me but he wanted me to go to London for a weekend of teaching, at the end of which I would be expected to go through a small ceremony in hindu which involved offering flowers and other objects to a picture of a guru. You can imagine how I responded to that!Transcendental Meditation is nothing like Zen. TM stems from Hindu gurus arriving in the West from India. TM is a very weak version of the path of the Hindu ascetic. You must dedicate yourself to your guru and trust your spiritual enlightenment to him.

is it possible to be a Zen Christian without being accused of syncretism?In a word, yes, though others may see it as syncretism. There are no tenets within Zen which would counteract Christian beliefs.

what would you recommend to someone who wanted to learn more about zen philosophy and meditation, yet still retain their Christian faith?Reading some Alan Watts.
D.T. Suzuki is the one who brought Zen to the most attention in the West. He has written much on Zen.
Philip Kapleau is another good author and translator of Zen texts.

There are two main schools of Zen.
They both use meditation as a foundation, but Rinzai utilizes koans to aid in silencing the mind's chatter.
("what is the sound of one hand clapping" and "If a tree falls in the forest..." are Zen koans)
The Soto school is mainly long periods of meditation.
Philip Kapleau mixed the two schools and created the Sanbo Kyodan school. The main center is in Rochester, New York.
I prefer Rinzai because I love the koans.
My favourite book is The Gateless Barrier, a collection of koans and stories. Some editions have 'interpretations' by Zen masters (...which are just as confusing:D), some do not.

Over and above all this, find someone who is in Zen. Talk with them. Go to some Zen centers in your area.

[NoID10ts]

My favorite (christian) college professor was always talking about the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." He loved the book, but I never read it. he was also a philosophy professor.

When you start mixing religious/philosophical views are you in danger of proclaiming that Christianity by itself is not enough?


-Warning - If you don't want to hear the smart ass portion of this post please read no further, if you do read it, don't take it too seriously - :eek:

Also, I wonder if I could start a franchise of religious institutions, kind of like Starbucks, that will mix and match assorted religious parts to make a customized religion for each individual. I can hear a customer now:

"Yes I would like a low-sacrifice Christianity on ice, hold the theology, with a little Islam on top, and some Scientology sprinkles just to keep things fun. Can I get that in a small? I'm watching my religious intake. Thanks."

I think this could be wonderfully popular. I bet I could get Oprah Winfrey to be my spokes woman. What do you guys think? :D

[EloquentBohemian]

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance has little to do with Zen and not much to do with motorcycle maintenance either, but it has much to do with the question of 'Quality'.

Also, I wonder if I could start a franchise of religious institutions, kind of like Starbucks, that will mix and match assorted religious parts to make a customized religion for each individual. I can hear a customer now:

"Yes I would like a low-sacrifice Christianity on ice, hold the theology, with a little Islam on top, and some Scientology sprinkles just to keep things fun. Can I get that in a small? I'm watching my religious intake. Thanks."...and do you give Air Miles?
(...this is why I love this forum:D)

When you start mixing religious/philosophical views are you in danger of proclaiming that Christianity by itself is not enough?I look at it more as enhancing your primary belief. Zen is about calming and freeing your mind. It's about seeing your "Buddha-nature", which in Christian terms would be like seeing your Christ-nature, would it not?

[eudemonia]

My favorite (christian) college professor was always talking about the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance." He loved the book, but I never read it. he was also a philosophy professor.

You were obviously struck by your professor's enthusiasm but didn't take up his suggestion - any reason why?

When you start mixing religious/philosophical views are you in danger of proclaiming that Christianity by itself is not enough?

what strikes me in this quote is the word 'danger' and what I associate with danger is 'fear'. Perhaps this is what truly prevents Christians opening up their minds to even studying other worldviews. They fear what they might lose. However, if you do not explore the terrain, you also lose. This is what I fear, losing my relevance, ability to communicate and relate to others outside the Christian community. I fear losing my abundance and creativity.


-Warning - If you don't want to hear the smart ass portion of this post please read no further, if you do read it, don't take it too seriously -

Now, NoID10ts, you're not wary of how I might respond are you? Can't imagine why :D

Also, I wonder if I could start a franchise of religious institutions, kind of like Starbucks, that will mix and match assorted religious parts to make a customized religion for each individual. I can hear a customer now:

"Yes I would like a low-sacrifice Christianity on ice, hold the theology, with a little Islam on top, and some Scientology sprinkles just to keep things fun. Can I get that in a small? I'm watching my religious intake. Thanks."

I think this could be wonderfully popular. I bet I could get Oprah Winfrey to be my spokes woman. What do you guys think? :D

You know, for a functional atheist, you do a marvellous job of defending your ex faith. Still a little bit protective of it????

Hmmm, lets say God is the coffee bean, faith is the desire for coffee, my religion is black coffee and I see other religions as the milk, sprinkles, essences and size of cup. Well, I want the coffee (that's my faith), I like mine black and will never change (I'll always be a Christian) but what's wrong with trying out the sprinkles? What might I learn? Do I not trust God to keep me on track (he's done a bloody good job so far)? Oh and whilst I am doing that I am working on making the best black coffee in the world. What's there to fear? I am not going to go round evangelising for Oprah (who by the way, I have never seen and know nothing about). It's about deepening my own faith, knowledge and experience - not being narrow minded and understanding more about my own faith by understanding others.

Love the analogy even if I tortured it a bit - now will you stamp my card? :rolleyes:

[FusionKnight]

When you start mixing religious/philosophical views are you in danger of proclaiming that Christianity by itself is not enough?

I look at it more as enhancing your primary belief. Zen is about calming and freeing your mind. It's about seeing your "Buddha-nature", which in Christian terms would be like seeing your Christ-nature, would it not?

Perhaps Christianity is the what and why, and Zen could help with the "how"?

I generally think non-religious eastern philosophies have a lot to contribute, but so many times they are steeped in a culture that does contain elements incompatible with Christianity. Animism, for example, seems to be mixed in with most eastern philosophies.

[eudemonia]

Perhaps Christianity is the what and why, and Zen could help with the "how"?

I generally think non-religious eastern philosophies have a lot to contribute, but so many times they are steeped in a culture that does contain elements incompatible with Christianity. Animism, for example, seems to be mixed in with most eastern philosophies.

thanks FusionKnight - that's exactly how I see it. And to identify the elements incompatible with Christianity requires you to be rooted in sound theological thinking and discipline.

[eudemonia]

sorry for double post - I just want to thank EloquentBohemian for coming to the rescue - again. I like the idea of contacting a zen practitioner, it's just that where I live this will take a long time. In the meantime, I can continue the reading. the differentiation between TM and Zen was very helpful and explained a lot.

I often think it sounds as if I don't do my own research but so little time and so many books to read. At the moment I have a pile of over 15 for pleasure and more for work :eek: I've got a lot of catching up to do. Oh for the luxury of being at university.:(

[NoID10ts]

@EB - I will offer air miles but only for the crappiest of airlines and only to locales that have my franchises already well established.

Also, I never read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", it never really sparked my curiosity enough to read it, so I know very little about it, I only mentioned it because Nia mentioned the "Zen Christian".

@Nia - I'm banning you from my franchise. ;)


Frankly, I don't care what you believe, and I couldn't care less how much anyone waters down Christianity (I watered it down to nothing!). I don't think I am protective of Christianity, but I guess I seek clarity, and sometimes I just see muddiness. I respect people who have the courage of their convictions even if I profoundly disagree with them. I'm not accusing anyone of playing mix and match on this forum, but I like testing the waters and seeing how you all respond. I know you seek clarity as well. I just like being a fly in the ointment, I guess. :rolleyes:

I will say that, to me, as an atheist, I see these types of discussions as some sort of acknowledgment that your primary religion is not enough. It must be supplemented. If you call yourself a Christian, you are, by definition, a follower of Christ. Christ himself emerged from the Jewish tradition. What supplements did he add? If you believe Christ was the messiah, the very son of God, than why look beyond him? Can you not grow, and seek, and mature focused solely on him, his teachings, and his life? Does god incarnate not have what you need?

I say he doesn't have what you need and that is why you still seek. :eek:

You may now crucify me, but don't expect me to come back from the grave! :D

[FusionKnight]

I guess I don't understand what "religion" is, and I generally despise what that word often implies. Christianity to me, is just reality, truth. It's not a system, it's not a "club" it's not an organization or a movement. It just is. So to me, anything that doesn't deny that ultimate truth can also be truth.

To clarify, I guess I don't see Christianity and Zen as being different but equivalent. Christianity is like owning a boat. Zen is like learning how to change the oil in your boat. Not equivalent things, but the one helps the other function.

You wouldn't say that studying culinary arts is "superfluous" to Christianity just because Jesus wasn't a chef, would you? Yet it ads value to the world, to the body of believers, and to yourself. Same goes for science, music, philosophy, sports, entertainment, relationships, politics, etc.

I don't know much about Zen, but what I do know suggests that it's a field of knowledge and research into mastery or realization of self. Knowing yourself is a critical component of relating to God. Though I think knowing God is a better way of learning about yourself, I don't think learning other ways are "watering down" Christianity. MBTI, Zen, University, Boy Scouts, are all ways we learn to be who we are. I guess I'm missing the part where this has anything to do with Christianity, or is a "threat" to it.

[Agent Intellect]

i don't have a problem with religious philosophy (except when its used for bad things). its usually the mythology that i have a big problem with. i think christian philosophy is great, the ten commandments are certainly good, moral rules that are beneficial to society, caring for the sick and poor is great, but i just don't see why God is needed for these things to still be a part of society.

i'll admit, i really don't know much about eastern philosophies, and i might check out some of those books that were suggested. having people talk about things i don't understand is probably the most infuriating thing to me, it makes me think i'm deficient in some area :p

[NoID10ts]

I guess I don't understand what "religion" is, and I generally despise what that word often implies. Christianity to me, is just reality, truth. It's not a system, it's not a "club" it's not an organization or a movement. It just is. So to me, anything that doesn't deny that ultimate truth can also be truth.

To clarify, I guess I don't see Christianity and Zen as being different but equivalent. Christianity is like owning a boat. Zen is like learning how to change the oil in your boat. Not equivalent things, but the one helps the other function.

You wouldn't say that studying culinary arts is "superfluous" to Christianity just because Jesus wasn't a chef, would you? Yet it ads value to the world, to the body of believers, and to yourself. Same goes for science, music, philosophy, sports, entertainment, relationships, politics, etc.

I don't know much about Zen, but what I do know suggests that it's a field of knowledge and research into mastery or realization of self. Knowing yourself is a critical component of relating to God. Though I think knowing God is a better way of learning about yourself, I don't think learning other ways are "watering down" Christianity. MBTI, Zen, University, Boy Scouts, are all ways we learn to be who we are. I guess I'm missing the part where this has anything to do with Christianity, or is a "threat" to it.

I actually agree with you here, sometimes I forget the threads I am posting on. I wasn't intending to single out Zen in particular, so I probably shouldn't have posted that here. Eastern religions in general are actually more philosophy than religion and philosophy does not necessarily have to run counter to Christianity, in fact some of the greatest philosophers were Christians.

Of course, my view, is that there are so many versions of the "truth", or pieces of the "truth" (contradictory ones at that), because they eminate out from human beings and not from an external source of truth. "Truth" is ambiguos and subjective. If God is truth, than why worship the truth if you can't possibly know what the truth is? If you say I can know the truth, whose version of it should I accept?

Theology has become a very convoluted and complex web of give and take. It always seems to be in flux, retreating and conforming as new data comes in. I am amazed at how, over the centuries, more and more of the Bible becomes "figurative". I wonder where it will stop.


But all of that is for another thread. I fear I don't make damn bit of sense in all this. Sometimes I am surprised at the responses I get and think "why did they respond that way?", but I am the common denominator in all of that. I suspect I should just stick to the "fun" threads until I find a way to convey my thoughts more accurately. :D

[FusionKnight]

I find your comments very valuable. They always make me think, and respond.

[eudemonia]

I expect its just me that winds you up. I find your posts thoughtful and provocative. But you guys know more than me and probably react in more objective and purely philosiphical way. I'll just observe the discussion. Ill learn just as much and won't wind anyone up

Just to explain myself. I am interested as I mentioned before, in the monastic tradition of christianity. However we have lost much of that knowledge and more important practice. Frankly the monk I know isn't that much help here. He tells me to practice lectio divina but doesn't provide much help re putting it into practice. And what about contemplative and meditative prayer. I'm sure there must be some practices here but its difficult to find help. Its just that Zen seems to have nourished those practices that mainstream Christianity has ignored over the past 400 years.

Mybe I don't need help and can just read a book and put it into practice. I don't know. Maybe I'm making a big fuss over nothing.

Ps why am I banned? Did I really piss you off?

[FusionKnight]

Just to explain myself. I am interested as I mentioned before, in the monastic tradition of Christianity. And what about contemplative and meditative prayer. I'm sure there must be some practices here but its difficult to find help. Its just that Zen seems to have nourished those practices that mainstream Christianity has ignored over the past 400 years.

Nia, I think you're on to something critical here. I'll use your terminology: contemplative and meditative prayer. This is something that cannot be done in the middle of the 21st century daily urban bustle. I think eastern philosophers know this well, as do the monastic traditions of Christianity. After all, didn't Jesus retreat to the wilderness, or to the solitude of the Mount of Olives when he needed to reconnect with God?

This is a major struggle for me in my life, one that I've all but given up on lately. Like I said before in another thread, daily "quiet times" of prayer and reflection are totally absent from my life, despite my deep desire to have them. I think part of the problem is that there is no quite time in my life. It's either filled up by external activities, or I fill it up with my own internal jabbering.

I feel this strong urge to get away to the wilderness to find God, but I can never seem to escape "real life". Much of what John Eldredge wrote in Wild at Heart speaks to me in this regard.

[NoID10ts]

@eudomonia

You didn't piss me off or wind me up! I'm just playing around. I am always my own worst critic and I go back and read through my posts or I read responses and think "I'm not being very clear" or "I must sound like a moron". I have always had terrible self esteem issues and just tear myself apart over everything. It doesn't have anything to do with anyone but me!

I like reading your posts and believe it or not they do have an effect on me. I know that if ever I did return to the fold, it would be a very different kind of faith than previously held. As a theology student, I was exposed to many of the views that are held here, but I was taught how to find holes in them. I'm seeing now that maybe the views have more merit than I gave them credit for. It's hard processing new theological views when I no longer hold any myself.

[eudemonia]

Nia, I think you're on to something critical here. I'll use your terminology: contemplative and meditative prayer. This is something that cannot be done in the middle of the 21st century daily urban bustle. I think eastern philosophers know this well, as do the monastic traditions of Christianity. After all, didn't Jesus retreat to the wilderness, or to the solitude of the Mount of Olives when he needed to reconnect with God?

This is a major struggle for me in my life, one that I've all but given up on lately. Like I said before in another thread, daily "quiet times" of prayer and reflection are totally absent from my life, despite my deep desire to have them. I think part of the problem is that there is no quite time in my life. It's either filled up by external activities, or I fill it up with my own internal jabbering.

I feel this strong urge to get away to the wilderness to find God, but I can never seem to escape "real life". Much of what John Eldredge wrote in Wild at Heart speaks to me in this regard.

Thank you Fusion Knight for having the courage to say everything I feel and have felt for some time. I was too worried about saying it here as I thought it would be misunderstood or leapt upon.

I do have this desire that I do not know how to meet. Simple prayer,attending church and perfunctorily reading the bible do not provide the fulfilment I seek. Its not that Christ does not provide what I'm looking for but rather the religion as I practise it doesn't. I somehow want more than that.It is about being alone with God and giving him space and time to transform and challenge me.

Alison Donaldson has written a book called the Wild Gospel. I need to find the wildness in the Christian faith. I sometimes think we have tamed Christianity out of existence.
Maybe just as relevant, I think people seeking faith want that wildness too.

@NoID10ts - thanks. I have self esteem issues too esp when reading everyone elses posts. .

[NoID10ts]

Maybe none of us is as dumb or as smart as we think we are.

Nia, I think you are doing well. You are actively engaged and seeking to push forward in your faith. You are far beyond many people who call themselves Christians (dare I say most) in your knowledge and understanding of the faith. Just keep pressing forward, what more can you do?

BTW, if you want wild just read "Revelation". According to it, I just might be the anti Christ! :eek:

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Maybe none of us is as dumb or as smart as we think we are.

Nia, I think you are doing well. You are actively engaged and seeking to push forward in your faith. You are far beyond many people who call themselves Christians (dare I say most) in your knowledge and understanding of the faith. Just keep pressing forward, what more can you do?

BTW, if you want wild just read "Revelation". According to it, I just might be the anti Christ! :eek:

Show us your hands. Do you have the mark?
Well I am from the school that says the events of Revelation already happened so I guess I have nothing to fear :phear:. I'm going off topic huh? Well this thread is a great read and I have little of substance to add so I might as well.

I think your....what do you call your franchice ChristBucks? I think your franchise idea is actually a most pertinent analogy of how some (read as thinkers) are seeking more than they are finding within the limitations of any given religion. Perhaps the right blend will strike the customers as Truth. That's the best anyone seeking a spiritual awakening as it were can hope for.

[NoID10ts]

Show us your hands. Do you have the mark?
Well I am from the school that says the events of Revelation already happened so I guess I have nothing to fear :phear:. I'm going off topic huh? Well this thread is a great read and I have little of substance to add so I might as well.

I think your....what do you call your franchice ChristBucks? I think your franchise idea is actually a most pertinent analogy of how some (read as thinkers) are seeking more than they are finding within the limitations of any given religion. Perhaps the right blend will strike the customers as Truth. That's the best anyone seeking a spiritual awakening as it were can hope for.

I do have a lot of freckles on the back of my hand. If you connect the dots just right you can make a 666. That being said, I'm pretty sure you can trace out the image of the Virgin Mary as well. Shit, I might be some sort of Holy Relic! Maybe I can charge money for a peek at my Holy freckles. :eek:

I was actually in the "it already happened" camp as well with regards to Revelation. At least for the most part.

And, "ChristBucks" is good, but I need something more encompassing like "StarDelusions". :D

[Agent Intellect]

do atheists just get an empty cup?

[Inappropriate Behavior]

Atheists get an apple from the tree of knowledge.

Sorry I had to say it but sometimes I got to earn my name :D

[EloquentBohemian]

Nia, I think you're on to something critical here. I'll use your terminology: contemplative and meditative prayer. This is something that cannot be done in the middle of the 21st century daily urban bustle. I think eastern philosophers know this well, as do the monastic traditions of Christianity. After all, didn't Jesus retreat to the wilderness, or to the solitude of the Mount of Olives when he needed to reconnect with God?
Contemplation and meditation. This is some thing that Humanity has lost. We are in such a rush to 'get somewhere' that we have lost the 'somewhere' we are trying to get. Speed is of the essence now. Very few of us "stop to smell the roses", instead we by artificial rose fragrance and spray it around our homes.
It's like God by FedEx or something.
Zen is all about stopping, sitting and quieting the mind. It is about concentrating on 'no-thing'. It is about asking 'who is doing the doing'.

This is a major struggle for me in my life, one that I've all but given up on lately. Like I said before in another thread, daily "quiet times" of prayer and reflection are totally absent from my life, despite my deep desire to have them. I think part of the problem is that there is no quite time in my life. It's either filled up by external activities, or I fill it up with my own internal jabbering.

I feel this strong urge to get away to the wilderness to find God, but I can never seem to escape "real life". Much of what John Eldredge wrote in Wild at Heart speaks to me in this regard.What I put in bold letters in your quote is the crux.
Busy. Busy. Busy.
One has to learn to say "No".
Zen is not about giving up 'things' and living simply. Zen is about just being where you are.
My favourite word is nowhere, because it can be split into the two most important words in Life, now and here.
Zen is about being now and here.
For a Christian, is it not all about letting Christ into your heart?
Do you not ask Christ to come into your heart?
But, if you're running around doing this, that and the other thing, how's He going to find you?
I have this image of Christ in running shoes huffing and puffing after you as you zoom off in your mini-van to do shopping, meetings, whatever.:D

Thank you Fusion Knight for having the courage to say everything I feel and have felt for some time. I was too worried about saying it here as I thought it would be misunderstood or leapt upon.
As far as I'm concerned, speak your mind (and heart). Truth (...and there's that word again) can be arrived at only if one speaks what one thinks and feels.

I do have this desire that I do not know how to meet. Simple prayer,attending church and perfunctorily reading the bible do not provide the fulfilment I seek. Its not that Christ does not provide what I'm looking for but rather the religion as I practise it doesn't. I somehow want more than that.It is about being alone with God and giving him space and time to transform and challenge me.

Alison Donaldson has written a book called the Wild Gospel. I need to find the wildness in the Christian faith. I sometimes think we have tamed Christianity out of existence.
Maybe just as relevant, I think people seeking faith want that wildness too.
There is a degree of prayer called orison. Though the word orison means prayer, it has come to mean more. It has come to mean mystical prayer. It has nothing in common with formal devotion and detailed petition, such as prayer does. It is not something asked for or a duty done. It is not articulate. It has no form. It is "naught else but yearning of the soul, an expression of metaphysical thirst". It is a "very simple attention of the mind" and "an equally simple application of the will".
(all quotes from Mysticism, E. Underhill, pg 306)

Sounds pretty close to Zen to me.

For a Christian, it's all about loving Christ.
Christ already loves you, you must allow His love to flow into you and love Him in return.
This can't happen if you are busy with other things.
Love is a verb. Love is an act. And in the terms of this act with Christ, it is an act of no action. A Zen 'principle", if you will.

Quietness of the mind is not found just in Zen, mystics of every faith have spoken of retreat and quiet and solitude in order to "hear the voice which has no sound", to hear the sound of the tree falling in the forest, to hear the sound of one hand clapping.

I can speak of this in Christianity because of the clear meaning of Hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is "cultivating the ability to understand things from somebody else's point of view, and to appreciate the cultural and social forces that may have influenced their outlook"(Wikipedia).
I may not believe in Christ or God, but I can see the parallels in many other beliefs, both spiritual and secular, and I attempt to see, as humanly possible, as one who is Christian sees. This means setting aside (not being attached to) my own conceptions.
The "space" an artist gets into when working on a painting that one is deeply involved with is a form of orison/meditation/contemplation.

[FusionKnight]

There is a degree of prayer called orison. Though the word orison means prayer, it has come to mean more. It has come to mean mystical prayer. It has nothing in common with formal devotion and detailed petition, such as prayer does. It is not something asked for or a duty done. It is not articulate. It has no form. It is "naught else but yearning of the soul, an expression of metaphysical thirst". It is a "very simple attention of the mind" and "an equally simple application of the will".
(all quotes from Mysticism, E. Underhill, pg 306)

Romans 8:26

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

[NoID10ts]

Romans 8:26

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."

Ah, Romans! Now you're getting into the fun stuff! Romans 9-11 has been the cause of many a baptist screaming match! All that predestination stuff becomes very uncomfortable. :D

Sorry, don't mind me. Nothing to do with Zen. Carry on.

[Agent Intellect]

Zen kind of reminds me of Fight Club: tearing away all the worldly good, all the things we use to try to define ourselves or convey who we are, so that we can get down to the real "me", the personal ground of being. even if that means having to blow up all of your posessions, and denounce all the things you believe to be true, and your God (as those are things we use to define ourselves). sometimes you have to take yourself down to the bare minimum before you can build yourself back up.

[FusionKnight]

Matt 19:16-22

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[Artifice Orisit]

Touching on the Transhumanism issue, what would god’s opinion be if we obtained immortality via technology? Effectively using our possessions to cheat the "system" and in doing so being able to keep them forever. Christianity seems to assume I can't create my own version of heaven in this universe, deserving it or not.

An atypical Christian would probably tell me that I would incur the wrath of god, that I will be punished for consciously trying to "stick it to the man". But FusionKnight, you seem to have a very well developed idea of what "god", that is independent of traditional dogma.
What is your opinion?

Is this the dark side of Zen?
Is it the true enlightenment of Zen "all we are and all we need is the mind"?

[FusionKnight]

I guess I'm wondering why you think living forever in this world would be heaven... in my opinion, it'd be more like hell...

In that sense, if that's what you chose, I have a feeling God would let you run with it. It just may not be all you think it will be.

[EloquentBohemian]

Touching on the Transhumanism issue, what would god’s opinion be if we obtained immortality via technology? Effectively using our possessions to cheat the "system" and in doing so being able to keep them forever. Christianity seems to assume I can't create my own version of heaven in this universe, deserving it or not.

An atypical Christian would probably tell me that I would incur the wrath of god, that I will be punished for consciously trying to "stick it to the man". But FusionKnight, you seem to have a very well developed idea of what "god", that is independent of traditional dogma.
What is your opinion?

Is this the dark side of Zen?
Is it the true enlightenment of Zen "all we are and all we need is the mind"?
Shuzan held out his short staff and said, "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore its fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"


Two monks were arguing about a flag. One said, "The flag is moving."
The other said, "The wind is moving."
The sixth patriarch happened to be passing by. He told them, "Not wind, not flag; mind is moving."


A monk asked Tozan when he was weighing flax, "What is Buddha?"
Tozan said, "This flax weighs three pounds."

(- from The Gateless Barrier)


"There is no spoon."
(the Matrix)

[Artifice Orisit]

Hell? But I enjoy life, don't you?

I widely held philosophical concept is that people create their own hell in life; I see no reason why the reverse can't be true. When I try to imagine heaven I find myself imagining a universe that is in some way different to our own, but the implications always result in some form of hell.
The metaphor "life is a roller coaster" represents this beautifully; regardless of what parts you remove (ups, downs) the result is a straight track. If a straight track is your version of heaven or hell greatly depends upon your attitude, personally I think it would be hell. This implicates that for me at least, the up/down track is heaven; even if others would consider the excitement to be hell.
In this way the traditional concept of heaven and hell could also be creatively reversed depending upon what the person wants.

Hell: If you've played the game "Quake III Arena" you could understand how Hell could be a theme park of sorts; filled with sex, drugs, violence, pain and horror. People do enjoy horror films and some use pain to increase the high of sex. Pain in itself isn't much fun, however it sure makes a game of paintball more exciting doesn’t it? "Quake III Arena" + Asguard = Logical version of hell.

Heaven: The perfect retirement village resort, wonderfully relaxing for some and painfully boring for others. Wouldn’t you get bored if every day was the same perfect day, filled with irrepressibly happy people? You could try going “postal”, but in heaven your completely unable to disrupt others happiness; like being a player-killer in WoW with all the other players being intangible.

I should make a new thread where people can choose between the two.

Edit: "There is no Spoon", suppose I made a spoon bend with my mind; did I just delude myself into seeing a bent spoon, or was it already bending but only with an open mind can I perceive it.

[Agent Intellect]

i just hope that heaven isn't anything like church.

[FusionKnight]

Let me clarify: the world is a screwed up place; death, disease, poverty, hate, greed, disasters, depression, etc. I don't see any of this being solved in this world. Consequently my hope of heaven is that the things that are broken are fixed, the sick are made well, hate and greed and lust are cured, God and man can live together as they were meant to.

I guess I don't have a "traditional" conceptualization of heaven and hell; I take a more literal view of the restoration of the world mentioned in Revelations. I visualize heaven much as C.S. Lewis did in his writings (Perelandra, The Last Battle, The Great Divorce, etc.) as a real physical world where everything is "right". Where our will and God's finally agree. Where our sin-nature is finally expunged. Where we can finally see and know with clarity and certainty...

All that to say, in answer to your question, I don't think God would smite anybody who tried to become immortal through technology. I think success would be it's own punishment.

[eudemonia]

AI - for ideas of how church could be look at this youtube video on emergentvillage.com. They define church as cohorts:

"Cohorts are the localized and incarnational way that Emergent Village works. Around the U.S., friends of Emergent Village meet of their own accord, at their own time and place, and discuss what they choose. What binds the cohorts together is a common desire to be in robust and respectful conversation about things that matter."

http://emergentvillage.com/cohorts/

These people are describing what we are doing on this forum but face to face in homes, bars and coffee houses (so NoID10ts has got the right idea - there's a business opportunity here :D). It seems to me that emergent church = INTP heaven.

For an interesting discussion of emergent church by someone who was at the forefront of the movement:

http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2008/09/the-emerging-ch.html

(sorry can't get these links to work the short way)

So, I've just got back only to find Eloquent Bohemian's book recommendation awaiting me: Mysticism - The Nature and Development of Spritual Consciousness by Evelyn Underhill.

I was thinking about what Fusion and EB said on the plane and I've got too many questions to post here so I will have to discipline myself. First, here are some interesting quotes from the book for Fusion:

'In the mystics of the West, the highest forms of Divine Union impel the self to some sort of active, rather than passive life: and this is now recognized by the best authorities as the true distinction between Christian and non-Christian mysticism....'

and quoting Starbuck (a gift for NoID10ts :rolleyes:)
"The individual learns to transfer himself from a centre of self-activity into an organ of revelation of universal being, and to live a life of affection for and one-ness with, the larger life outside."'

Drawing on the examples of the Christian mystics such as St Teresa, St John of the Cross, St Francis of Assisi, St Ignatius Loyola, Eckhard... and many, many more, she says:

'It is true that in nearly every case such "great acvtives" have first left the world, as a necessary condition of establishing communion with that Aboslute Life which reinforced their own: for a mind distracted by the many cannot apprehend the One. Hence something equivalent to the solitude of the wilderness is an essential part of mystical education. But having established that communion, re-ordered their inner lives upon transcendent levels - being united with their Source, not merly in temporary ecstasies, but in virute of a permanent condition of the soul, they were impelled to abandon their solitude; and resumed in someway, their contact with the world in order to become the medium whereby that Life flowed out to other men'

@EloquentBohemian. You have probably noticed that I have been experiencing movement in my spiritual journey in my time on this forum. I suppose I feel like I am in the first stage in Underhill's description of the phases of the mystical life - awakening. I also find I can identify with Suzuki's description of the man herding the Ox. I feel I had a momentary glimpse of this nothingness - whilst being still at the very beginning of the journey, if this is possible. Looking back, I feel that the impelling force behind this experience was what you call orison. I have experienced this yearning for over 15 years, ever since I became a Christian.

So now, to continue this journey, there must be some discipline I suppose, some work. What might this work look like?

I need to get beyond petitionary prayer. I try to empty my mind - but often do this at the end of the day and fall asleep! I try to read the bible and practise meditative prayer (or this lectio divina) but all too often it doesn't connect. Is it simply a matter of keeping on and being disciplined? Or am I missing something?

thanks.

[Cabbo Pearimo]

There is no such thing as spirituality; you feel what you expect to feel, caused by the physiological reaction to 'belief'. Or I'm wrong.

[EloquentBohemian]

"Cohorts are the localized and incarnational way that Emergent Village works. Around the U.S., friends of Emergent Village meet of their own accord, at their own time and place, and discuss what they choose. What binds the cohorts together is a common desire to be in robust and respectful conversation about things that matter."
This is a interesting experiment which does sound like this forum.
I hope it continues and deepens.

@EloquentBohemian. You have probably noticed that I have been experiencing movement in my spiritual journey in my time on this forum.(he he) Really? ...hadn't noticed.;):D

I suppose I feel like I am in the first stage in Underhill's description of the phases of the mystical life - awakening. I also find I can identify with Suzuki's description of the man herding the Ox.If you don't have it, this is the original first verse of the 10 Bulls by Kakuan:

The Search for the Bull

In the pasture of this world, I endlessly push aside the tall grasses in search of the bull.
Following unnamed rivers, lost upon the interpenetrating paths of distant mountains,
My strength failing and my vitality exhausted,
I cannot find the bull.
I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night.

But who is lost here, the ox or the herder?

I feel I had a momentary glimpse of this nothingness - whilst being still at the very beginning of the journey, if this is possible. Looking back, I feel that the impelling force behind this experience was what you call orison. I have experienced this yearning for over 15 years, ever since I became a Christian.Looking back at your first experience, this 'being still', did it occur naturally, say a silent reverie in the midst of on-going life?
Are you attempting to capture that moment again?
Are you silently telling yourself to "be still and this experience will reoccur"?
Telling yourself to be still is not being still.
Are you telling your mind to stop chattering?
Is that not your mind chattering to itself to stop chattering?
It is like telling a child to be still. Just how long does a child stay still?
Forcing a child to be still doesn't work, but if you are mindful of the child and you allow the child to be, the child will eventually settle of the child's own accord.

The mind thinks. This is what it does, just like the lungs breathe and the heart beats. To empty the mind does not mean to make it empty, to have no thoughts, it means to lt the mind be to do what it does.
The metaphor is clouds in the sky. Let them drift through the sky, not focusing on any particular cloud(non-attachment). Eventually the sky will clear of clouds.
If one holds on to cloud after cloud, the clouds pile up.
And we all know what happens when clouds pile up.:eek:

So now, to continue this journey, there must be some discipline I suppose, some work. What might this work look like?It is the hardest work there is. It is the work of no-work.
(One of the aspects of Zen I like is its constant use of paradox.)
Work is striving. Work is 'doing something'. The discipline of Zen is the striving of non-striving. To work without 'working'.

("What? Are you kidding?!" she says "What lunacy is this, to work without working?" "I asked for direction, not 'Alice in Wonderland' riddles." "Are you crazy?")

Well.... yes


...and


...yes.:D

This is the aspect in Zen of 'crazy wisdom'.

We have all experienced that 'space' which occurs when one is so involved in something that time seems to disappear and one is in their own little world.
Or when you are sitting up somewhere high and looking over the landscape which fills your vision and the 'you' seems to disappear.
That is the 'empty mind'. Sort of.:p
But one cannot force this to happen any more than you can stop a child from being a child.

In terms of the Bull story, the bull is not lost, it is doing what bovines do naturally. It wanders. If you wander also, eventually your paths will cross and you have found the Bull.
And the Bull has found you.

In the words of "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy": Don't Panic.

I need to get beyond petitionary prayer. I try to empty my mind - but often do this at the end of the day and fall asleep! I try to read the bible and practise meditative prayer (or this lectio divina) but all too often it doesn't connect. Is it simply a matter of keeping on and being disciplined?How does one empty the mind by reading something which fills the mind?

Or am I missing something?Are you?
What is it that is missing, that is lost?
If you do not know what is missing, then how do you know what to look for?
Who is the 'I' that is missing something?


And taking a line from 'The Matrix' trilogy: "There is no bull."

...except probably everything I've said so far.

[eudemonia]

Letting go - just two tears, for nostalgia and insight.

In terms of the Bull story, the bull is not lost, it is doing what bovines do naturally. It wanders. If you wander also, eventually your paths will cross and you have found the Bull.
And the Bull has found you.

John 3: 7-8
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Thanks EB

[niterunner]

Greetings...

Here is a great into to zen meditation, for those interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csyCrcpDs58&eurl=http://www.yogagarden.jp/videos.html

Also a great book for basic meditation practices is "How to Meditate" by Lawrence LeShan

At turns I have been both a Christian and a Zen Buddhist. A central question for my participation in these faith traditions has been 'authenticity'. Is this something I really believe? As close or real as my next breath?

Another overarching component for this thread could be due to the desire to maintain social acceptance or appearance. Are there any closet Buddhists in the Christian fold? (I hope so!)

[EloquentBohemian]

@niterunner

First, a hearty "Welcome."
Second, some queries.
Were you initially Christian, Buddhist or some other Faith?
Do you practice both concurrently now or are they still two separate aspects?

Authenticity, an excellent question to ask. Which of these do you find more authentic to who you are?
Do you find they conflict in some ways and not others?

[EloquentBohemian]

John 3: 7-8
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

Thanks EB
No, I wouldn't be suprised:D and God's speed and companionship on your journey.
And thank you for the insights into a path not taken. I have learned from your posts.

[niterunner]

EB,

In many ways it often depends who I'm with. For those who are open to 'Zen Christianity' there is often a willingness to explore new insights and I can easily belong to either tradition. But as I ponder the question of authenticity, can I really say I'm an authentic X or Y? Certain important aspects strongly resonate with me and I warm to both traditions. (Equally warm to them? Likely more to the Zen side!)

NR

[eudemonia]

Hi Niterunner and a particular welcome to someone who is interested in 'zen christianity' - a term I made up with no expectation that there was a such a thing :D

Authenticity is a challenge within any religion. I liked Fusion Knight's perspective on this. For him, Christianity isn't a movement, a club, a religion it just 'is', it's reality. I feel most authentic when I relate to being a Christian in this way. As soon as I relate to it as a 'club' or even 'religion' I start to feel less authentic. For a start I don't know anyone in this club who has the same approach to their faith that I do so I don't feel like I 'belong' to their club. I love not belonging, that makes me feel authentic, but whenever I use the label 'Christian' I feel that all sorts of expectations and ideas are being projected onto me that are not accurate. For example, a friend referred to me on her blog recently as 'deeply religious'. I felt an overwhelming sense of revulsion - I am not deeply religious. I have a faith, that's all, and it happens to be Christian.

I would love to find out more about what it means to be a Zen Christian. I liked the video by the way - now all I need to do is to find the time to put it into practice. it has occurred to me that I could do this more easily if I spent less time on this forum.....:eek:

[niterunner]

Thank you for your welcome Eudemonia :)

I think INTP's tend to be more mystically inclined. And by that I mean that we discard many labels about religion as they are applied to us or in general. And we sift and we sort through many glaring contradictions. But we have a deep intuition of the Something Else...or perhaps Someone Else...that at times leaves a lump in our throat, even a raging desire to tear down the walls of this reality to see beyond this one.

Have you read any Frederick Bueckner? Pure gold. http://thinkexist.com/quotes/frederick_buechner/

[PhoenixRising]

I think you can be anything you want. Religion is something that man has created in order to try to understand and communicate with God. The point really isn't the religion, the titles, or the rituals, the point is getting in touch with your spirituality and with God. I believe that there are a few things a human being needs in order to truly feel fulfilled and live up to their full potential, a connection to God, connection to others, and connection to nature. I am what you would call a Zen Christian, I have a close relationship with Christ, but I do not believe in most of the rituals, limitations and rites that go along with the religion. I also practice transcendental meditation, herbal/natural healing, and study the writings of Taoism and other Eastern philosophies. God looks at the heart. He sees the beauty and love within, and that's really all He cares about. As long as love is what motivates you, there is no fault to be found in you.

[Da Blob]

I understand the value of altered states of consciousness. I understood the value of mediation, long before I converted to Christianity. Sometimes I think that many in the West do not connect prayer to meditation and think that somehow it is a matter of just saying the correct words to get a prayer answered.

I have often stated that the secret to prayer is the ability to hear the answers and those who practice meditation of one form or another, seem to know how to get in that state of mind to hear the 'small still voice' from within or see a small change in one's everyday life as a divine intervention.

I also believe that a personal relationship with one own 'Higher Power" is of prime importance, for seeing God through an Other's eyes, or a denominational or religious point of view is akin to being satisfied with a 'second hand' God. Yet that is a frustration of will and a vexation of spirit, so many humans seem satisfied with their lack of a personal relationship with their own creator - both believers and nonbelievers. There is always more of God that can be experienced by those who diligently seek Him. There is always more to the Artist and His Art than meets the eye.